Westernesse: A Númenórean Colony Quest
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
Zimmerwald1915
Revolutionary Defeatist
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Not even figuratively, either. Hazraban made two offers at the conference, both of which are improvements over his previous offer to surrender half his tributory lands to us: one to surrender all his suzerainty over the Middle Men to us, and one to renounce it entirely. For all his posturing, he remains surprisingly free with concessions.
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True, at the end of the day, Hazraban, is in his own words, the bastard son of a long forgotten Numeroian Lord whom he knows held his mothers side in brutal contempt. And also knows what Numanorion society holds in contempt of him. It actually reminds me quite a bit of a abusive relation between a father and their son, in which they become the very thing they hated for the fear he is afraid to make. Poor kid.
It is definitely going to be necessary to see Ironbark as our colony becomes hungrier for timber and firewood, but we have a few turns yet before that becomes a big issue, I think. Right now we don't have a shipyard up and running, and we don't have proper forges (we actually need the Dwarves or the Shapers to help us with that, as of the last update), so I think our wood consumption is mostly for domestic fuel, and there is not currently a mention of a domestic firewood crisis. Even when the shipyard is built, we still have fourteen serviceable small ships ready to go - right now we have no goods to put in them.
The first priority is goods to trade I think - we need the shaping hall, then a crafting hall and forges, as well as perhaps a quarry. Then this will in turn lead to things which will probably expand our demands for firewood and timber, at which point seeing Ironbark to try to hammer out a more sustainable settlement will probably become a necessity.
Yeah, this is a really good point.
One thing to remember with Hazraban, I think, is how desperate he is for approval, to be seen as legitimate and Númenórean, to have his people's long watch be taken seriously by a society which has disregarded them. All the posturing, the ridiculous gold armour, they're the actions of a frightened young man. Still a dangerous young man, to be sure, but he's not beyond our help.
If he didn't want Imrazôr's approval, then I flatly don't believe the offer we made before would have worked. We need to show him the best of what being a Númenórean can be, the things our people have nearly lost, what it means to be lordly without forsaking kindness.
@Telamon, could we invite a guest to come with us if we go to see Elrond?
The first priority is goods to trade I think - we need the shaping hall, then a crafting hall and forges, as well as perhaps a quarry. Then this will in turn lead to things which will probably expand our demands for firewood and timber, at which point seeing Ironbark to try to hammer out a more sustainable settlement will probably become a necessity.
True, at the end of the day, Hazraban, is in his own words, the bastard son of a long forgotten Numeroian Lord whom he knows held his mothers side in brutal contempt. And also knows what Numanorion society holds in contempt of him. It actually reminds me quite a bit of a abusive relation between a father and their son, in which they become the very thing they hated for the fear he is afraid to make. Poor kid.
Yeah, this is a really good point.
One thing to remember with Hazraban, I think, is how desperate he is for approval, to be seen as legitimate and Númenórean, to have his people's long watch be taken seriously by a society which has disregarded them. All the posturing, the ridiculous gold armour, they're the actions of a frightened young man. Still a dangerous young man, to be sure, but he's not beyond our help.
If he didn't want Imrazôr's approval, then I flatly don't believe the offer we made before would have worked. We need to show him the best of what being a Númenórean can be, the things our people have nearly lost, what it means to be lordly without forsaking kindness.
@Telamon, could we invite a guest to come with us if we go to see Elrond?
I'm inclined to vote for Doom, Unerring. Because it has Imrazor have the wisdom of not making decisions that can lead his people down a dangerous path when a man as learned as himself cannot even name the wordless things that has seized his heart, and the closed his throat. So best to have Imrazor seek somebody more learned than himself to give name, and shape to it less he sow a seed among his people that cannot be taken back.
Furthermore the words within the letter Elrond said are less coincidental, and more born from his ability to see how the Numenorean obsession with death will slowly twist what they do into ill deeds with the passage of time as their death grows inevitably closer for every generation. Also the Gift of Men is something I'd expect Elrond to have long pondered upon as it is what has separated him from his twin brother Elros until the world is broken, and remade anew at the earliest if ever.
Like even ignoring the game mechanics implication from being able to pick multiple options all the immediate avenues to help with the terror have problems imo.
Furthermore it draws the attention of the King upon us, and that seems like a bad idea given what is to come. This is made doubly so as the King of Numenor can fairly trivially ruin attempts to cooperate with the Men of Twilight due to their delicacy.
