Westernesse: A Númenórean Colony Quest

[phil03]

I have a plan I've been drafting, but I've tried to keep the draft fairly simple.

Right now I've got:



Open to suggestions for how to re-word, although I think short and sweet is probably better.

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Thinking about it, I'd add something about also reminding him of the ties between Numenoreans and Middle-Men. After all, as someone who was litterally an Edain way back then and can speak of these events and these days Elrond is a powerfull reminder of the historical links between the Middle-Men and the Numenoreans and the fact that the later lived much like the Middle-Men did once, which can only help in convincing Hazraban to truly sign on.

 

[Skippy]

Based on what people are saying, I'm seeing a lot of enthusiasm for Ironbark this turn, and a lot of people feeling we should learn more before pulling the trigger on the High King questline, so I may go with that in my plan.

Thinking about it, I'd add something about also reminding him of the ties between Numenoreans and Middle-Men. After all, as someone who was litterally an Edain way back then and can speak of these events and these days Elrond is a powerfull reminder of the historical links between the Middle-Men and the Numenoreans and the fact that the later lived much like the Middle-Men did once, which can only help in convincing Hazraban to truly sign on.

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That's a great idea.

A somewhat more elaborate draft, incorporating that:

-[X] Pay a Visit to Rivendell (Imrazôr)
--[X] Invite Hazrabân to come with us to learn about his heritage, and show him the virtues our people have nearly forgotten. Both the Middle Men and the Númenóreans descend from the Edain, and he can hear these stories from those who were there when Men stood together with Elves to fight the darkness in the North.

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[Fission Battery]

It looks like my plan with a bit about bringing the Warden with us, which I approve. I can edit it onto my plan as well.

 

[Skippy]

So, here is my draft plan.

Right now I've left the options to do with the legend and our response to the fear of death out of the plan, as my thought was that people can choose their own.

Personally I strongly favour The Men of Sunlight, because as I think @Dark Abstraction said, it's the peoples and cultures which make Middle Earth come alive for me, and more than anything, they commemorate the virtues of kindness in the story, of something good which is saved.

Somewhat tentatively, I would also go for the House of Life and the chibi-Meneltarma, as I think these both bring a lot of tangible benefits and together, can symbolise valuing a life well-lived but also overcoming the fear of death through faith in our afterlife.

[X] Plan Green Shoots of Hope
-[X] The Great Alliance (Tharbad)
---[X] Trade (Tharbad): Stone for Grain.
-[X] Pay a Visit to Rivendell (Imrazôr)
--[X] Invite Hazrabân to come with us to learn about his heritage, and show him the virtues our people have nearly forgotten. Both the Middle Men and the Númenóreans descend from the Edain, and he can hear these stories from those who were there when Men stood together with Elves to fight the darkness in the North.
--[X] On our way back, spend some time visiting the former Middle Men serfs of Tharbad, and welcoming them as free Men and allies.
-[X] Expand Pastures
-[X] Send an Envoy to the Barrow-Men
-[X] Send an Envoy to the Men of the Great Lake
-[X] Send an Envoy to the Dwarf-Friends
-[X] Research the Middle Men
-[X] Ironbark (Barazîr)

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Highlights
- I think we can all agree that getting to better know our Middle Men neighbours is a good idea, whether because we want to pursue the High King quest or simply for general prudence. Further to that, and seeing other people's reactions, I have also decided to hold off on my initial eagerness to pursue the High King Quest - let's learn a bit more first.
- Starting our alliance with Tharbad frees the Middle Men they have been dominating from bondage, a goal of ours for two turns now, and instead helps them to become partners and allies, with rights of redress. (Some of them may even agree to fight, though I expect that will take time.) It is the first step in our greater alliance to meet the thread of Gundabad, and when we are talking to Middle Men, we can point to this and show that the alliance is a reality, and Tharbad really is prepared to make concessions and change for the better. It also synergises a great deal with travelling to Rivendell and bringing Hazrabân with us this turn, I think.
- It makes sense to me that we might be able to initiate trade as a sub-action - after all, we are already building a wall, which will need stone, and engaging significantly diplomatically this turn.
- Expanding the Pastures and talking to Ironbark are both popular choices this turn, and whilst I'm not possessed by an immense sense of urgency for either, they're certainly good choices.

I am going to head to bed soon, so will not be around when voting starts, but tomorrow morning I will either repost this or edit the quotation marks out of this post.

 

[Woltaire]

also just saying Imrazôr is a valid option for high king after the dude in the update said this

Braelor breaks in. "For him, perhaps, but never for you."

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also don't want to pursue grand alliance yet in case rivendell trip does not go well

 

[rokafella]

I think we are gonna need to properly codify what type of plan we want to win and therefore do for the providing turn. Because we all want to do something with death and Barazir, but the rest could do with some work on what we need and definitely on what we want.

 

[Zimmerwald1915]

also just saying Imrazôr is a valid option for high king after the dude in the update said this

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Two very valid objections to this idea: the wraiths of Bree-Hill will not consent to it willingly, and while they may be overmastered by one of the Wise, Tar-Calmacil would be after Imrazor's head for such a stunt.

