I think we should do Life, Unending and possibly Fear, Overcome as well.
That and the walls we can build means we are not doing construction on our city for a while so:
[] Establish Pastures: Grain is well and good, but some among your smallholders have been aching to purchase sheep and goats in large numbers from the Middle-Men, that they might establish their own herds. Stake out plots of land where they may graze. (will reduce possible construction projects by one) A decent population of your people support doing this -- 3 Speakers are behind it.
would be my first choice for actions for the turn, to help with food shortages and it has the most support of all actions.

As there is no great crisis requiring our heroes I like to do:
[] Ironbark: In the deeps of the Iron Forest dwells an ent, an old thing with old eyes. He is no foe, not yet. But he is no friend of men, you do not think. Not anymore. Break words with him, and see if the strength of oak and yew might be bent in friendship. (requires hero)
And set up a deal that allows us to log in the forest around our city while planting new saplings to replace the logged trees.

We need to meet more of the locals to form an alliance:
[] Send An Envoy to the Men of the Great Lake: In the north lands beyond the Gwathlo, there is a great and sparkling lake around which dwell a rustic and hardy people, who tell tales of an ancient evil that came upon their land in a time lost to memory.
would be my first pick as the tales of ancient evil might make them more likely to accept an alliance.

[] Contact the Striders: Your scouts and repurposed mariners serve well enough, but opening a contract with one of the mercenary forces scattering Middle-Earth would both allow you access to professional explorers and a dedicated force of trained soldiers.
With the orcs on the move contacting mercenary forces in case we need them would be wise.

[] Explore Enedwaith: There is still much in the lands around your city that you do not know. Send searchers to find valuable natural resources or ancient treasures, and map your new home further. Some of your people support doing this -- 1 Speakers are behind it.
One of the worries is a lack of trade but until we find more to trade or get more maps to offer the embargo will not be lifted.

These are the five actions i like to take, with the remainder going to more diplomacy or exploration
 
Thematically, [] Doom, Unerring is probably the only correct option. Elrond's advice suggests as much. But it would be politically complex to go for that, and athelas would not hurt either.
 
I like Men of Sunglight as a legend, since it ties into us building bonds with the Middle Men and the fact that the entire mission was motivated by Barazir's desire to save his adopted son. It was love for his fellow man that drove that rampage and it should be that spirit that we want to support. Anyone can kill an orc, though not legions of them as Barazir did, but saving hundreds is a rarer accomplishment. That should be remembered.

I like the idea of having an advanced hospital in our city. It'd be a huge boon in general, regardless of their fear of death. It'd prevent accidents like this from causing a fatality again in the future. However, Doom, Unerring is the only correct answer. We aren't immortal. We die like anything else, sooner or later. It'd be difficult to push for it though, but I feel we should. The people here need to understand a hospital won't stop us from dying in combat if aid isn't given in time. We aren't invincible and buying into our own hype isn't a good idea, even if a lot of it is justified.

I agree that the Warden has been quite demanding of us. He is a tyrant who expects things to go his way. We choose not to be "kind" stewards over the Middle Men, so the Warden's the one that needs to get bent and fall in line. We need to make contact with the Dwarf-Friends, give aid to people the dwarfs like, and call a northern council, possibly. We also don't actually know if the Hillmen are in league with Sauron. They shot at us because we're Numenors, you know, the same people who've spent centuries terrorizing these lands for tribute. They didn't actually use any cursed symbols or dark speech, so we can probably clear up this misunderstanding. It might be premature to call a council of the north but it might be good to get the ball rolling.

If Inzilbeth was here then I'd say send her as the hero because the Middle Men like her a lot, but unfortunately she's on a journey. We should also Research Middle Men to gain more insight into them. Barazir is loved by the Middle Men though, so he could do it too, but we also want to see if he can handle the situation with the local Ent. Inzilbeth is legendary, she'd be great for doing the High King quest.