The bigger issue with this is political as this is a rather Faithful action, and should construction fall behind when the representative of the Shapers arrives... well word will travel when the cause is the construction of a temple to Eru when it is the only Shaper sponsored settlement.
Oh, and don't pick this with either of the first two options as that is liable to result in including a faction that are King's Men aligned while reinforcing the Faithful members of the city, which can lead to strife in the long-term.
Overall this is the best option if we want to have an immediate answer that fits the bulk of our people being Faithful from Andustar, and will be an answer they're much more able to hold onto then the first two options imo.
Also this option implies Imrazôr is wise enough to see a kernel of something here, but not wise enough to see more than that possibly due to his limited exposure to the Men of Twilight, and will need counsel to turn this into more than ash in his mouth for himself much less his people. So off to Imladris we go imo.
Overall for this decision I'd like to reiterate that we shouldn't mix options 1-2 with 3 as it is basically inviting the societal strife within Numenor to be rehashed within our colony, and the first two options aren't likely to help our largest group of starting colonists who're noted to come from a region with many Faithful.
Furthermore the words within the letter Elrond said are less coincidental, and more born from his ability to see how the Numenorean obsession with death will slowly twist what they do into ill deeds with the passage of time as their death grows inevitably closer for every generation. Also the Gift of Men is something I'd expect Elrond to have long pondered upon as it is what has separated him from his twin brother Elros until the world is broken, and remade anew at the earliest if ever.
Like even ignoring the game mechanics implication from being able to pick multiple options all the immediate avenues to help with the terror have problems imo.
This is implicitly inserting the idea into the people that death cannot be overcome even after 2000 years, and while it'll help with obvious causes of death it does so through inserting the King's Men into a settlement with the largest bulk of colonists being Faithful, which seems like it'll cause issues.
Furthermore it draws the attention of the King upon us, and that seems like a bad idea given what is to come. This is made doubly so as the King of Numenor can fairly trivially ruin attempts to cooperate with the Men of Twilight due to their delicacy.
I mean it does nothing, and a quick glance at their description has me inclined to believe this will end poorly as it is giving a group that use arcane lore as they relate to the dead influence. Also their experiments involve materials that are noted be in the "a king's ransom" price range, and thus their preservation method are liable to costly as well.
Alright originally I was going to say invoking old magic to create something in the form of the imperishable flame can always end well when jealousy is involved, but this is what Numenor did originally. So it'll likely work for a time here like it did for them.
The bigger issue with this is political as this is a rather Faithful action, and should construction fall behind when the representative of the Shapers arrives... well word will travel when the cause is the construction of a temple to Eru when it is the only Shaper sponsored settlement.
Oh, and don't pick this with either of the first two options as that is liable to result in including a faction that are King's Men aligned while reinforcing the Faithful members of the city, which can lead to strife in the long-term.
Overall this is the best option if we want to have an immediate answer that fits the bulk of our people being Faithful from Andustar, and will be an answer they're much more able to hold onto then the first two options imo.
If nothing else this seems like an attitude that will make the people of Târ Nîlon more able to relate to the Men of Twilight, and taking into consideration how poorly they are liable to be treated by Numenor proper in the years to come... there is merit in doing so imo.
Also this option implies Imrazôr is wise enough to see a kernel of something here, but not wise enough to see more than that possibly due to his limited exposure to the Men of Twilight, and will need counsel to turn this into more than ash in his mouth for himself much less his people. So off to Imladris we go imo.
Overall for this decision I'd like to reiterate that we shouldn't mix options 1-2 with 3 as it is basically inviting the societal strife within Numenor to be rehashed within our colony, and the first two options aren't likely to help our largest group of starting colonists who're noted to come from a region with many Faithful.
- Location
- USA
Ships are a trade good though, and shipyard should be up and running soon. Plus any good deal with Ironbark is going to include growing trees which takes time. And keep in mind the ships we have right now cant support trade (we have one that is out on expedition the other 14 that were used for colonists will not work)
Ship:
-You have no available ships.
That is what is listed right now. And by having the shipyard and lumber flow running when the surveyor gets here that is more proof of return on investment for the Shapers.
That and I also like Ents so more Ironbark time is a bonus. I can concede that Elrond is probably more pressing for a meeting though. Not sure if the 1st ranger would work for talking to Ironbark, Lady Shaper would not be a good choice.
