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Westernesse: A Númenórean Colony Quest

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[X] Plan Say no to Oligarchies, Brun Gledd edition
- [X] Men of the West
- [X] Hall of Speakers
- [X] Begin Construction Project
-- [X] Ûrîphêl
- [X] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies
- [X] Forge Arms
- [X] Expand the Militia
- [X] Send An Envoy To Rivendell
- [X] Send an Envoy to Dol Amroth
- [X] The Tyrant in the Tower
- [X] The Misty Mountains
- [X] The Land of the Ringmakers
- [X] The Orc Hunter
-- [X] Inzilbeth

It is perhaps too late, but I still didn't see an explanation as to why we would visit Tharbad before Brun Gledd to find out what is going on with this war. Therefore, there it is - the winning plan, except Imrazor visits Brun Gledd first. I encourage anyone who also wants to check on the state of Enedwaithrim with our own eyes to at least approval vote it.
Hoppylo said:
Yeah they weren't vassals. More like little brothers to Athens who did whatever with the leauge backing them sometime other times not. They mostly followed Athens for convenience sake but they were rarely forced to do something they didn't want to do.
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Yeah, I too take tribute in money and ships from my little brothers and then pillage them and break down their walls if they try to move out. Thucydides didn't call it a hegemony because of how allowing it was.
 
agumentic said:
[X] Plan Say no to Oligarchies, Brun Gledd edition
- [X] Men of the West
- [X] Hall of Speakers
- [X] Begin Construction Project
-- [X] Ûrîphêl
- [X] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies
- [X] Forge Arms
- [X] Expand the Militia
- [X] Send An Envoy To Rivendell
- [X] Send an Envoy to Dol Amroth
- [X] The Tyrant in the Tower
- [X] The Misty Mountains
- [X] The Land of the Ringmakers
- [X] The Orc Hunter
-- [X] Inzilbeth

It is perhaps too late, but I still didn't see an explanation as to why we would visit Tharbad before Brun Gledd to find out what is going on with this war. Therefore, there it is - the winning plan, except Imrazor visits Brun Gledd first. I encourage anyone who also wants to check on the state of Enedwaithrim with our own eyes to at least approval vote it.

Yeah, I too take tribute in money and ships from my little brothers and then pillage them and break down their walls if they try to move out. Thucydides didn't call it a hegemony because of how allowing it was.
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Athens even took protection money, for a Persian invasion that they preemptively negotiated away but didn't tell anybody about. :V
 
agumentic said:
Yeah, I too take tribute in money and ships from my little brothers and then pillage them and break down their walls if they try to move out. Thucydides didn't call it a hegemony because of how allowing it was.
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I probably should have made it clear I wasn't talking about the Delian Leauge, I was talking about the Second Athenian Leauge which changed lots of which made the Delian Leauge so unfair for the smaller members of the League. Tribute and garrisons weren't imposed upon the members by Athens and all in all it was much better than its predecessor, but it kinda fell apart after Thebes left and started doing their thing.
 
Hoppylo said:
I probably should have made it clear I wasn't talking about the Delian Leauge, I was talking about the Second Athenian Leauge which changed lots of which made the Delian Leauge so unfair for the smaller members of the League. Tribute and garrisons weren't imposed upon the members by Athens and all in all it was much better than its predecessor, but it kinda fell apart after Thebes left and started doing their thing.
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In all fairness, part of the reason the Second Athenian League dissolved is because they had a bit of a social war... caused by "Athens' increasingly dominating stance." I'm afraid it still doesn't have the best moral here :V
 
agumentic said:
Members of the Delian League were many things, but I wouldn't call them "not vassals".
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Yeah, I'm hoping for and envisioning some type of diplomatic league, but one where we're don't dictate policies to other members. It's a bit difficult to go to past examples, since we're treating them as equal sovereign nations, instead of turning them into vassals. Maybe the Hansa would be a better comparison?
 
Well within the any of the Leagues of history there was always a leader among them who either dictated policy or had such clout that to go against their policy would be detrimental to your own city/nation etc.