I don't know how we want to side regarding the situation with Khazad-Dum. We need dwarf support to gain leverage over the Warden, and we may not be able to find a diplomatic solution to the disagreement. I don't know how to approach that. We don't have supplies to share either, I don't think.

[] (Rough Draft) Plan Rally the Middle Men and Maybe Get Logging Rights
-[] Establish Pastures:
Grain is well and good, but some among your smallholders have been aching to purchase sheep and goats in large numbers from the Middle-Men, that they might establish their own herds. Stake out plots of land where they may graze. (will reduce possible construction projects by one) A decent population of your people support doing this -- 3 Speakers are behind it.
-[] Expand the Militia:
Enlist more volunteers to the defense of the city, should you think it necessary. A noticable population of your people support doing this -- 2 Speakers are behind it.
-[] A Council of the North:
Repeating your earlier idea of a great alliance, you call together all the clans, tribes, and groups of men of which you are currently aware, and attempt to forge a league against Gundabad. Success will depend on your own skill, relation with the individual groups, and if you've managed to sway great swathes of them one way or another by a certain means.
-[] Send An Envoy to the Barrow-Men: Far to the north is a great valley where mighty barrows lie sleeping in the dark, monuments to ancient kings told of in no songs of Men or Elves. They are kept by a gaunt and sallow people — the Barrow-Men of Braen.
-[] Send An Envoy to the Hillmen: The Men of the hills of northern Enedwaith are clearly Men of Darkness, enemies of all folk good and fair and free — but that does not mean you cannot at the least attempt to break words with them.
-[] Send An Envoy to the Dwarf-Friends: There exists a tribe, or a confederation of tribes, who have grown wealthy trading food and supplies with the dwarves in the distant north. Send an envoy across the Gwathlo to meet with them.
-[] Ironbark: In the deeps of the Iron Forest dwells an ent, an old thing with old eyes. He is no foe, not yet. But he is no friend of men, you do not think. Not anymore. Break words with him, and see if the strength of oak and yew might be bent in friendship. (requires hero)
--[] Barazir
-[] Research the Middle-Men:
It dawns on you that migration and exile have forced many of the men of twilight from their natural lands. Those with whom you now parlay are neighbors with men who may be all but strangers to them. Middle-Men you call them all, but you imagine they must have names for themselves in their own speech.

It might be premature to call a council of the north but it might be good to get the ball rolling. I could drop it for High King if we really want it. I think whoever we send will end up being their king/queen, so Barazir could be a good fit for them. He's at ease in these lands after and would make a better monarch than Inzilbeth. I want to deal with Ironbark now because we still need a source of wood to start building up ships, the thing we hired a Shipwright to do, the thing that put us into debt for ten generations.

If we don't make some progress towards setting up shipbuilding industry there's a chance the Shapers might think this whole colony was a waste of time, and nothing more than a pet project by Imrazor to play diplomat among the Middle Men.
 
I am not sure we want Life, Unending here. In the end, it is in pursuit of eternal life Numenorians did their darkest deeds, not even in pursuit of overcoming death. Choosing this to allay the fear is setting us on that same path, even if doesn't make us walk it to its fullest. Also, growing athelas will make the King and his elites notice us, which might very well not be to our benefit.
 
Success will depend on your own skill, relation with the individual groups, and if you've managed to sway great swathes of them one way or another by a certain means.
This tells me it is too early. We want to sway more of them to our camp or otherwise earn their trust before getting the alliance thing rolling.


And yeah, while athelas is great, uh, thematically LotR in general is not about that at all. If it were some transhumanist setting, sure, but it is really not. So, IMO, Doom is like...the only one which is "correct" answer for the setting.
 
That update was amazing.

The story of Barazîr and the kid was some Lone Wolf and Cub shit. Really intense, with a heartwarming ending. Hope to see many more of their adventures - the things we discovered on the way,s like the Barrow-Men, were awesome and evocative.. Very concerning seeing the buildup of forces in Mt. Gundabad, but roughly what we feared. Both the Men of Sunlight and the Oak seem like rather appealing options.

