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Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)

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Turn 19 (1612 Andyidh Dyadorn) Results
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    • Turn 19 (1612 Andyidh Dyadorn) Results

    +1 Treasury

    Spreading the Sacred Warding, Hung
    Needed: Irrelevant, Authority

    Your doctrines of demonic spirits seems to be setting off something of a revolution among the medicine men of the Central Empire. The working of the Sacred Warding is powerful evidence, but the Hung have their own doctrines that are also well attested. The conversations have apparently been quite fruitful, and some interesting advances have been made as their models and yours intermingle.

    [5/7]


    Touch the Cow, Do it Now, Greenshore:
    Needed: Irrelevant, Authority

    The priests can take the rest from here. Greenshore can rest easy now that the pox has once more been defeated in their lands.

    [Greenshore Loyalty now Solid]
    [3/3]


    Construct Warships, Salt Sea:
    Needed: 31+. Rolled: 13 Failure.

    Unexpected delays have continued to occur. It may be time to start asking some uncomfortable questions.

    [1/2]


    Influence: Construct Warships, Harmurri Gulf:
    Needed: 31+. Rolled: 80. Success.

    Work begins in earnest.

    [1/2]


    Influence: Construct Warships, Redshore:
    Needed: 31+. Rolled: 38. Success.

    Construction of new warships completes in Redshore.

    [2/2]
    [+1 Naval in Yllython Mor]


    Influence: Construct Warships, New Blackmouth:
    Needed: 31+. Rolled: 97. Success.

    Construction of new warships completes in New Blackmouth.

    [2/2]
    [+1 Naval in Yllython Mor]


    Honor of Elites, Western Wall
    Needed: N/A

    Western Wall's response is simply a quote from a famous play. The lines in question are traditionally considered the best insult ever penned in the language of the People.

    It's war then.

    [War Declared]


    Rage Against The Steppes!
    Needed: N/A.

    The response from the nomad barbarians is… unexpected. Instead of a refusal, they have offered terms.

    If you confirm the property in land and animals inherited from their fathers.
    If you grant them representation in your parliament.
    If you appoint as governor of the Plateau the current khan of the black sheep, and otherwise confirm the nomad "nobles" as the nobility going forward.

    Then they will swear fealty to the Stylus of Vallyhome.


    The advantages of accepting the deal are powerful and obvious. Balthazar knew that the Black Sheep were accounted a Major Power in their own right. To have them bend knee without a fight, on the first demand, would send a powerful message to the world. Furthermore, the forces of the Black Sheep could be used against Western Wall as well.

    The disadvantages were not as obvious, but might be as large or larger. To accept the deal would be to accept private property into the realm. It would in an instant make the Black Sheep the most powerful nobles in the kingdom behind the king. The other nobles would not stand for such disparity for long, they would demand the lands their families administered be turned into their own property. It would be only a matter of time, possibly as short as the next hundred years, before it happened.

    The Rexum Germanum stood as an example of what the worst case scenario of such a path might look like.

    Even so, could he really subject his people to a decade of grinding war on the grounds of such speculation?

    [] Accept (Private Property, +25 Prestige, Future Instability?, Serfdom?)
    [] Reject (War)


    Push Kus Numerals
    Needed: 2+. Rolled: 48. Success.

    A number of programs have been drawn up to teach the various numerate classes the Kus numerals. Initial results seem promising.

    [1/3]


    Activate The Mass Levy!: Black Sheep & Western Wall
    Needed: 16+. Rolled: 95+47+5=147. Success.

    The Melkut Ymaryn has called up an earth shaking force of nearly a million men. The ground quakes at their approach. The whole world sits up as they are reminded once more that the Kingdom of the People is not to be trifled with.

    [-1 Treasury, +1 Prestige every turn the Mass Levy is active to a maximum of 70]


    Personal: Activate The Mass Levy!