The advantage that we have is that we have the wisdom(hopefully) to not fall into the trap of wanting to become the hegemon by force. And hopefully our policy isn't all filled with self interest and greed in mind like so many irl examples.

Edit-btw how old are we?

Edit-2 Looking to the Italian city states and their alliances and leagues where even the leaders were more like first among equals and were similar in power and status to their allies would be good. Although Italian alliances were famously fickle, but let's ignore that for now lol.
 
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Chief18753 said:
Political infighting maybe, but what cultural rot? What pervasive and self destroying cultural degradation do they possess that's anywhere close to what drove Numenor to rebel against the damn Gods and have the Almighty lay down judgement upon them?

Also, assimilating any cultural rot is rather against the point when they're suppose to want to become more like us, except without the overwhelmingly unhealthy obsession with death.
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And the idea that Men outside of the Numenoreans are incapable of malevolence is patently naive at best and willful ignorance at worst. You seem so happy to jump at the opportunity to view these people as equal to Numenoreans yet apparently you also seem to think them free of the malice which rests inside the hearts of all Men.

On another note I'm pretty sure our sum total knowledge from Tolkien on what the people of Enedwaith were like was all of a line or two I think. So maybe we should wait a little before jumping to assumptions on what these people may or may not be like.
 
UwU said:
And the idea that Men outside of the Numenoreans are incapable of malevolence is patently naive at best and willful ignorance at worst. You seem so happy to jump at the opportunity to view these people as equal to Numenoreans yet apparently you also seem to think them free of the malice which rests inside the hearts of all Men.

On another note I'm pretty sure our sum total knowledge from Tolkien on what the people of Enedwaith were like was all of a line or two I think. So maybe we should wait a little before jumping to assumptions on what these people may or may not be like.
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.... what? There are literally Men of Darkness out there worshiping Sauron and you think I'm being ignorant to "malice in Men's hearts"? Dude, stop.

Evil and potential for it in Human beings is an ingrained thing in the species, it has nothing to do with culture.

Also, I asked you what cultural rot the Middle Men had, and you responded with "all Men have evil in their hearts". That's not a freaking answer
 
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UwU said:
And the idea that Men outside of the Numenoreans are incapable of malevolence is patently naive at best and willful ignorance at worst. You seem so happy to jump at the opportunity to view these people as equal to Numenoreans yet apparently you also seem to think them free of the malice which rests inside the hearts of all Men.

On another note I'm pretty sure our sum total knowledge from Tolkien on what the people of Enedwaith were like was all of a line or two I think. So maybe we should wait a little before jumping to assumptions on what these people may or may not be like.
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Eh more or less. What Tolkien did mention is that most of the people of Enedwaith really fucking hated the Numenoreans because the Numenoreans deforested nearly the entire region before the War of the Elves and Sauron.

Oh, and they're related to the House of Haleth but the Numenoreans were arrogant jackasses and didn't realize it.

I am honestly rather skeptical of the idea that there would be so much support for seeing the Middle Men as equals by this time in the Second Age. Like, the most benevolent Numenorean colonizers, the Faithful of Gondor, still were very much Numenorean supremacist four thousand years later. Because literally everything we know about Numenor says they were racist.

I mean, hell, I shouldn't even need to mention the numerous expansionist wars that Gondor waged up until Hyarmendacil.

Meh, I imagine that The Nature of Middle-earth will at least give us some interesting context on the matter. It is said to have info on Numenor. Maybe I'll finally be able to read the Rivers and Beacon Hills without having to visit the Russian side of the Internet.
 
Chief18753 said:
.... what? There are literally Men of Darkness out there worshiping Sauron and you think I'm being ignorant to "malice in Men's hearts"? Dude, stop.

Evil and potential for it in Human beings is an ingrained thing in the species, it has nothing to do with culture.

Also, I asked you what cultural rot the Middle Men had, and you responded with "all Men have evil in their hearts". That's not a freaking answer
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Cultural rot starts somewhere, and it almost always starts with people. This isn't a super complex thing here it's literally connecting two points.

