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Westernesse: A Númenórean Colony Quest

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Imrazor should speak to Elrond over Ironbark, I deem. Ironbark is a neighbor, yes, but Elrond is an honored ancestor (Imrazor's great-and-then-some-uncle on his mother's side) and has summoned Imrazor especial. It would be worse than churlish to delay.

I am also wary of taking Men of Sunlight. While more Men in the colony is typically an unalloyed boon, one thing we do not need in our ongoing diplomatic efforts is another folk with an undying hatred of Tharbad to placate.
 
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On the flipside each turn we do not talk to Ironbark is another turn our shipyards are idle and we took a lot of debt to get the shipwright for our colony.
 
I strongly believe that there is nothing bad in excellent medicine and quality-of-live improvement. Any ideology that states otherwise has something deeply, deeply wrong inside. It's definitely Life, Unending for me.
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
I am also wary of taking Men of Sunlight. While more Men in the colony is typically an unalloyed boon, one thing we do not need in our ongoing diplomatic efforts is another folk with an undying hatred of Tharbad to placate.
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I don't think the Men of Sunlight would even really know what Tharbad is. The Lossoth have all of Eriador between them and Tharbad, really, and these ones came from Mount Gundabad. Certainly I don't imagine they have all that much hatred of them, as they won't have been personally affected. If anything they'd serve as a kinda pro-Numenorean/pro-Tharbad voice, since they have direct and profound proof that Numenorean protection is no joke and that living alongside us isn't so bad.

Void Stalker said:
On the flipside each turn we do not talk to Ironbark is another turn our shipyards are idle and we took a lot of debt to get the shipwright for our colony.
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Elrond >>> Ironbark to me. Elrond is going to have some deeply profound shit to say to us relating to death, which is a Big Deal ChoiceTM this turn and thus carries significantly more weight.

Shipbuilding is contingent on both a shipyard and wood, of which we have neither. Source: Cannibalise Ships in the Seafaring section starts with "Having no Shipyard or permanant source of wood, you will need to break down some of the fourteen ships which brought you here (which are not battle-worthy and cannot hold enough supplies to travel far) in order to construct a proper Ship." So not having wood just yet is fine, since we don't seem to have a shipyard yet either though the winning plan had us build one so that might just be an oversight by Telamon. Regardless, we already do have a Ship, and we don't have Supplies to put another one to immediate use yet, so it's still debatable on if we'd actually get that much worth out of it.

Meanwhile, whatever Elrond has to say, probably about death, will probably impact Imrazor less the longer we put it off.

I do see your point, I just prefer hearing what Elrond has to say, because holy shit Elrond.


...Hey, could we do both? Barazir's thing mentions the woods seem to be talking to him and shit, and he seems utterly unafraid of the woods, and as a woodsman he'd probably not be the worst advocate for them. Is it at all plausible that he'd actually be an okay person to talk to Ironbark?
 
Arhin said:
I strongly believe that there is nothing bad in excellent medicine and quality-of-live improvement. Any ideology that states otherwise has something deeply, deeply wrong inside. It's definitely Life, Unending for me.
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Motivation matters.
Numenorians were afraid enough of death to gradually go towards human sacrifice, making friends with Sauron and eventually trying to land in Valinor, resulting in fall of Numenor.

And if this House of Life is close to the King, then we might be getting some weirdo human experimenters on board coupled with doctors. Especially since vote is more about "how do we deal with fear of death", not just "do we want to build a hospital", seeing as we, apparently, can build it later.

edit: and on meta level, setting very much considers mortality of humans to be a gift from the local God and not a curse, and setting tends to bonk over the head those who fear it too much. Imrazor might be familiar with the concept of Gift, not sure whether this is that known IC in general and among Numenoreans in particular.
 
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Arhin said:
I strongly believe that there is nothing bad in excellent medicine and quality-of-live improvement. Any ideology that states otherwise has something deeply, deeply wrong inside. It's definitely Life, Unending for me.
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It's worth noting that all of the responses to the unfortunate builder's (EDIT: per Telamon, his name was Hurin) death are performative gestures meant to address the fear of death over offering any material improvement (the thing that would not be a performative gesture is improving safety standards, but this is not an option available to us). The question is, what posture do we want to perform?

Fezzes said:
I don't think the Men of Sunlight would even really know what Tharbad is. The Lossoth have all of Eriador between them and Tharbad, really, and these ones came from Mount Gundabad. Certainly I don't imagine they have all that much hatred of them, as they won't have been personally affected.
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It is mentioned in the option that the Men of Sunlight's forbear is First-Ranger's ward, and it is his ill-treatment at Tharbad that planted the seeds of their hatred.
 