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
I have to admit that I'm pretty strongly opposed to Fear, Overcome. I worry that the motivation here for renewed worship of the Valar/offerings to the Eagles is that this will somehow deliver men from death. But this isn't true, and the belief that it is will only engender bitterness when the Numenoreans of the colony recognizeit for the lie it is. Not, of course, that building this dome isn't a good idea in general -- in the same way that building a hospital and a place for the dead to rest is a good idea -- it's just that building this in answer to the desire to not die ("Above all desires of the colony now rises one concern to master all others: We refuse. We are the Tall Men of the Gift. We shall not, will not, cannot go into the dark") is fundamentally suspect.
Telamon
A corvid.
- Location
- Texas
I will note that both Pelargir and Umbar have Halls of Life and Death.
As a matter of fact, five thousand years after Imrazor's time, in the city of Minas Tirith, the last Steward of Gondor will set himself ablaze in the Halls of the Dead, and his son Faramir will be saved from certain death by the rightful king in the Halls of Healing.
As a matter of fact, five thousand years after Imrazor's time, in the city of Minas Tirith, the last Steward of Gondor will set himself ablaze in the Halls of the Dead, and his son Faramir will be saved from certain death by the rightful king in the Halls of Healing.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
Add to this that the King's Men in town are already annoyed so doing something this Faithfuls aligned at this stage is probably ill-advised. Obviously we will go full Faithfuls at some point but IMO we need to be strategic about how we go about it and do it gradually.
Obviously we dont want to take the option that invite the House of Death in, as it is more or less arguably the most toxic Numenorean institution from a metaphysical standpoint so, unless I misread and we can only actually take one, id say we take the hospital and the accept death options.
It allow us to do something on both a practical and philosophical front to deal with the issue, it give us tangible benefits through healthcare and combining it with an acceptance of death will prevent the hospital from gaining an unfortunate symbolic importance.
Zimmerwald1915
Revolutionary Defeatist
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Quick and dirty way to raise morale without addressing the fear of death would be to cannibalize the ships.
I agree with @Admiral Skippy that wrt the fear of death, Options 1 and 2 should not be taken with Option 3. This means that the only paths open to us are taking either Options 1 and 2, or option 3, or option 4. That being the case, there is no *overall* mechanical benefit to taking Option 3 over Option 4, or vice versa, since both are effectively single-option tracks. And as others have pointed out, noting up to now has suggested the overt and extreme King's Men allegiance that taking both Options 1 and 2 would indicate.
And of options 3 and 4, my heart tells me to go with the latter. And to reach out to the Guild of Workers some time after the Shaper inspector leaves.
I agree with @Admiral Skippy that wrt the fear of death, Options 1 and 2 should not be taken with Option 3. This means that the only paths open to us are taking either Options 1 and 2, or option 3, or option 4. That being the case, there is no *overall* mechanical benefit to taking Option 3 over Option 4, or vice versa, since both are effectively single-option tracks. And as others have pointed out, noting up to now has suggested the overt and extreme King's Men allegiance that taking both Options 1 and 2 would indicate.
And of options 3 and 4, my heart tells me to go with the latter. And to reach out to the Guild of Workers some time after the Shaper inspector leaves.
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Zimmerwald1915
Revolutionary Defeatist
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Eh, this is not exactly a ringing endorsement, for either institution.
It's actually a bit of a puzzle to me whether the truly Faithful option is Fear, Overcome or Doom, Unerring, yeah. Perhaps they represent different approaches or answers to the same question.
Right now, we don't really have a plausible trading partner to whom we could sell ships who would not be able to construct them themselves, I think. The Middle Men are fearful of living near the coasts, and Pelargir is a large haven and will have its own shipyards. Ditto for Edellhond or the Havens too, I'd think. The one option who probably would be interested is Lond Daer... but unfortunately, with Galzapath there, I'm not sure if they're interested in buying.
When it says "you have no available ships", I think it is talking about "Ships" with a capital "S", I.E. big galleons like the Pillar of Heaven, which can do expeditions or fight.
This option to cannibalise our smaller fourteen ships implies that they can be assigned to trading routes:
We could ask @Telamon to make sure, though.