Perhaps I came off a bit too strong on this and I apologize for that. I'm merely looking at your plans and pointing to the flaws as I see them. The most notable one currently being our almost complete lack of any information of the people you are adamant will become a powerful ally of ours. This isn't me saying it's impossible, I'm almost positive that with the right investiture of time and resources we could manage it, but I can't say for absolute certainty and I wanted to point that out.
 
MrHobbit said:
Eh more or less. What Tolkien did mention is that most of the people of Enedwaith really fucking hated the Numenoreans because the Numenoreans deforested nearly the entire region before the War of the Elves and Sauron.

Oh, and they're related to the House of Haleth but the Numenoreans were arrogant jackasses and didn't realize it.

I am honestly rather skeptical of the idea that there would be so much support for seeing the Middle Men as equals by this time in the Second Age. Like, the most benevolent Numenorean colonizers, the Faithful of Gondor, still were very much Numenorean supremacist four thousand years later. Because literally everything we know about Numenor says they were racist.

I mean, hell, I shouldn't even need to mention the numerous expansionist wars that Gondor waged up until Hyarmendacil.

Meh, I imagine that The Nature of Middle-earth will at least give us some interesting context on the matter. It is said to have info on Numenor. Maybe I'll finally be able to read the Rivers and Beacon Hills without having to visit the Russian side of the Internet.
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The support for such a position draws largely from those descendants of the House of Haleth among your people — you took a fair amount with you. They lived side-by-side with the Númenórean Druedain until they left, and remained ever a somber and sober people, even among the Númenóreans. The Isle proper is dominated by the descendants of the House of Hador, the most numerous, and the descendants of the House of Beor, who skew strongly to the Faithful. The intermingling of the Edain over the centuries has diminished many of these old cultural lines, but they have survived in many traditions and and outlooks — the blood of Hador Goldenhead, for example, runs in the veins of the Blessed Isle's most martial. The Haladin in particular were the smallest of the Houses of the Edain when they came to Númenór and so took great effort for many generations to not be swallowed entirely by their kindred. Their views may be uncommon in Númenór proper, but the Haladin more than all others still remember when the Edain, too, lived wild in the forest and knew no fair speech.

EDIT: Remember that the deeds of Númenór represented in the Akallabeth are on the scale of millennia. Hundreds of years are summed up in sentences. The majority view that currently dominates the Isle and will lead it down into ruin will still take seven hundred years to become so powerful politically that none might challenge them. One must imagine that there lived in the twilight of the Númenóreans many who did not agree with the deeds of the King and his Men, or the attitudes and beliefs which became most prominent among their people in later days. On the Blessed Isle, their voices might be drowned out (heh), but what about in a colony of barely a thousand, where they and theirs have been brought over in the hundreds?


That said, voting closes in about four hours.
 
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Let's remember that we want to befriend the longbeards to grow rich. So we should probably contact them soon.
 