Unsure what to do about the fear of death. The obvious option which kind of follows the middle-ground path we've been taking would be to go for both the House of Life, and also the Temple. This would also have tangible benefits for the colony, with both a place of worship and amazing good services, and the political valances of both would roughly balance. The only major cost is the delay of our construction plans.

However, I feel like the really bold option would just be to pick Doom and say "suck it, we all die, get over it and live for something". But the opportunity cost of missing the Temple and the House of Life is kind of a pain. @Telamon, how much of a construction delay would picking both the temple and the House of Life give us?

Now we move onto the big one:
On the eve of winter, you send two messengers riding out across the land. One rides north, to the black tower on the ford, and another makes east, for the town in the high hill. Both the chieftain of Brun Gledd and the Master of Tharbad are summoned to Tar Nilon, to break words with each other under your protection and with guarantee of safety.

The Middle-Men send back an envoy within the week. They will attend this meeting, they promise, their chieftain and the great elders all together.

The Númenóreans of the tower send no word back, but on the day before the meeting is to take place, a troop of tall men in golden armor emerges from the northern forests. At their head is Hazraban, wearing the robes and regalia of a Warden of the King, his youthful face set firm under a heavy iron crown.

Lacking any suitable facilities in the city itself, a meeting-place is chosen upon a hill outside the city. There the High Men and the Middle-Men meet, their breaths frosting in the first chill. Hazraban's eyes are dark and bright, and his armor shines with a cruel beauty in the morning sun. Braelor, for his part, is far different from when you saw him last: a dozen golden torcs sit about his neck, and the furs he wears are richly oiled. His beard is woven into an intricate pattern, and a sword — of Númenórean make, you notice — hangs from his hip. Behind him are a dozen or so men bent with age, some clutching walking sticks and others outright immobile, carried on litters by their sons.

"The Drugenti-Lûth are come before you," Braelor declares, his voice solid as an oak. He has to arch his neck to look either of you in the face, but there is nothing broken in his eyes, or anything indeed left of the man who but a year ago all but flung himself at your feet and begged for protection. "Why have you called us here? What would the great and puissant High Men of the Sea ask of the men of the twilight?"

Hazraban breaks in before you may reply. "Ask? Nothing. It is ye who should plead forgiveness. How many harvests have you burned, and sons murdered? It is orc-work you do, plain and simple, and if I knew you not for kin and kind, I would think you beasts of the Wizard."

Braelor does not speak, and merely motions with a hand. Behind him, one of the elders sits up on his litter. His old voice is like the creaking of soft bark, and all present must strain to pick out his words against the wind. "Our lives are not as long as your own, my lord, but our memories stretch back far enough to remember when we were not of these lands. The wise-men say that we dwelt once and long ago in the shadow of the Blue Mountains, on the shores of the great sea. But south we have retreated, ever south, over river and hill, and now the shores are lost to us, and even the mountains are a memory."

The elder slumps back, drained from the effort of his speech, and Braelor picks up where he left off. "I ask you, what forgiveness should we ask of the High Men, or of the Tyrant in his far tower?"

Hazraban sneers. "You pass down half-remembered tales in the dirt, and scorn that of which you know less and little. You would have nothing, in the north or the south or the lands between, were it not for we. Have you forgotten so easily the shadow of the Enemy?"

"But the Enemy is gone a thousand years," you break in. "And none of their woes may now be laid upon Zigûrun."

Hazraban looks at you, his face stretched with anger and confusion. "And why? Because of us! Our hand has sheltered them from the dark for thirty lifetimes. My lord Imrazor, I beg you, see their petulance for what it is: the complaints of children, unable or unwilling to understand--"

"Hold," you interrupt him. "The both of you. And listen."

