That didn't stop them from sending and reviving certain wizards now did they?

To defeat Sauron and said Wizard still departed for Undying lands afterwards.

In this I vehemently disagree. It's like if Middle Earth was a fine triple decker burger, but without the lettuce and tomatoes to complement the patties!

Some things are really inevitable, like sinking of Numenor . Believe me a great interventions of the Valars tend to backfire spectacularly. Time for their intervention has already passed what leaves now is correction of the mistake made.
 
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And when we are by extinguishing Sauron that literally means extinguishing the power of his rings as well which in turn also means three elven rings of power at which point Elves are assured to leave for undying lands.

A good thing the world master title covers fea replenishment as well.

towards his oldest and bitterest enemy, the sole creature which might challenge his claim to mastery of all the world: the Wizard, Sauron of Mordor.

Unless Sauron is the sole authority now for it now in Middle Earth now eh? Ar-Belzagar?

we cannot stop corruption that's taking Numenor and the decline of Man, let alone stop departure of the Elves.

We may not stop what is beyond our abilities now. But let it not blind nor stop you to the possibilities in what little time we can master.

To defeat Sauron and said Wizard still departed for Undying lands afterwards.

And yet, still the Istari were sent. The point remains- The Valar will help. Just not directly nor too much.

Some things are really inevitable, like sinking of Numenor . Believe me a great interventions of the Valars tend to backfire spectacularly. Time for their intervention has already passed what leaves now is correction of the mistake made.

The Numenorian of that time languished, and wallowed in their heresy, thus had sank. We as of now, have time, difficult it may be- to lead to our people to a different path it is after all, a quest!

Whether or not the Isle sinks or follows or should we succeed in breaking the Elves Fading? Be successful maybe in finding the mystery of the Entwifus? All depends on our decisions and the roll of the Die.
 
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We may not stop what is beyond our abilities now. But let it not blind nor stop you to the possibilities in what little time we can master.

It's not about the mastery, it's about lack of power. Humans literally aren't made to create these sorts of things, human by its nature cannot be better than elves at magic, or crafting they are the guests to the world.

And yet, still the Istari were sent. The point remains- The Valar will help. Just not directly nor too much.

Greatly diminished to serve only as guides, but never to reshape the world and even then one had gone mad. Ultimately great interventions of the Valars all had unforseen consequences, them moving to Aman and making it a paradise instead of fortress to further fight Morgoth, taking Elves and smoldering their potential, then leaving Men to Morgoth , Numenor itself where they gave the race of man everything yet left them only to gaze at the Paradise and leaving Middle-Men as lesser race of Man,while countless others still toiled under the Shadow of Sauron (yea they left Sauron unpunished as well), after Numenor meets its demise I don't believe that Valar will get to make a grand changes to the song anymore as Eru will literally divide the world.

Nor will there be a will to reshape the world on their side.

The Numenorian of that time languished, and wallowed in their heresy, thus had sank. We as of now, have time, difficult it may be- to lead to our people to a different path it is after all, a quest!

This is no heresy, it's direct consequence of early humans being exposed to Morgoth early on and Valar messing further with human nature by giving them a gift that worsened corruption of Morgoth.

Whether or not the Isle sinks or follows or should we succeed in breaking the Elves Fading? Be successful maybe in finding the mystery of the Entwifus? All depends on our decisions and the roll of the Die.

Some things are just narrative, but by that logic Numenorians should have been able to find secrets of immorality.

Just like humans suffer from death elves had gotten the other side of the coin, to see the world when it was at its greatest and then to watch it decline. We should really ask ourselves, do the Elves want to stay in middle Earth where this is far worse for them than in Aman?

But Ultimately Elven Fading in middle earth is the same as Death of Man, you cannot reverse one if you don't reverse the other and in that lies the heresy of Numenor.

We could technically create a Rings of power that stop Elven Fading, but by that logic we could also forge the Ring that stops Human aging and prolongs their lives. We shouldn't try to change the direction of the song, but should try to make it as easy for us as possible.
 
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And when we are by extinguishing Sauron that literally means extinguishing the power of his rings as well which in turn also means three elven rings of power at which point Elves are assured to leave for undying lands.
But the elves aren't using the three rings right now. That doesn't start until after the last alliance.
 
Humans literally aren't made to create these sorts of things, human by its nature cannot be better than elves at magic, or crafting they are the guests to the world.

We can always ask the Elves if we can prove ourselves at an earlier point. Or if we reigned in the Dwarf Civil War, maybe stout folk for some of their drip.