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  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by Telamon on Jan 28, 2021 at 4:28 AM, finished with 84 posts and 44 votes.
    saynotooligarchiesohmenofthewest destiny conventionalwisdom Default saynotooligarchiesopportunitiesedition menofthewestpreparing saynotooligarchiesbrungleddedition
    • 15
      [X] Plan Say no to Oligarchies, oh men of the west!
      - [X] Men of the West
      - [X] Hall of Speakers
      - [X] Begin Construction Project
      -- [X] Ûrîphêl
      - [X] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies
      - [X] Forge Arms
      - [X] Expand the Militia
      - [X] Send An Envoy To Rivendell
      - [X] Send an Envoy to Dol Amroth
      - [X] The Tyrant in the Tower
      --[X] Alternate: Do not visit the Middle-Men, but travel to Tharbad instead to question them on the Middle-Men's claims. (Requires Imrazor)
      - [X] The Misty Mountains
      - [X] The Land of the Ringmakers
      - [X] The Orc Hunter
      -- [X] Inzilbeth
    • 11
      [X] Plan Destiny
      -[x] Men of the West
      -[x] Makâtha
      -[x] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies:
      -[x] Begin Construction Project
      -[x] Watch the Mountains
      -[x]Ironbark
      --[X] Imrazor
      -[x] The War of the Blacklocks and the Longbeards
      --[x] Send an envoy to Durin's Folk
      -- [X] Inzilbeth
      -[x] The Misty Mountains
      -[x] The Land of the Ringmakers
      -[x] Nargil-Dûm
      --[x] Uriphel
      -[x]Investigate the Branded Orcs
      -[x]The Orc Hunter
    • 11
      [X] Plan Conventional Wisdom
    • 1
      [X] Kings of Men: The Tall Men were not given Middle-Earth. They are not rulers and conquerors and takers of tribute, but friends and teachers and guiding hands. Those who hold this stance believe that it is the duty and the forbearance of the Númenóreans to safeguard and protect the Middle-Men however possible, to raise them up and shelter them from harm until they may take their place in the sun, as the elves sheltered us in older days. This is how the Faithful carry themselves, in their cities such as Pelargir, where they marry the Middle-Men freely. This is a majority position among your people -- you can hardly help but hear them cheer for it in the streets. Should you pick this option, you will be more friendly to the Middle-Men diplomatically, seeking to form deals, educate, and peacefully vassalize.
      [X] Council of the Sea-Lord: You form a representative Council drawn from the most influential factions in the city, to advise you on the people's feelings towards your actions and to serve as capable functionaries. Once the Guilds begin to burrow their tendrils into this city, as they do all cities, they will certainly like this familiar system -- it is how Númenór is governed, though at some point along the way 'influential factions' came to mean 'The Guilds, and the Guilds alone'. Dealing with them would likely interfere somewhat with your ability to get things done, and the Council's power may grow with time. (Reduce the amount of vote options a turn to 8. Each turn, your advisors will inform you to a vague level what the people are most interested in seeing done. Your people will be only slightly disgruntled if you ignore their opinions. Councilors may attempt to increase the influence of their faction through...unsavory means.)
      [X] Begin Construction Project: Ûrîphêl and the Shapers have many plans for unique buildings and expansion projects that could dot the city. Hear them out and pick one.
      [X] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies: You encourage the wise and well-read Faithful to make their way from the eastern colonies to dwell in your city. Your proximity to the Elf-realms makes this easier, but being known as an open Elf-Friend would help matters further.
      [X] Expand the Militia: Enlist more volunteers to the defense of the city, should you think it necessary.
      [X] Forge Arms: With basic forges complete, you may begin forging blades and weapons to arm your people. With no source of iron presently, you will have to use inferior bog iron -- but a sword is better than no sword.
      [X] Watch the Mountains: Eyes in the crags, voices in the dells, a shadow on the heights. The White Mountains hold a threat that at any moment could spill over all Enedwaith. Plant a guard to watch the Pukel-Paths, and see who comes and who goes by them.