Right now, we don't really have a plausible trading partner to whom we could sell ships who would not be able to construct them themselves, I think. The Middle Men are fearful of living near the coasts, and Pelargir is a large haven and will have its own shipyards. Ditto for Edellhond or the Havens too, I'd think. The one option who probably would be interested is Lond Daer... but unfortunately, with Galzapath there, I'm not sure if they're interested in buying.
When it says "you have no available ships", I think it is talking about "Ships" with a capital "S", I.E. big galleons like the Pillar of Heaven, which can do expeditions or fight.
This option to cannibalise our smaller fourteen ships implies that they can be assigned to trading routes:
We could ask @Telamon to make sure, though.
Telamon
A corvid.
- Location
- Texas
More a statement on how dominant and enduring they are in Númenórean society. The King's Men and the Faithful fear the long dark all the same. If there exist any institutions in Númenórean society which are above and beyond the divide of the Faithful and the King's Men, it is the Houses of Life and Death.
Who would go unprepared into the dirt, or abandon the hope of life everlasting?
Yes, you have ships, just no Capital-S Ships. You can assign the smaller ones to do trade and stuff if you wish.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
I could see why someone could think its Doom, Umerring but IMO that option can always be justified in-universe, sincerely or not, by the limitations of a new colony and the fact people went to our town willingly. Moreover, it also has ''toughen up buttercup!" vibe to it that feel, to me at least, apolitical.
Fear, Overcome has us set up rituals that the King's Men probably worked hard to eliminate from the crown ceremonial in Numenor and, IMO at least, it is unambiguously Faithful.
ChiefTurtle117
The Sigillite
- Location
- Holy Terra
Right, time for shock therapy. All pyres or sky burials from now on.
Can't worry about the body if there's no longer a body after all.
Telamon
A corvid.
- Location
- Texas
'Working hard' would be understating it.
Three times a year of old the Kings of the Blessed Isle would climb the Meneltarma and leave bloodless offerings for the Eagles of Manwe. Upon that silent mountain, the King -and the King alone- would offer thanks to Illuvatar in the High-Elven tongue.
But now the kings lapse, and the mountain is climbed rarely, if ever at all. The old words are spoken out of habit and tradition, and a lingering fear. Elvish is heard not at all upon the Blessed Isle, and the Eagles who once dwelt in the great eyries of the Meneltarma are nowhere now seen. To speak of the Valar is to be met with scorn and laughter, and of Illuvatar a sullen silence.
Only in the lands of the Faithful are the old traditions still kept.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
So if I understand correctly doing this would be more or less declaring ourselves one of the Faithfuls?
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Wonder if part of the problem that helped things along was that it was only the King doing that stuff.
- Location
- Canada
[The Men of Sunlight] I lean this way, kinda want to do this and [Doom, Unerring] because I feel the story of our First Ranger, and his recent adventure, and Doom Unerring stike some resonance, at least in my mind. Not mechanically, just in the narrative, I feel a constant reminder, of a people, who live along side us, by the actions of one man of Numenor, who braved death, instead of denied it.
Dark Abstraction
Infrequent Participant
- Location
- United States
Personally, I feel that the House of Life and the Westward Temple are good options. They give homage to vitality and principle. They would be appreciated by Faithful and King's Men alike. And ultimately, I think that Elrond's words give credence to their being the "best" options.
Death isn't what's weighing on Imrazor's mind. It's life, and the fear of life's absence. Numenoreans don't shirk from fighting orcs in fear that they'll die. But in the comfort on their homes, they fear the end of their lives and what might follow. Those are the things these choices would address; healthily prolonging life to its most natural conclusion, and assuaging the fears of what comes after that with a place to warmly call to their fea and bolster their spirits.
@Admiral Skippy, if you have an idea, about a +1, it usually helps to vocalize it for others, so that we can mutually share in your excitement at a potentially wise and clever way to proceed with things.
"Ladies and gentlemen of SV, we should invite the lord of Tharbad to join Imrazor in visiting Rivendell. Meeting the brother of the first King of Numenor, and ask for his wisdom in the same breath that this impressive Numenorean Sea Lord himself does, would certainly help him feel both legitimized and would likely help cultivate his perspective to something less haughty and more amenable to fellowship."
Death isn't what's weighing on Imrazor's mind. It's life, and the fear of life's absence. Numenoreans don't shirk from fighting orcs in fear that they'll die. But in the comfort on their homes, they fear the end of their lives and what might follow. Those are the things these choices would address; healthily prolonging life to its most natural conclusion, and assuaging the fears of what comes after that with a place to warmly call to their fea and bolster their spirits.