    -


    Rumor Mill:

    Khemetri King Retires: In what is presumed to be a bid to secure his succession, the King of KMT has retired in favor of his eldest son. The new king is said to be prideful and impetuous, but nonetheless skilled in administrative work. Time will tell if the old king will need to come out of retirement to shore up his son's reign, but thus far the bid to ensure a peaceful transition of power seems to have succeeded.

    Kus Famine ended!: The farms of Kus once more bring forth their bounty.




    Two Hour Moratorium

    OOC: Don't worry about how the choice will look, your people hate nomads enough that the idea of "refusing to reward them for their theft and oppression" will be an easy sell to your people. Also, one way or another, Txollan King will not be a concern going forward from here.
     
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    • On the one hand, I want to accept the terms because they seem reasonable, but they are politically and culturally unacceptable for the Ymaryn. For a more normal state, it would be a good deal, but for us, it looks like a poison apple due to our unique makeup.

    So I hate to do it, but I'm going to vote that reject and go to war.

    On another note, we will have 1 Authority and 6 Influence to use next turn with 1 Authority and 3 Influence being locked up in multi-turn actions.
     
    Property is theft, propertarians get rekt.

    On the other hand, this is weird. Did they go full native? But then they'd have adopted our customs around (lack of) land ownership. Are they still semi nomadic? If that's the case they'd care more about grazing rights and ownership of livestock than ownership of land, and I think we could live with nomads having exemptions for livestock as long as they have land use rather than land ownership rights.

    Is it possible we're misreading their demand a bit? Because I can't see how they settled on full on feudalism that quickly without it being common in the region or the way nomads work? If so can we talk them down to grazing rights and tribal ownership of livestock?
     
    Nyvis said:
    Property is theft, propertarians get rekt.

    On the other hand, this is weird. Did they go full native? But then they'd have adopted our customs around (lack of) land ownership. Are they still semi nomadic? If that's the case they'd care more about grazing rights and ownership of livestock than ownership of land, and I think we could live with nomads having exemptions for livestock as long as they have land use rather than land ownership rights.

    Is it possible we're misreading their demand a bit? Because I can't see how they settled on full on feudalism that quickly without it being common in the region or the way nomads work? If so can we talk them down to grazing rights and tribal ownership of livestock?
    Click to expand...
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    We've known since the first post in the thread that the Black Sheep have embraced feudalism though I can't remember exactly why that is the case off the top of my head, only that it is the case and has been for the entirety of the quest.
    Aranfan said:
    [] Black Sheep Empire
    Fuedalism Ho! Bring the glory of Private Property to the Ymaryn! You benefit from vigorous leadership and a relatively undepleted military. However, the other successors will all rightly consider you nomad savages, and may even ally against you to their own detriment, denying you any legitimacy unless you conquer at least the old borders of the Kingdom.
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    So, if we accept the terms, Western Wall is almost certainly an instant-win. It also seems plausible that we can start biting away at those privileges almost immediately. It also presumably results in a less rebellious population, a lot of Treasury saved in what will still probably be a multi-turn war, and less people dead on both sides.

    Therefore, I propose we accept the deal, and then immediately spend the next few turns that would have been war waiting for noble abuses to pop up, and then using that as a pretext to weaken them politically. It's going to happen, after all. And by waiting, I do mean inserting spies as well.
     
    Nyvis said:
    Property is theft, propertarians get rekt.

    On the other hand, this is weird. Did they go full native? But then they'd have adopted our customs around (lack of) land ownership. Are they still semi nomadic? If that's the case they'd care more about grazing rights and ownership of livestock than ownership of land, and I think we could live with nomads having exemptions for livestock as long as they have land use rather than land ownership rights.

    Is it possible we're misreading their demand a bit? Because I can't see how they settled on full on feudalism that quickly without it being common in the region or the way nomads work? If so can we talk them down to grazing rights and tribal ownership of livestock?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Right, so. Part of it is that the Black Sheep are a reference to a guy in the original quest who was super duper ultra into fuedalism. In character, I'm gonna say they basically imported Hung property relations when they took over, while also adopting a bunch of Ymaryn culture otherwise.
     