If there's one thing we are good at when we do get our heads together without the saber rattling- it's networking and making friends.

after Numenor meets its demise I don't believe that Valar will get to make a grand changes to the song anymore as Eru will literally divide the world.

Well, Numenor isn't underwater yet, So we got ourselves a shot! 😊

it's direct consequence of early humans being exposed to Morgoth early on and Valar messing further with human nature by giving them a gift that worsened corruption of Morgoth.

And despite such corruption still we got Aragorn, still got Faramir, the Gondor and Rohan Alliance despite their drama years earlier.

We should really ask ourselves, do the Elves want to stay in middle Earth?

Can we make it so the Elves want to stay in Middle Earth?

We could technically create a Rings of power that stop Elven Fading, but by that logic we could also forge the Ring that stops Human aging and prolongs their lives. We shouldn't try to change the direction of the song, but should try to make it as easy for us as possible.

The Song must play, but who's to say what is within the notes in quest now is "easy"? There's some parts within I am certain will still be "hard" to hear regardless. Either way, as you say- the themes are set, but not in a way you or I may know how it will play out exactly (in quest).


But Ultimately Elven Fading in middle earth is the same as Death of Man, you cannot reverse one if you don't reverse the other and in that lies the heresy of Numenor.

Well, there's no reason for the old Elves to go out if they want. Just leave a lot of younglings to go frolic around to headpat us!

Still though, I want to do it! The Elves must be saved! Saved from themselves even!
Heck maybe we could split the sky to loop a leitmotif maybe? Now the backlash of that would be interesting.:thonk:
 
But the elves aren't using the three rings right now. That doesn't start until after the last alliance.

Even then the decline and exodus of the Elves can't really be reversed.

Generally the way I see it is that this is the end outcome, it isn't Elves that are abandoning humans, but the human part of the Song in Arda is the one actually ending. Generally human are always ment to be the guests in Arda, not its permanent residents, they are generally meant to go back to Eru after death. What Morgoth did is convinced humans that they are ment to stay in Arda and that death is the end and not the destination.

In an sense once elves leave Middle Earth its said that humans will progress along the lines of this world and much of what happened will be viewed as a myth, in that way I see it as Eru taking humans to himself without further interference, when the last great evil is defeated race of Man will fulfill its part in the song, they will continue to live in Land they see as their own, free from the influence of the Song before being returned to Eru.

On second hand Aman will still preserve watching decline of the world before it and many of its Valars , Maiar and Elves will fight Morgoth in final battle with humans of old joining them, but humans that are left in Middle earth will probably not take part in this battle and will potentially be with Eru to sing a new world into existence.

And despite such corruption still we got Aragorn, still got Faramir, the Gondor and Rohan Alliance despite their drama years earlier.

Ending notes to the song of human heroes and there will be many more human Kingdom's that rise and fall in the future. Numenor itself is a testament that nothing lasts forever.

Can we make it so the Elves want to stay in Middle Earth?

Opposed to race of Men elves are part of the Song and must follow its course.

Well, there's no reason for the old Elves to go out if they want. Just leave a lot of younglings to go frolic around to headpat us!

The oldest ones are most strongest and even if they leave their children they are set to fade away from Middle Earth.

Still though, I want to do it! The Elves must be saved! Saved from themselves even!
Heck maybe we could split the sky to loop a leitmotif maybe? Now the backlash of that would be interesting.:thonk:

They are being saved by fulfilling their part in the song . As I said while Humans got the gift of death they also have option not to follow the song, elves not so much.

To sum it up I believe that any change to the final outcome that could have happened was lost at the beginning when Valar made a mistake to retreat to Aman , took the Elves with them and diminished them and left the humans to influence of Morgoth, due to this song needs to take up a little change and if Valar don't want to interfere in humans affair anymore (in a sense to return to Middle Earth) and most of the Elves are willing to forsake Middle Earth then Eru will just make whole thing official and take humans out of the song (remember humans don't follow the song) , complete entire Middle Earth musical and call it a day because he has bunch of humans waiting to take singing classes in Timeless halls.

I believe that Numenor is really the last chance here because once it sinks Eru will literally divide the world in two making it one way street for the Elves.
 
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The reason Elves leave to Valinor is because every sadness done unto them is as fresh a thousand years later as it was when it happened. Valinor offers an escape from that in many ways, since many of the ills they'd experiment in Middle-Earth won't be present there.