@Admiral Skippy, if you have an idea, about a +1, it usually helps to vocalize it for others, so that we can mutually share in your excitement at a potentially wise and clever way to proceed with things.
"Ladies and gentlemen of SV, we should invite the lord of Tharbad to join Imrazor in visiting Rivendell. Meeting the brother of the first King of Numenor, and ask for his wisdom in the same breath that this impressive Numenorean Sea Lord himself does, would certainly help him feel both legitimized and would likely help cultivate his perspective to something less haughty and more amenable to fellowship."
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- Location
- USA
The Shapers for more shaper colonies would be an obvious one- keep in mind the quality of ships we had were on the lower side. We also need big ships for long ranging routes. And it is very much a showing here is how they will make some of the investment back instead of paying it back right now. Shapers will be happy right now if we show future profits will come in (so for example starting on the Iron Port and having ship construction underway would both help, then again so would recovering lost elven secrets)
I really like the idea of inviting Lord of Tharbad to come with us my only worry is if Elrond's would be cool with it cause he invited us not him to come. Also he may act like a huge asshole toward him too even if he the brother of the first king of Númenor
also @Fission Battery had a great idea we should have the first ranger visit ironbark especially since he able to hear the trees and everything
also @Fission Battery had a great idea we should have the first ranger visit ironbark especially since he able to hear the trees and everything
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Okay, you're right, selling ships to the Shapers to build up their own trading fleet rather than going through the Venturers would be one potential option, I hadn't considered that. It would mean essentially declaring war on the Venturers, though. They're already a bit displeased at us, they might actually try burning the colony down and salting the ashes if we start building ships and selling them to the Shapers.
Still, it's a potentially lucrative option to consider, and we did invest a lot in bringing a shipwright. The other Guilds might have some interest as well.
I was waiting for @Telamon to answer my question about whether we could do this, but you're right, it did end up being a bit obtuse. 😅
My thought here is, in essence, that Elrond is quite literally a mythical figure to the Númenóreans. He represents their mythic past, their semi-divine heritage, a brother to our first King, Elros. Even in these fading days, he is held in high esteem and above reproach, despite being kin to the Noldor. Now Hazraban, we know, desperately craves approval and legitimisation. If our approval as a Sea-Lord means a lot to him, and I think it does, then can you imagine what the approval of Elrond would mean?
Rivendell is the last Homely House, welcoming to all travellers, a place where the virtues which have been tarnished in the outside world still persist undiminished, a tiny vision of Arda Unmarred. It is a place where lordliness, power and knowledge are not at odds with kindness, generosity and wisdom. It represents the very best of what Númenór once was, the things we have lost. What better place to help get Hazraban back onto the right track, to show him that there is a better way to be?
Anyway, @Telamon, I would appreciate your clarification on whether inviting Hazraban to come with us to Rivendell is a thing we could do. I'm not sure whether it would be best to do it this turn, or later on - we might want to introduce ourselves to Elrond first. The countervailing argument is that we hit two birds with one action slot.
Dark Abstraction
Infrequent Participant
- Location
- United States
On a separate note, I'm really digging Men-of-Sunlight. As legacies go, one born from love being carried on with every breath and every heart beat of a people to whom that love gave salvation, that rings so loudly with the soul and spirit of Tolkien's writings that they can probably hear it in Valinor.
More than cool magic weapons, or monuments, it is the people of the Legendarium that matter. It's Turin, not Anglachel. It's Gandalf, not Glamdring. And it would be the Men-of-Sunlight. These are the kind of legacies that made honor and wonder synonymous with the men of the Edain, and gave birth to the glory of the men of Numenor in the first place.
More than cool magic weapons, or monuments, it is the people of the Legendarium that matter. It's Turin, not Anglachel. It's Gandalf, not Glamdring. And it would be the Men-of-Sunlight. These are the kind of legacies that made honor and wonder synonymous with the men of the Edain, and gave birth to the glory of the men of Numenor in the first place.
Zimmerwald1915
Revolutionary Defeatist
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Tertiary benefit: Elrond could probably tell us in confidence if Hazraban is toting around one of the Lesser Rings if given the chance to meet him and take his measure. Since that was a suspicion people had.