      [X] Send An Envoy To Lindon: Far to the north, beyond the Blue Mountains, lies the Elvish realm of Lindon, the mightiest realm between the mountains and the sea. Here rules undying Gil-Galad, the High King of whom the songs are sung and the greatest of all the elven-lords of Middle-Earth. Though their might has dwindled much since they warred with Sauron, the northern Elves are still great in strength and skill, a fading echo of the glory of Elder Days.
      [X] Send an Envoy to Dol Amroth: The sister-settlements of Dol Amroth and Edhellond lie far to the southeast in the Bay of Belfalas beyond the Anduin. Populated by both men and elves, the greatest power in these lands are the Lord and Lady of Edhellond, the Elf-prince Celeborn and his wife, the Elf-Lady Galadriel. Belfalas is a rich land and a good land, packed thick with food and fair things, and establishing a relationship with it's masters might benefit your city.
      -[X] Alternate: Do not visit the Middle-Men, but travel to Tharbad instead to question them on the Middle-Men's claims. (Requires Imrazor)
      [X] The Misty Mountains: The Misty Mountains which straddle the spine of Eriador are some of the tallest mountains in Middle-Earth. From the great outposts of the dwarves to the deep caves of the goblin-kings, there are many secrets to be found amid the snowy peaks. You send men into the high mountains to explore and map them further. (2/6)
      [X] The Land of the Ringmakers: Eregion, to your north, was once one of the great Elvish realms until it's destruction by the Dark Lord in the War of the Elves and Sauron long ago. Here dwelt the elf-smiths whom the Enemy tricked into creating the Rings of Power, and amid the ruins of their halls and cities lie ancient artifacts from the glory days of the Elves. You send explorers and riders into this land to map it further. (2/6)
    • 16
      [X] Plan Say no to Oligarchies - opportunities edition
      -[x] Men of the West
      -[x] Hall of Speakers
      -[x] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies:
      -[x] Begin Construction Project
      -[x] Forge Arms
      -[x] Watch the Mountains
      -[x] The War of the Blacklocks and the Longbeards
      --[x] Send an envoy to Durin's Folk (requires hero)
      -- [X] Ûrîphêl
      --[x] Send an envoy to the Blacklocks (requires hero)
      -- [X] Inzilbeth
      -[x] The Tyrant in the Tower
      --[X] Alternate: Do not visit the Middle-Men, but travel to Tharbad instead to question them on the Middle-Men's claims. (Requires Imrazor)
      -[x]Investigate the Branded Orcs
      -[x] Invite Survey
      -[x]The Orc Hunter
    • 1
      [X] Plan Men of the West, preparing
      -[x] Men of the West
      -[x] Hall of Speakers
      -[X] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies - Inzilbeth
      -[X] Expand the Militia
      -[x] Forge Arms
      -[X] Send An Envoy To Lond Daer
      -[X] Send An Envoy To Rivendell
      -[X] The Tyrant in the Tower (Requires Imrazor)
      -[x] The Misty Mountains
      -[X] The Gwathlo
      -[X] Invite Survey - Ûrîphêl
      -[x]The Orc Hunter
    • 1
      [X] Plan Say no to Oligarchies, Brun Gledd edition
      - [X] Men of the West
      - [X] Hall of Speakers
      - [X] Begin Construction Project
      -- [X] Ûrîphêl
      - [X] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies
      - [X] Forge Arms
      - [X] Expand the Militia
      - [X] Send An Envoy To Rivendell
      - [X] Send an Envoy to Dol Amroth
      - [X] The Tyrant in the Tower
      - [X] The Misty Mountains
      - [X] The Land of the Ringmakers
      - [X] The Orc Hunter
      -- [X] Inzilbeth
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  • Voting
    • Telamon said:
    The support for such a position draws largely from those descendants of the House of Haleth among your people — you took a fair amount with you. They lived side-by-side with the Númenórean Druedain until they left, and remained ever a somber and sober people, even among the Númenóreans. The Isle proper is dominated by the descendants of the House of Hador, the most numerous, and the descendants of the House of Beor, who skew strongly to the Faithful. The intermingling of the Edain over the centuries has diminished many of these old cultural lines, but they have survived in many traditions and and outlooks — the blood of Hador Goldenhead, for example, runs in the veins of the Blessed Isle's most martial. The Haladin in particular were the smallest of the Houses of the Edain when they came to Númenór and so took great effort for many generations to not be swallowed entirely by their kindred. Their views may be uncommon in Númenór proper, but the Haladin more than all others still remember when the Edain, too, lived wild in the forest and knew no fair speech.