    ExNihilo said:
    So, if we accept the terms, Western Wall is almost certainly an instant-win. It also seems plausible that we can start biting away at those privileges almost immediately. It also presumably results in a less rebellious population, a lot of Treasury saved in what will still probably be a multi-turn war, and less people dead on both sides.

    Therefore, I propose we accept the deal, and then immediately spend the next few turns that would have been war waiting for noble abuses to pop up, and then using that as a pretext to weaken them politically. It's going to happen, after all. And by waiting, I do mean inserting spies as well.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    I'm not willing to take the chance that we will just be able to get rid of the downsides of accepting the deal so easily or that it will be us weakening their nobility and not our nobility strengthening their own privileges using the Black Sheep precedent.
     
    Aranfan said:
    Right, so. Part of it is that the Black Sheep are a reference to a guy in the original quest who was super duper ultra into fuedalism. In character, I'm gonna say they basically imported Hung property relations when they took over, while also adopting a bunch of Ymaryn culture otherwise.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Wait aren't the Hung China like? Which means they'd still have a more admin minded organization despite property relations.

    On the other hand, they probably wrecked our administration system so thoroughly there isn't any way to keep it running and their grazing habits won't answer what to do with the non nomadic population they conquered, so thrusting them in a feudal structure below the nomadic hosts make sense.

    Oshha said:
    I'm not willing to take the chance that we will just be able to get rid of the downsides of accepting the deal so easily or that it will be us weakening their nobility and not our nobility strengthening their own privileges using the Black Sheep precedent.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Yeah this sounds like a dangerous idea.

    But we're kinda backed into a corner or war or taking the deal now. And I'm worried about the overextension.
     
    Nyvis said:
    Wait aren't the Hung China like? Which means they'd still have a more admin minded organization despite property relations.

    On the other hand, they probably wrecked our administration system so thoroughly there isn't any way to keep it running and their grazing habits won't answer what to do with the non nomadic population they conquered, so thrusting them in a feudal structure below the nomadic hosts make sense.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    The Central Empire is basically exactly China.

    But the second paragraph is basically how I'm saying things went since it hopefully makes sense of why the Black Sheep went full feudalism so quickly.
     
    Something else worth considering is that +25 prestige puts us in third place, only 8-ish behind the total of the HRE and still a way behind Hung, passing Khem and even Magyar. I forget if prestige has any precise benefit, but it might be worth considering.
     
    Nyvis said:
    Yeah this sounds like a dangerous idea.

    But we're kinda backed into a corner or war or taking the deal now. And I'm worried about the overextension.
    Click to expand...
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    Going to war just means going back to our original plans. We were never actually planning for a peaceful resolution so turning one down doesn't mess up our plans. As for overextension, it is a risk, but we got one of the largest army in world marching on both of our enemies and we still got multiple reserves that we can commit in the form of the regular army, the Iron Flowers and Heaven's Hawks. Plus we might still be able to do a regular City Levy though I'm not sure about that we would want to avoid doing that if we can help it.

    ExNihilo said:
    Something else worth considering is that +25 prestige puts us in third place, only 8-ish behind the total of the HRE and still a way behind Hung, passing Khem and even Magyar. I forget if prestige has any precise benefit, but it might be worth considering.
    Click to expand...
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    Prestige gets us King of the Hill (which has minor bonuses) and more situationally, it strengthens both the chances the revanchists to continue existing after we take Western Wall and Thunder Plateau and us regaining the OVERWHELMING ARROGANCE that we lost during the Collapse. As things are, we were discussing ways on how we could lose prestige before the update dropped due to the latter things in my previous sentence.

    Edit: If it was just King of the Hill that we had to worry about, I wouldn't mind the prestige, but now I've remembered about how more prestige equals a higher than of regaining OVERWHELMING ARROGANCE, I consider the +25 Prestige from accepting the deal to be an argument for rejecting it.
     