You beckon behind you, and a guard brings a small table and a map, which he unrolls upon the table's surface. Many dark black points dot the map.

"Here. And here. And here again." Each time you speak, you point at one of the black dots. "Here, and here also. Each of these places, orcs bearing the brand of Gundabad have been seen abroad in the wilderness. There is a darkness gathering in the north such as these lands have not seen for many lifetimes of men — Tall or otherwise."

Neither Braelor nor the Warden speak. It seems you have their attention. You forge on.

"This is why I have called you here. A blade hangs over all our heads. The time for strife between our kindreds must be at an end."

Hazraban sours. "You cannot -"

"Silence, son of Algadar, and listen. A power comes over these lands the likes of which you cannot resist alone — which none of us might resist alone, absent allies. If the signs I have seen are correct, only the cooperation of all men between the mountains and the sea might be enough to deter what now rises in the north."

Braelor looks at the map, running a hand over it, then up at you. "What do you propose?"

"An alliance. A great alliance of the men of the north, by which the enemy that marshals in Gundabad may be undone."

"What need have we of alliances with these men?" Hazraban thundered. "If the orcs come, we shall deal with them as we have dealt with them before —"

"You are not your father, Lord Warden. Nor his father before him. Your walls are rubbled, and your numbers dwindled. You have strength enough to terrorize the Middle-Men, but how do you believe your garrison might fare against an army? Have any among your guard ever seen a troll? Or a dragon? Dare you even imagine what fell beasts lie within the Wizard's power?"

Hazraban swallows.

Braelor fills the silence. "What would you have of us, then?"

"All the north," you begin "was manned by forts long ago." You indicate a string of points along the Gwathlo. "These fortifications were made by elves and men alike in days gone by to defy a greater power yet than we now face. Tharbad alone remains. If any proper defense is to be made, this old guard must be restored.

Hazraban's eyes flicker to the map, interested.

"Númenórean forts," he said. "And Númenor's by right."

You nod slowly. "But there is no longer enough of Númenor left to hold them, not in all the north, and not enough grain in all of Tharbad to feed them if you could fill them."

His eyes widen as he grasps your meaning. "You cannot mean…"

"But I do! We of Tar Nilon shall put the work and knowledge of the Shapers to repairing not only the walls of Tharbad, but all the bastion-line in which she once stood. The fort shall be repaired and stand as it was in your father's time, and the Middle-Men shall man her sister-forts along the river. From East to West the river-wall shall stretch, and Gundabad will find the river held as it was held in the days of Tar-Minastir."

"But for all this…" you continue, "there must be peace, and concessions."

Hazraban scowled. "You do not imagine allowing these little men into the halls of our fathers to be concession enough?"

"I do not. You must stay your hand immediately. No more raids. No more retribution. No more thralls or vassals."

"You would have me give up all that we have built?"

"To save all else, yes."

You turn to Braelor. "And from you, I ask something more difficult yet. You and yours must now give freely what has been taken. Your herds and fields must feed the towers and their garrisons, or this defense of which we dream shall starve. In return, you will meet with us as an equal, in council to decide the defense and doings in the North."

Braelor knuckles his beard stubbornly. "It is your dream, Númenorean, and no dream of ours."

"Stubbornness will not avail you when the orcs come. Whatever terrors you begrudge the tower and it's master, worse terrors yet shall sweep out of the north in due time."

"All that aside, what you ask is not so easily done. My father was the Lûth-i-Lûth, king of all the northmen, and could have commanded such a thing with ease — but he fell at the walls of Tharbad long ago. The clans heed the call of Brun Gledd no longer. If they do not swear themselves to the Tower, then they have retreated into the mountains or the hills, and given themselves over to the gods who were before the sun."

Hazraban snarls. "Savagery and blasphemy. There are no gods save The One. Your wood-spirits will not avail you."

Braelor does not blink. "They are not of the wood. Spirits. Gods. Call them what you will. I hold Illuvatar as you do, and yet the fact remains. They were here before the sun, and before you."