    EDIT: Remember that the deeds of Númenór represented in the Akallabeth are on the scale of millennia. Hundreds of years are summed up in sentences. The majority view that currently dominates the Isle and will lead it down into ruin will still take seven hundred years to become so powerful politically that none might challenge them. One must imagine that there lived in the twilight of the Númenóreans many who did not agree with the deeds of the King and his Men, or the attitudes and beliefs which became most prominent among their people in later days. On the Blessed Isle, their voices might be drowned out (heh), but what about in a colony of barely a thousand, where they and theirs have been brought over in the hundreds?


    That said, voting closes in about four hours.
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    I am aware that the views come from the House of Haleth, I still find them to be remarkably unbelieveable. You, infact, pointed out the greatest counter argument against the idea. That being the Druedain.

    The Druedain had always stayed by the members of the House of Haleth, and after Numenor turned to Imperialism they started to flat out leave. That to me implies that, if members of the House of Haleth hadn't been flat out absorbed into mainstream Numenorean society, the Druedain found issue with the Men they had lived among for so long.

    That said, you would expect them to support the uplifting rather than full equality because that is how Tolkien framed the Numenoreans of this age.

    I would expect the main factions to be between Kings of Men and Kings over Men.
     
    MrHobbit said:
    I am aware that the views come from the House of Haleth, I still find them to be remarkably unbelieveable. You, infact, pointed out the greatest counter argument against the idea. That being the Druedain.

    The Druedain had always stayed by the members of the House of Haleth, and after Numenor turned to Imperialism they started to flat out leave. That to me implies that, if members of the House of Haleth hadn't been flat out absorbed into mainstream Numenorean society, the Druedain found issue with the Men they had lived among for so long.

    That said, you would expect them to support the uplifting rather than full equality because that is how Tolkien framed the Numenoreans of this age.

    I would expect the main factions to be between Kings of Men and Kings over Men.
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    Perhaps they would be in other colonies, but Kings of Men is a hyperminority view among the colonists — only a very small section of them are King's Men or come from regions where they are strong. Each of the 'outlook' votes actually matches up proportionally to the various cultural groups brought over from Númenór. Imrazór (or, rather, you all) self-selected for groups with more unique and non-mainstream cultural leanings, in your effort to avoid tying yourselves either way in the struggle between the Faithful and the King's Men.

    [] Hyarrostar: Last but far from least of all is the heavily-wooded southeastern region of Hyarrostar. It is here that the quiet and reclusive House of Haleth settled long ago. Nearly destroyed in their entirety during the First Age, their descendants have been slow to recover, and though they walk with Numenorean pride and Numenorean strength, they are still a quiet and reserved sort, shorter than most Numenoreans, slow to violence and capable of blending into the woods like no other. Master woodsmen and consummate adventurers, the Men of Hyarrostar are often chosen by the Guild of Striders and the Host of the King to serve as scouts and explorers, for they can move long miles unseen by beast or foe.
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    Three full ships of the Hyarrostari sailed to the Isen, and only one from Mittalmar and none from Hyarnustar, the two most thickly populated (and urban) parts of Númenór where the king is loved best. Five sailed from Andustar where they yet love the elves, and three from Romenna where all they care to master are the waves. Two sailed last of all from Forrostar, where the most put-upon and politically dissatisfied group of Númenóreans dwell.

    As I said, many of these groups and their voices are ill-heard on the Blessed Isle proper, or even in the cities of the Faithful, where they are an ultraminority, but here even four hundred Haladin are a sizeable voice.

    As for the Druedain, they counted the Haladin dear friends — but there are with every millennia less and less of the Haladin, and more and more of the tall proud lords who sneer to speak of other Men. Númenór has quickly become uncomfortable even for many of the Númenóreans, to say little of the kindly Wood-Woses. Indeed, were I a Númenórean who held the old ways in high favor, who looked with friendship upon elves or 'lesser' men (who perhaps did not even think them lesser at all!), who held no great love for Ar-Belzagar's dreams of empire...well, I might want to follow the example of the Druedain, and leave the Blessed Isle at the first opportunity.
     
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    We can only hope that by the time the Kings Men decided to reinforce their interests in Middle Earth (Under Saurons pervue, or before) that we are viewed as neither an enemy, or a rival. or if we do, are capable of fending them off.

    As we spout extremely minority postions among the Edain, we may well become a target when the more vengeful and cruel Kings of the West rise to power.
     