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Fezzes said:
I don't think the Men of Sunlight would even really know what Tharbad is. The Lossoth have all of Eriador between them and Tharbad, really, and these ones came from Mount Gundabad. Certainly I don't imagine they have all that much hatred of them, as they won't have been personally affected. If anything they'd serve as a kinda pro-Numenorean/pro-Tharbad voice, since they have direct and profound proof that Numenorean protection is no joke and that living alongside us isn't so bad.



Elrond >>> Ironbark to me. Elrond is going to have some deeply profound shit to say to us relating to death, which is a Big Deal ChoiceTM this turn and thus carries significantly more weight.

Shipbuilding is contingent on both a shipyard and wood, of which we have neither. Source: Cannibalise Ships in the Seafaring section starts with "Having no Shipyard or permanant source of wood, you will need to break down some of the fourteen ships which brought you here (which are not battle-worthy and cannot hold enough supplies to travel far) in order to construct a proper Ship." So not having wood just yet is fine, since we don't seem to have a shipyard yet either though the winning plan had us build one so that might just be an oversight by Telamon. Regardless, we already do have a Ship, and we don't have Supplies to put another one to immediate use yet, so it's still debatable on if we'd actually get that much worth out of it.

Meanwhile, whatever Elrond has to say, probably about death, will probably impact Imrazor less the longer we put it off.

I do see your point, I just prefer hearing what Elrond has to say, because holy shit Elrond.


...Hey, could we do both? Barazir's thing mentions the woods seem to be talking to him and shit, and he seems utterly unafraid of the woods, and as a woodsman he'd probably not be the worst advocate for them. Is it at all plausible that he'd actually be an okay person to talk to Ironbark?
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The Shipyard and the Shaping Hall are both being built. Absent any unforeseen delays, they should both be done next turn. It is also what Uriphel is busy doing, and why she isn't a voting option for this turn.

Hm. Should clarify that in the update. One moment.
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
It is mentioned in the option that the Men of Sunlight's forbear is First-Ranger's ward, and it is his ill-treatment at Tharbad that planted the seeds of their hatred.
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That's in later years, probably because the kid himself will be some kind of notable/mythologised figure. Right now they're a bunch of people from Lossoth, mostly.
 
Personally, I do want to build a hospital for practical benefits - if nothing else, we are going to war sooner or later and will want to prevent casualties. However, if we start building it in response to an existential crisis and fear of death, it will inevitably acquire philosophical and perhaps even religious meanings. And following those can lead to some really shirty things. So perhaps not now.

Just saying "cope" to our people is unlikely to be helpful, though. So I'd vote to just go with the tried and true tradition of building a temple to address such spiritual issues.
 
Fezzes said:
That's in later years, probably because the kid himself will be some kind of notable/mythologised figure. Right now they're a bunch of people from Lossoth, mostly.
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True, but we do want the League of Enedwaith to last more than a few lives of middle-men.

agumentic said:
Just saying "cope" to our people is unlikely to be helpful, though. So I'd vote to just go with the tried and true tradition of building a temple to address such spiritual issues.
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Building a temple is the acme of performative gestures, would do little to placate the most fearful (that is, least Faithful), and would moreover delay all other building projects (including the iron port and shipyard which are near completion). Let us not be hasty in our response to this tragedy, nor let the fear of death consume our thoughts, but keep calm and carry on.
 
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Zimmerwald1915 said:
the thing that would not be a performative gesture is improving safety standards, but this is not an option available to us
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Life, Unending covers that, actually.

Telamon said:
The masters of the House of Life may mend the broken and the bleeding
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If it was some Elder dying from old age I would say "Yeah, perspetives of transhumanism are a bit slim in this setting". But this was an accident that could be prevented. Сome to terms with this is the same if Barazir sayed "It's sad that kid is missing, but it is not really matter because Doom is Unerring anyway".
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
That refers to a medical intervention - I was thinking more in terms of limitations on the working day and a safety inspectorate on the worksites.
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*cough*

  • The Guild of Workers: After several centuries, the constant pressure which the Shapers put on those who built their mighty towers and delved their mines was too much for the common workers of Numenor, who banded together to form a guild of their own, the Zabathani -- literally, the Humble Ones, called also the Magâni, or the Builders. In their power, they now control all miners, builders, and laborers on the Blessed Isle itself, granting them an immense amount of negotiating power with the other Guilds. To escape their influence, the Venturers and the Shapers often outsource their projects to the colonies, where the influence of the Guild of Workers is less. The workers have no single leader, and rule by committee, but one of their member is elected to represent them on the Council of the King.
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in retrospect telling our people to cope bluntly is prob not the best idea so prob gonna vote for fear overcome

also this is obv referring to our city Death is not what consumes you I am thinking it fear the consume you
 
I'm firmly in favor of telling everyone to get over it. The Shapers are coming very soon for the performance review. Let's at least get the current projects completed before they arrive