Again you steer the topic back to the matter at hand. "Would these clans answer the call to defend against Gundabad?"

Braelor laughs, high and clear. "No. Perhaps my own people might, if I was of mind to beseech them, but the Carag-Lûth and the Draig-Lûth might go to their deaths before they bent to Númenor. Only the Lûth-i-Lûth, the High King, might call them to arms — and I am afraid there are no kings among the Gwaithurim any longer." Braelor casts an isolent look upwards. "The tall sea has taken them, and the long tide."

You knot your brow, intrigued. "And you cannot name yourself High King?"

The chieftain laughed again. "Are things so simple in far Númenor? It is not a thing of naming yourself. The Lûth-i-Lûth is raised by all the clans, as one, amid the barrows of his fathers. He stands high on the naming-stone and the dead who have gone name him true — or strike him low for the trying."

Hazraban has almost stopped listening. "Heathenry. My Lord Shaper, you cannot indulge this…witch-talk. The wildmen shake in fear of ravens and omens in the night."

Braelor's hand twitches on his sword, but he speaks still not to Hazraban, but to you.

"There you have it. If you want the northmen, you must have their king. But the crown of the Kings is lost, and while I have heard tell that the Barrow-Men keep the old places still, none of us who dwell below the Gwathlo have been permitted to venture over the river since my father's time."

Hazraban laughs. "The sheer gall. You are given everything you have ever wanted on a plate — treated as equals — and you demand we make you a king instead. Yours are a miserable people, and you would make a miserable king."

He turns to you.

"Do you see now, Sea-Lord? I tried to warn you. They are a grasping, shameless lot. They see the glory of Númenor and can only pretend at it. Kings. What kings could there be out here, in the wilderness?"

An old woman behind Braelor rises to her full height. Her eyes are stars of scorn. "Higher kings, my lord, and greater, than are thought of across the sea. Better kings than thine, that were conquered or ever your sires were born."

Hazraban scoffs. "It is folly to treat with them. I was inclined once as you are, to a high hand and open arms — but they are a viperous race, these men of Brunn Gledd, and their poison drips deep into the ears of all their kindred. Your plan is bold, and at the hearing of it I was first unsettled, but there is a wisdom in it, my lord. Many of these clans of which they speak are tributaries already to me. I could relinquish them, as you say, and —"

"They will not fight for you," Braelor breaks in. "For him, perhaps, but never for you."

A dry chuckle rings in response. "Is that so? My lord Imrazor, my offer remains open — and I add to it. Repair my walls and I shall relinquish those Middle-Men I have bound in tribute from their duties, should they agree to join this great alliance of yours. We shall restore Tharbad to her glory and fence the North against the Enemy. Leave this little king and his people to their own devices, but I warn thee — do not hope for word or sign of thanks when our blood and our steel shelters them yet again from the Shadow."

Hazraban bows to you and turns to leave, but a sharp call from Braelor stops him.

"Lord of the Tower. I have a sign of thanks for you."

The tall figure pauses, golden armor dancing with light in the sun. He looks down at the smaller.

"Yes?"

Braelor's mouth works a long moment. He says nothing.

Finally, he leans over and spits at Hazraban's feet.

"We are no children, Tyrant."

Braelor turns and walks down the hill. He does not look back.

Hazraban's eyes grow a sickly color. You think he is about to go for his sword, but instead he raises a gleaming fist into the air and calls after the retreating delegation, his voice booming in the winter air. You will remember for long afterwards that tableau: a golden figure, eyes twisted in rage, shouting down a hill at a small one, retreating into the gloom.

"And yet child you are, fool! You live and you breathe and you die and it is the blink of an eye! By the time my son is a man grown, the sons of your sons will be breathing their last! You will wither and fade and go into the earth, and we will live on after you! You are a passing wind, a folly and a suffering, agannâlu lo dubdam*!"