It's ultimately a crutch, because the world will still exist, they're just be in a happier corner of it. But to someone that's hurting in darkness and knows they can seek a brighter place, that crutch can be pretty appealing.

One should also bear in mind though, that the vast majority of elves going there are Noldor who either left Valinor or are descended from ancestors that did. Most Sindar, Silvan, and Avari elves will never go. They'll just fall into obscurity as the ages of the world turn and Men in their passion shape the world while the Elves are content to just live within it.
 
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Really enjoyed this lorepost! For whatever reason I was assuming he was named "the Conqueror" for his expansionist policies, but turns out he was an experienced war leader himself and turned the ship of state towards those ends. An interesting perspective shift, and definitely have some more wariness/respect for the King of the Men of the West.
 
At the risk of repeating myself, we are a tiny bitsy backwater colony with an eccentric Sea Lord. Trying to stop the fading of the Elven presence in Middle-Earth is to change some of the key themes of the Music itself, which is way, wwaayyy, wwwwwwaaaaaaaayyyyyy above our pay grade. Its simply not gonna happen to go by what is realistic in-universe.

Warning: A bit of a ramble

More broadly, I do feel there is a bit of a trade-off in any good Politics-related quests: you can be powerful, to have the means to do a lot, and have a very sweeping effect on the world, but usually, that means you are a key part of its framework already and you are quite probably set in your way enough that what you realistically WOULD do is limited by the state of affairs when the voters take over, which is reflected by the options we have. If this quest had us play the King of Numenor odds are that a lot of the more benevolent options we went with would not have been available because they are too fringe in Numenorean culture and politics for them to be adopted as royal policies. (Even then, the Music would still weigh quite heavily on us).

On the other hand, we can also play a less powerful entity or character like we are doing in this quest. It allows the voters more freedom, as it is always possible that someone farther from the center of power would be less aligned with its politics and more detached from its cultural mainstream. Realistically, it would provide more voting options. However, once again the medal has another side: if what the PC would do isn't the limitation then what the PC CAN do is do that job, since it has fewer means at its disposal.

What can't really realistically happen though, at least in most popular fictional universes, real history, and realistic alternate histories, is for us questers to have our cake and eat it, to have both the freedom of a free agent and the power of one the masters of the established order. And you know what? I actually think this is for the best! From these limits come many of the challenges that make these games interesting, to have to play what we are.

In our case, I'd argue it means dealing with the fact that, for all our farsightedness, for all, we are ahead of our time, and we have to deal with the constraint imposed by our relative spare resources. Numenor is not gonna be redeemed because of us. We far too small to make that big of a difference when, at the end of it, it didn't come close in canon. Eru is even less likely to alter some of the key notes of the Music because we wish he will. We wouldn't be the first nor the last to mourn some of its themes. What we can do is save some of the local Middle-Men populations, reconcile them with Westernese, perhaps ensure Tharbad's survival and, of course, defeat Gundabad earlier than it might otherwise have been. If all goes well we might even get to save Var...

Very small in the grand cosmic scheme of Arda these things might be but they still have the chance to make all the difference in the world for many and they are still a lot for what we have to work with. Let us, therefore, concentrate on ensuring they come to pass :)
 
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The passing of the Age of Elves is a pretty important theme in the canon work, I sincerely doubt that changing that is on the table. As a man, the MC should probably be happy about that, even - Numenoreans have always been ambitious, and envy of the Eldar has plagued Men and will continue to do so for as long as elves remain.

Also the way elves live and view the world is pretty much incompatible with humans, since they tend to be much more willing to just live in the moment (or the past) and be in tune with nature, whereas humans are driven to industry and are always looking to the future. Like it or not, the world can't really progress to the modern age if elves are the dominant power. Now whether that's good or not is up for debate, but men will invariably aim for constant development, I think.
 
reconcile them with Westernese
To the extent this is even desirable.

To be a bit less flip, reconciliation would mean maintaining contact between the peoples of Middle-Earth and Westernesse, but that means exposing the former to the latter's inevitable and escalating depredations. Better the peoples of Middle-Earth remain uncontacted, or if already exposed, that they remain vigilant. I think they are more than wise enough to do so - even the Men of Sunlight will nurse an undying hatred for the tall men of the Tower.
 
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To the extent this is even desirable.

To be a bit less flip, reconciliation would mean maintaining contact between the peoples of Middle-Earth and Westernesse, but that means exposing the former to the latter's inevitable and escalating depredations. Better the peoples of Middle-Earth remain uncontacted, or if already exposed, that they remain vigilant. I think they are more than wise enough to do so - even the Men of Sunlight will nurse an undying hatred for the tall men of the Tower.
I respectfully disagree here, at least for the most part.