Telamon said:
On this matter, you do two things: first, you send a messenger to the Shapers in Numenor, summoning their envoy forth. If they are pleased with your progress thus far, they may foist great rewards upon you, or even aid you in recruiting more colonists. (The envoy will arrive in approximately two turns. Be ready.)
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[] Death, Overmastered: You promise to your people that you shall have a space cleared in a spot in the colony where nothing shall be permitted to grow. The earth will be salted and treated with the nineteen oils of the ancient ritual, so as to banish the worms and the eaters-of-flesh. There on the dead earth you will raise a black hall of black stone, cold and high, where the dead of Tar Nilon may lie forever, incorrupt in the darkness until death is overcome. A black ship may come from Númenor in the months after, though you will not call it. On the ship will be many tall men in black robes, and they will have no names, and some will have no eyes or tongues, and the House of Death shall come to Tar Nilon. (All other construction in the city is stopped.)

Okay, hear me out. This is clearly the overtly evil, necromanty option, possibly leading to a death cult. Otoh, it's basically cryo, and I like the fact that it's the only option that treats the Gift of Men not with rejection, revulsion or antagonism, but with skepticism. Why do Men have to die? We don't understand, and until we do understand, we shall hedge our bets. - If there was some way to learn to bind ancestor spirits, in a way that's associated with nature, that'd be the option I'd prefer the most - not giving the ancients authority over the future, but preserving their voice for some more years before their passing - and if this one does branch into necromancy, it's the option that will get closest to that, even if it does look overtly dark. Barring all that, the creepy corpse cult vote is at least novel.

(Okay, clearly no option that has to be qualified this much should actually be picked. But coorpse cuuult...)
 
My gutread is to go for eagles or coping. Overcoming fear vis Elrond's letter, or taking a morale hit early in order to secure long-term infrastructure seems wisest to me

Edit: on further thought, I'm now 70:30 cope:eagles. If we don't interrupt our construction we get a shipyard, which is guaranteed to give options that similarly guarantee a lift of spirits, which then compounds because the Shapers delegation will give us more supplies and more people (who are as of yet untouched by fear).
I'm going to vote that way, unless someone has a compelling argument for eagles.
 
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In general, I'm against helping Tharbad more than we have to, at least while the little lordling is still in charge. His utter contempt for the Middle Men sits badly with me. We want him on our side, yes, but I do not want to get him onboard if it means that we simply accept his heavy-handed lordship over the men who have lived here since long before Numenor existed.

I'd be on board with visiting Elrond this turn to say hi to the great-uncle.

Still think we need to tell people "Death is a part of life and a part of who we are; it is tragic, it hurts, but you cannot ultimately hold it back anymore than you can stop the tide from coming and going. That this man died young from an accident is doubly tragic, in that he leaves behind potential... but we cannot and should not let that fear and sorrow control us."
 
Rat King said:
In general, I'm against helping Tharbad more than we have to, at least while the little lordling is still in charge. His utter contempt for the Middle Men sits badly with me.
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He is not as bad as I feared. At least he theoretically agrees with concept of cooperation.

Telamon said:
Your plan is bold, and at the hearing of it I was first unsettled, but there is a wisdom in it, my lord. Many of these clans of which they speak are tributaries already to me. I could relinquish them, as you say, and
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Although it'll be a toughie.
 
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Right now, the best way we can go about preparing to repay our debts is to grow the colony. We're still setting up fundamental infrastructure, and we need to establish trade, which will be how we make our wealth. The Shapers made a massive investment in the colony, and that is an investment which will repay itself over decades. Starting to think about direct repayment right now is premature, I think.

Telamon said:
*cough*
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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8EMx7Y16Vo

Rat King said:
In general, I'm against helping Tharbad more than we have to, at least while the little lordling is still in charge. His utter contempt for the Middle Men sits badly with me. We want him on our side, yes, but I do not want to get him onboard if it means that we simply accept his heavy-handed lordship over the men who have lived here since long before Numenor existed.
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Right now, we have gotten him to agree to forfeit that lordship and enter into a diplomatic arrangement with the Middle Men he intimidates, in exchange for our help and greater mutual security. That's not nothing. It's a start.

Harzaban is... difficult, but he is also a lost young man who is desperately trying to live up to a half-imagined image of what a Númenórean lord should be. The haughty attitude, the racism, the assumption of superiority and dominance, they are all traits that our own people share. In many ways, his flaws are a reflection of Númenór's own sins, the figurative (and also literal) bastard child of our imperialism.

And if he is redeemable, then just maybe, so are we.

...I have an idea.
 
I feel that the longer we wait in building a house of life and a house of death the harder it will be to integrate them to our way of thinking. The more entrenched their position.
And I think Elrond can wait and we should visit Ironbark.
 
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