This feels like it went about as well as could be expected.

Hazraban was as receptive as we'd hoped - we did not even have to lean on exposing him to the King. He is ready to sign up immediately, with his own protectorate. Unfortunately the prejudices of the Númenoreans run deep, and this is doubly tragic and pathetic because of course, Harzaban himself would likely be viewed in much the same demeaning light by those back home. But there's still something to build off of here - tiny green shoots of a better way of living.

Braelor was less receptive, but still not totally unreceptive. Given the whole centuries of conflict thing, this could have gone significantly worse. (The Númenorean sword at his belt may also hint at better times, when there was less conflict.) The implications of creating a High King amongst the Middle Men is interesting, especially as this seems to be a kind of appointed, not hereditary position. Doing so will likely give the Middle Men more collective bargaining power in their negotiations with us, but on the plus side, it means we will not have to do a half-dozen separate diplomatic actions with individual tribes every single time we want to get them to agree to anything.

Broadly, I think we should move ahead on getting things rolling with Tharbad, and pursue the High King questline at the same time. This is both because getting Tharbad to start making real concessions now will be a good way to show the Middle Men we're serious, and also because I expect the High King questline to be really cool, and let us discover more peoples and cool stuff. We still have a carrot here for Tharbad, because we need more Middle Men tribes to come into the fold if we want to man the fortress network - and each tribe who signs into our alliance is another trade partner, one less potential source of raids.

So does anyone know what that small figure was?
A kid that Barazîr found and pretty much adopted.

Well either it's a small child whose adverse circumstances may well have reminded Barazîr of himself, leading them to bond, or it's Sauron, fucking with us.

Now, admittedly, I don't know why Sauron would spend months pretending to be a small child just to form a touching bond with one of our Rangers.

But maybe he has hobbies too!
 
How feasible would it be to build the hospital now and later do something like Doom, Unerring? Obviously the choice wouldn't be exactly the same but would an opportunity to renounce the fear of death come again? Like maybe after visiting Elrond and having a discussion about it (assuming we decide to finally publicly throw out lot with the Faithful, because going to Rivendell is pretty blatant).
 
How feasible would it be to build the hospital now and later do something like Doom, Unerring? Obviously the choice wouldn't be exactly the same but would an opportunity to renounce the fear of death come again? Like maybe after visiting Elrond and having a discussion about it (assuming we decide to finally publicly throw out lot with the Faithful, because going to Rivendell is pretty blatant).
Going to Rivendell is not actually all that blatant, because, at this moment, everyone in Numenor still respects Elrond, even King's Men.
 
Doom, Unerring it must be. For that is the truth of the world and we cannot hold back death forever. No matter how skilled the hands of a healer or the words of prayer, death is a constant, even for our long-lived people.

I support following the High King questline and making more friends among the Middle Men, especially the Enedwaith, Dwarf Friends and Barrow Men.

So Men of Sunlight is one of my choices as well.
 
We should probably split out the votes on how to deal with the fear of death/the legend from the general plan, as ultimately these are quite personal and people are likely to have their own feelings on them.

North he went, through wood and fen and over hill and dell, until they came to the black tower over the city on the river, where tall men with their fathers' eyes ruled with a heavy hand over their cousins and sisters.

Reading back through the update, this passage really stuck with me. The Doom of Men indeed.
 
I'm tempted to vote Nothing for Barazir to see what a double-strength Legend looks like, but I know that that way lies me voting Nothing again to see what a quadruple-strength Legend looks like, then octupule... of the options that don't spiral endlessly into "REALLY BIG SHINY" I like The Men of Sunlight or Hundrehtar, the Killing Thunder. The latter because that's a really fucking cool name for a bow.