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    Oshha said:
    Going to war just means going back to our original plans. We were never actually planning for a peaceful resolution so turning one down doesn't mess up our plans. As for overextension, it is a risk, but we got one of the largest army in world marching on both of our enemies and we still got multiple reserves that we can commit in the form of the regular army, the Iron Flowers and Heaven's Hawks. Plus we might still be able to do a regular City Levy though I'm not sure about that we would want to avoid doing that if we can help it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    It's administration overextension I'm most worried about, though the two fronts war is also an issue.
     
    Oshha said:
    Prestige gets us King of Hill (which has minor bonuses) and more situationally, it strengthens both the chances the revanchists to continue existing after we take Western Wall and Thunder Plateau and us regaining the OVERWHELMING ARROGANCE that we lost during the Collapse. As things are, we were discussing ways on how we could lose prestige before the update dropped due to the latter things in my previous sentence.
    Click to expand...
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    Oh right.

    Yeah that's my mind changed.
     
    Nyvis said:
    It's administration overextension I'm most worried about, though the two fronts war is also an issue.
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    Yeah, that is something of a concern, but one we are well-equipped to deal with. Worst comes to the worst, we will just have to promote some loyal and capable commoners instead of sending some of our spare nobles over.
     
    One thing to note is that Feudalism is not just private property. Feudal lords were pretty powerful, and it's quite likely that our highly centralized civ can not exist in a feudal manner. To go with feudalism means that we will quite rapidly see the gradual break-up of the Ymaryn Empire, as feudal lords on the edges of our society start making deals with their neighbors without consultation of the larger center.

    It's also likely to cause massive problems with our cities. These are net population negative, and are massive sources of central control (the city levies being unreproducible for any feudal lord). However, they rely on an influx of men and material from the countryside. If we implement serfdom, then the countryside people will be tied to their lands, starving the cities from the easy influx of labor upon which they rely.
     
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    Oh the irony in the original quest we turned ourselves into vassals of the Gylruv(not!Russia) in order to not get double teamed by not!Russia and the Black Sheep and we ended up assimilating Gylruv into us. Now its the black sheep doing it and now we might end up getting feudalism if we accept it oh how good this is.
     
    I want to talk about the sort of plans we could come up with next turn. Obviously we will want to prioritise war concerns and complications first and foremost, but beyond that, we can take quite a few action next turn and we got a free Authority to make use of. Beyond that, I want to take a loan from Pamplona for more Treasury and less Prestige. Abyss or one of the Kus nations could work, but they are a bit close to the Hung and I would rather that the Hung didn't get rumours of the Ymaryn needing to take out a loan if we can help it.

    Beyond that, we could try reaching out to Hellas and Pulska to open up diplomatic relations with them and maybe sell some guns to the minors of Kus and Germanum.
     
    10ebbor10 said:
    One thing to note is that Feudalism is not just private property. Feudal lords were pretty powerful, and it's quite likely that our highly centralized civ can not exist in a feudal manner. To go with feudalism means that we will quite rapidly see the gradual break-up of the Ymaryn Empire, as feudal lords on the edges of our society start making deals with their neighbors without consultation of the larger center.

    It's also likely to cause massive problems with our cities. These are net population negative, and are massive sources of central control (the city levies being unreproducible for any feudal lord). However, they rely on an influx of men and material from the countryside. If we implement serfdom, then the countryside people will be tied to their lands, starving the cities from the easy influx of labor upon which they rely.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    If you accept the deal, the nightmare scenario of being a realm of constant civil war like the HRE is actually fairly unlikely. Instead what is more likely to happen is that the Melkut Ymaryn will start going through a similar unification/division cycle as China, given how the kingdom has basically been hyper-centralized as much as possible basically forever. In such a case, while the core would always remain relevant due to their prestige and industry, it would be more likely for the political center of gravity to shift to either Hathytta or Thunder Plateau (or possibly Western Wall). Depending on how the civil wars fall out each time.

    This would still mean the end of the People's unique stability, of course.
     
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