    Telamon said:
    Perhaps they would be in other colonies, but Kings of Men is a hyperminority view among the colonists — only a very small section of them are King's Men or come from regions where they are strong. Each of the 'outlook' votes actually matches up proportionally to the various cultural groups brought over from Númenór. Imrazór (or, rather, you all) self-selected for groups with more unique and non-mainstream cultural leanings, in your effort to avoid tying yourselves either way in the struggle between the Faithful and the King's Men.
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    Yes I am aware of that, but there being a significant minority of people who believe the Middle Men are full on equals still requires substantial suspension of disbelief. Simply because I doubt the people pushing for equality among the races would be all that interested in expanding the Realm of Numenor.

    Political dissidents are often more interested in their own issues than that of other concerns.

    You seem to have misunderstood what the Druedain were doing. They weren't leaving Numenor to set up colonies. They were flat out abandoning Numenor to join their more primitive cousins in the Druwaith Iaur and the rest of Middle-earth.

    Edit: I suppose it is possible, there will always be exceptions, but it still doesn't really feel in character from what Tolkien wrote of the Numenoreans.
     
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    MrHobbit said:
    Yes I am aware of that, but there being a significant minority of people who believe the Middle Men are full on equals still requires substantial suspension of disbelief. Simply because I doubt the people pushing for equality among the races would be all that interested in expanding the Realm of Numenor.

    Political dissidents are often more interested in their own issues than that of other concerns.

    You seem to have misunderstood what the Druedain were doing. They weren't leaving Numenor to set up colonies. They were flat out abandoning Numenor to join their more primitive cousins in the Druwaith Iaur and the rest of Middle-earth.
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    Perhaps I was being too indirect with my language -- if the Druedain abandoned Numenor because they were unhappy with the state of things, and the Faithful left Numenor because they were unhappy with the state of things, then why would others who are unhappy with the state of things not also do so? I wasn't suggesting the Druedain were setting up colonies, I was suggesting that many of the Haladin might feel much the same as they did, and that these increasingly marginalized men in particular would be more than willing to hop aboard a ship to go to Middle-Earth if asked.

    The Druedain began to leave the island all the way back during the golden age, in the reign of the sixth king, Tar-Aldarion, because they disagreed with his explorations and settling of havens altogether, long before the Numenoreans began to persecute or even interact with the Middle-Men. Clearly, many among the Numenoreans, even at their best, did not feel that the act of settling the coasts was improper -- or perhaps the Druedain were simply more far-sighted than they.

    And you are correct that political dissidents often care very much about their own issues. That's why the Forrostari, who only very recently (for Numenoreans) just finished arguing for their rights as workers and organizing against ill-treatment by the Shapers, care very little about the Faithful or the King's Men.

    Lastly, a significant minority is overestimating it drastically-- there are perhaps tens of thousands of Haladin (or men who would identify strongly as such, anyway) left on an island of millions. That is less than 3-4% of the total population.

    (For comparison, there are ~450 Haladin in your colony of 1519.)
     
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    Telamon said:
    Perhaps I was being too indirect with my language -- if the Druedain abandoned Numenor because they were unhappy with the state of things, and the Faithful left Numenor because they were unhappy with the state of things, then why would others who are unhappy with the state of things not also do so? I wasn't suggesting the Druedain were setting up colonies, I was suggesting that many of the Haladin might feel much the same as they did, and that these increasingly marginalized men in particular would be more than willing to hop aboard a ship to go to Middle-Earth if asked.
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    The Druedain and Faithful both left Numenor in completely different ways. The Druedain foresaw that the building of ships would ultimately damn Numenor and began to leave it. The last remnants left when Ar-Pharzon captured Sauron and brought him to the Land of the Gift.

    The Faithful disagreed with the policies of the Kings that snubbed the Valar and the Elves. So they colonized to be closer to the elves. They didn't have the type of disagreement that the Men of the West faction did.

    My point is, if they disagreed with how the King of Numenor was treating the Middle Men, why would they work to expand his realm?
     
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