Doom, Unerring is the 'correct' choice, though I don't doubt it's the worst practically speaking. If nothing else, I can't imagine the King's Men who we voted to take along as well—for whatever godforsaken reason—will be too happy with that. Still, I think that's the option that would synchronise best with visiting Rivendell. Which, by the way, I want to do as soon as possible. It's a definite step towards the Faithful, but I'd rather step to the Faithful early than get caught lingering in the middle too long. Plus the benefits of exchanging words with somebody as wise and with as much relevance to our situation as Elrond.

I'm also feeling like asking Lond Daer for help isn't going to end well. We don't want them in our lands. We've given then an excuse to come into our lands. I don't doubt they'll have a crack at offing the High King if we've made him by that point. But, well, it's already happened, so we'll see.

As for the High King, I feel as though we don't want to launch on it right away, but we should make inroads into it ASAP by researching the Middle Men and talking to a tribe or two at least. It's an obvious silver bullet to a lot of the Middle Men-side problems, so I don't trust it to be easy, nor do I expect it to quite do everything it seems to promise. Better than nothing though.
 
I do like how the wild men of Dunland just give no fucks. If we ever want to actually talk to them, we'll probably have to work through some Dwarves as intermediaries.
 
I'm here with Fezzes, and we could probably try and have ourselves since we do have some other things than just Diplomacy for the most part, curious about that shapers hall though since the benefits should have already made themselves known. Also noticed that with every turn, our description of Tar Nilon is improving, both in terms of population and the milia. And yeah, I'm staying with doom for this one.
 
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So that was an update. The first ranger part is probably my favorite and the legend choices are interesting even if I lean towards Sunlight right now. We want to make common cause with our brethren, be they middle men, numenorean or elves. We who hold true to Illuvatar and the Valar. Death options... so tough, I can see the benefits of a house of healers but at the same time our people must accept that in the end death awaits us.

Also we need to remember we should be working on options to pay off the debts to the Shaper Guild.
 
Doom, Unerring is the 'correct' choice, though I don't doubt it's the worst practically speaking. If nothing else, I can't imagine the King's Men who we voted to take along as well—for whatever godforsaken reason—will be too happy with that. Still, I think that's the option that would synchronise best with visiting Rivendell. Which, by the way, I want to do as soon as possible. It's a definite step towards the Faithful, but I'd rather step to the Faithful early than get caught lingering in the middle too long. Plus the benefits of exchanging words with somebody as wise and with as much relevance to our situation as Elrond.

Visiting Rivendell is extremely attractive to me, just because I think meeting Elrond would be an incredible opportunity.

Doom, Unerring is a good statement, I think, but I think we to be clear-headed about exactly what it means and does not mean.

It does not mean that Imrazôr will stand up, deliver a speech about rejecting our fear of death, and then everyone will clap. Quite explicitly, the fear and unrest in our citizenry will be ameliorated by picking more options, and Doom is incompatible with other options and tastes "like ashes" even in our own mouth. This is likely not to go down that well, I think, and will not mean that the fear in the hearts of our people disappears.

It does mean that we will be able to finish our other construction projects sooner, which may be especially helpful if we're starting building walls for Tharbad this turn. It is also the clearest rejection of the obsession which has causes so many problems for people, and instead start coming to terms with our fear. But we should know is not going to be an easy process, I think.

I'm also feeling like asking Lond Daer for help isn't going to end well. We don't want them in our lands. We've given then an excuse to come into our lands. I don't doubt they'll have a crack at offing the High King if we've made him by that point. But, well, it's already happened, so we'll see.

Well, we weren't asking them for help so much as offering to trade with them and open diplomatic relations, in the original plan - we did not include them in the alliance, not until we were able to get a read on them. Now we have, we know we need to be weary of Galpazath, but I'd rather know that now then have it have come as an unwelcome surprise later on, I think. From his tone I think the Gimilkarasai may well venture north whether we give them leave to do or not.

Telling him about Gundabad may have been a mistake, not that we could have known it at the time, but it at least may distract some attention from oppressing the Faithful in his colony.
 
Yah update! Great update overall especially with the ranger and his son!