Whether it was possible for the Numenoreans to never return can be debated, and so can be whether if it would have been less bad or even worse then the Second Age was for the Middle-Men (the Elves were not doing well at all against Sauron until a massive Numorean fleet showed at the mouth of the Gwathlo and as genuinely horrible Numenorean colonization was I'd argue that domination by the physical embodiment of evil would have likely been even far worse).

What can't be argued, however, is that at this point the ship has sailed, both literally and figuratively. The Numenorean footprint on Middle-Earth is already pretty big and is likely to keep growing apace no matter what we do. The Middle-Men are gonna be contacted by Numenorean culture in some way or at some point no matter what we do.

As for eternal vigilance, as you put it, indeed it can be a good thing and it doesn't necessarily preclude reconciliation with Westernese in a ''trust but verify'' kind of way. However, if that vigilance translate itself into hostility toward the Numenoreans and/or their cultural descendants then I'd argue it is unlikely to be to the benefit to these Middle-Men cultures. Canonically Middle-Men cultures who were hostile to Numenor or the Realms in Exile until the later were well into their decline tended to suffer two faiths: either they were crushed by the Numenoreans or the Realms in Exile or they, quite understandably, turned to the one power capable to act as counterweight against them: Sauron. And their faith after that were rarely happy, at least until Aragorn took over and made peace with at least some of them.

And here I feel we are going back to one of our main theme: we are living in Arda Marred. This world, like our own, is imperfect and both good and evil, horror and kindness, coexist. Just like in our own world the perfect solution is only too rarely available so we have to contend yourself with the best one available. IMO the best path available for the Middle-Men, at least if what canon tell us and any extrapolation from the later faith of Dale, Rhovanion and Rohan are any indication, is to find some kind of modus vivendi with Westernese that preserve their autonomy as much as possible and if we can help with that, even if only on a regional level, then we would have done good work in both sense of the term.
 
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As for eternal vigilance, as you put it, indeed it can be a good thing and it doesn't necessarily preclude reconciliation with Westernese in a ''trust but verify'' kind of way. However, if that vigilance translate itself into hostility toward the Numenoreans and/or their cultural descendants then I'd argue it is unlikely to be to the benefit to these Middle-Men cultures.
Why presume cultural descendants? One thing we might be able to do is ensure nothing of Numenor survives the downfall - that Pelargir and Umbar perish as Lond Daer and Tharbad did, and that we either do the same or turn fully away from all that is Numenor as we have begun to do.
 
Why presume cultural descendants? One thing we might be able to do is ensure nothing of Numenor survives the downfall - that Pelargir and Umbar perish as Lond Daer and Tharbad did, and that we either do the same or turn fully away from all that is Numenor as we have begun to do.
Obviously, I am not @Telamon but I don't think that would be in the cards for this quest for a few reasons:

I. It would be utterly out of character for us to pursue that goal. Even if we evolve into something new we'd still have Numenor as a key part of our cultural legacy.
II. In the same way we don't have the power to tilt the balance toward the Faithful and avoid the Akalabeth we aren't important enough to make that big of a difference either.
III. Numenor and its cultural descendant are, if not as clearly key parts of the Music as the fading, still things that seem to be significant development in it, even if only in a lets make sure the cultural transmission from the Elves that happened way back isn't lost kind of way.

Moreover the most likely outcome of no Realms in Exile or equivalent is Sauron winning so it won't help the Middle-Men either... And that isn't even touching on the suffering it would mean for the inhabitants for these colonies and loosing a culture which, for all its very many clear flaws, still had positive attributes and achievements for its name.

Then there is also the fact that, with all due respect and at the risk of being too blunt, such a course of events seems pretty metagamey to me. Its normal that our RL opinions mark our choices to some extent but there is a nuance between that and basically not really try to be in character. What we signed up to play by participating in this quest is a Numenorean colony that can be safely assume to feels significant ties to both its fellow colonies and the home island. My thinking is, lets play it as such.

I once again respectfully disagree with you: I do not think this is somewhat that we can achieve or should want to achieve in this quest.
 
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tbf to the Valar intervening and actively participating in the tangled skein of destiny of Eru's Children was and is fully Not Their Job. They are not mortal and do not think in mortal ways, and brought elvenkind to Valinor in basically the heavenly host version of stumbling upon a wounded and/or abandoned baby animal.
 
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