Leaning toward men of sunlight cause that seems cool and it be cool to have some more middle men in our city

think doom unearned is the way to go to here the other shines aren't worth it, bluntly it better to rip out the bandaid now and start the process of grappling with the fear

I def do not think we should do council next we should actually form some more ties with the middle men throughout the region, meet with them find out what there deal for connection instead of calling a conference without even meeting most of the participants. I also think we need to further build up our reputation throughout the region, increase our power, further secure our position.
 
Visiting Rivendell is extremely attractive to me, just because I think meeting Elrond would be an incredible opportunity.
It's the one option whose hill I'm dying on. Elrond's one of the most remarkably wise characters in the setting for a damned good reason. If he's inviting us he has something he thinks he can impart on us, and I'm deeply inclined to hear that out.

Doom, Unerring is a good statement, I think, but I think we to be clear-headed about exactly what it means and does not mean.

It does not mean that Imrazôr will stand up, deliver a speech about rejecting our fear of death, and then everyone will clap. Quite explicitly, the fear and unrest in our citizenry will be ameliorated by picking more options, and Doom is incompatible with other options and tastes "like ashes" even in our own mouth. This is likely not to go down that well, I think, and will not mean that the fear in the hearts of our people disappears.

It does mean that we will be able to finish our other construction projects sooner, which may be especially helpful if we're starting building walls for Tharbad this turn. It is also the clearest rejection of the obsession which has causes so many problems for people, and instead start coming to terms with our fear. But we should know is not going to be an easy process, I think.
Definitely. I have no illusions about it exactly going over well, especially with our already-disgruntled population of King's Men, but I do think it's a necessary healing step, for Imrazor even if nobody else. I don't doubt Elrond will have something to say about it, perhaps alleviating some of that "ash in mouth" feeling.

Well, we weren't asking them for help so much as offering to trade with them and open diplomatic relations, in the original plan - we did not include them in the alliance, not until we were able to get a read on them. Now we have, we know we need to be weary of Galpazath, but I'd rather know that now then have it have come as an unwelcome surprise later on, I think. From his tone I think the Gimilkarasai may well venture north whether we give them leave to do or not.

Telling him about Gundabad may have been a mistake, not that we could have known it at the time, but it at least may distract some attention from oppressing the Faithful in his colony.
Oh yeah, I'm not recriminating anyone. I didn't see much in the plan about asking them for aid with Gundabad, and it sounds like the exact situation in Lond Daer wasn't even close to known to us at the time. We've been doing the best we could with the information we had. It was just a note on where I think that plot thread is heading.

So does anyone remember why we brought kings men along again? So far they seem more trouble then they worth
I expect it was mainly some kind of notion that help farming would be worth it when a large portion of our population 'could not till a field to save their very lives'. Which, you know, isn't entirely misguided. I want to say that it was also an attempt at bothsides-ism line-straddling by taking both Faithful and King's Men, but fewer of the King's Men so that the Faithful would "win". However, that feels like it's not giving anyone nearly enough credit. Anyway, I don't want to be overly condemning when I wasn't even there and am currently speaking with hindsight. We are getting farming benefits out of it—given that we've currently got a lean harvest, imagine what would've happened if we had no farmers on-hand—so let's be grateful for that.
 
@Telamon , will we be able to build a hospital and a temple later if we take Doom option? Or are those one-time things bundled with the continued Numenorian obsession about death?
 
Okay I think we may want the Lady Shaper on starting the Port of Iron project- we have the surveyor from the shaper coming soon and having that started should make a positive impression. We also need to secure a supply of wood to get our shipyards running.

Our own action is the going to be a hard choice- speaking to Elrond can give us much, but we also are the only one who can speak to Ironbark to work out an arrangement to harvest trees (and replant! we are no fools who would consume the forest like others of our kin, take only as much as we replant or maybe less so that the forest never shrinks and we will always have a supply of wood).
 
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