 

[Woltaire]

@Telamon can we vote separately on death and legend choice?

Two very valid objections to this idea: the wraiths of Bree-Hill will not consent to it willingly, and while they may be overmastered by one of the Wise, Tar-Calmacil would be after Imrazor's head for such a stunt.

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Nah it would def be harder but we could def have them consent to it willingly and yah the king would be a problem but I think we could still pull it off(he might not even hear of it for a while to be honest)

 

[Fission Battery]

So, here is my draft plan.

Right now I've left the options to do with the legend and our response to the fear of death out of the plan, as my thought was that people can choose their own.

Personally I strongly favour The Men of Sunlight, because as I think @Dark Abstraction said, it's the peoples and cultures which make Middle Earth come alive for me, and more than anything, they commemorate the virtues of kindness in the story, of something good which is saved.

Somewhat tentatively, I would also go for the House of Life and the chibi-Meneltarma, as I think these both bring a lot of tangible benefits and together, can symbolise valuing a life well-lived but also overcoming the fear of death through faith in our afterlife.



Highlights
- I think we can all agree that getting to better know our Middle Men neighbours is a good idea, whether because we want to pursue the High King quest or simply for general prudence. Further to that, and seeing other people's reactions, I have also decided to hold off on my initial eagerness to pursue the High King Quest - let's learn a bit more first.
- Starting our alliance with Tharbad frees the Middle Men they have been dominating from bondage, a goal of ours for two turns now, and instead helps them to become partners and allies, with rights of redress. (Some of them may even agree to fight, though I expect that will take time.) It is the first step in our greater alliance to meet the thread of Gundabad, and when we are talking to Middle Men, we can point to this and show that the alliance is a reality, and Tharbad really is prepared to make concessions and change for the better. It also synergises a great deal with travelling to Rivendell and bringing Hazrabân with us this turn, I think.
- It makes sense to me that we might be able to initiate trade as a sub-action - after all, we are already building a wall, which will need stone, and engaging significantly diplomatically this turn.
- Expanding the Pastures and talking to Ironbark are both popular choices this turn, and whilst I'm not possessed by an immense sense of urgency for either, they're certainly good choices.

I am going to head to bed soon, so will not be around when voting starts, but tomorrow morning I will either repost this or edit the quotation marks out of this post.

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I'm iffy on the Great Alliance because it specifically requires repairing Tharbad's walls and stops building projects for one turn, meaning our Shaping Hall and Shipyard gets delayed another turn. I can live with it if it means he stops taking tribute from the locals though. It would also be a gesture of good will necessary to get him on board with meeting Elrond. Hm, it's near identical to my plan, sans the Expand Militia option, and makes sense.

You know what, it's solid. I can vote for it instead of my own plan. We work on our alliance on both fronts.

 

[ChiefTurtle117]

So, here is my draft plan.

Right now I've left the options to do with the legend and our response to the fear of death out of the plan, as my thought was that people can choose their own.

Personally I strongly favour The Men of Sunlight, because as I think @Dark Abstraction said, it's the peoples and cultures which make Middle Earth come alive for me, and more than anything, they commemorate the virtues of kindness in the story, of something good which is saved.

Somewhat tentatively, I would also go for the House of Life and the chibi-Meneltarma, as I think these both bring a lot of tangible benefits and together, can symbolise valuing a life well-lived but also overcoming the fear of death through faith in our afterlife.



Highlights
- I think we can all agree that getting to better know our Middle Men neighbours is a good idea, whether because we want to pursue the High King quest or simply for general prudence. Further to that, and seeing other people's reactions, I have also decided to hold off on my initial eagerness to pursue the High King Quest - let's learn a bit more first.
- Starting our alliance with Tharbad frees the Middle Men they have been dominating from bondage, a goal of ours for two turns now, and instead helps them to become partners and allies, with rights of redress. (Some of them may even agree to fight, though I expect that will take time.) It is the first step in our greater alliance to meet the thread of Gundabad, and when we are talking to Middle Men, we can point to this and show that the alliance is a reality, and Tharbad really is prepared to make concessions and change for the better. It also synergises a great deal with travelling to Rivendell and bringing Hazrabân with us this turn, I think.
- It makes sense to me that we might be able to initiate trade as a sub-action - after all, we are already building a wall, which will need stone, and engaging significantly diplomatically this turn.
- Expanding the Pastures and talking to Ironbark are both popular choices this turn, and whilst I'm not possessed by an immense sense of urgency for either, they're certainly good choices.

I am going to head to bed soon, so will not be around when voting starts, but tomorrow morning I will either repost this or edit the quotation marks out of this post.

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So, i second questioning doing the Great Alliance now also.

The Shapers are coming this turn, so we would want to get our in process construction complete or as far as possible.

On this matter, you do two things: first, you send a messenger to the Shapers in Numenor, summoning their envoy forth. If they are pleased with your progress thus far, they may foist great rewards upon you, or even aid you in recruiting more colonists. (The envoy will arrive in approximately two turns. Be ready.)

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Also, 2 Speakers want us to expand the Militia this turn. Ignoring them and their constituents will not be wise I feel

[] Expand the Militia: Enlist more volunteers to the defense of the city, should you think it necessary. A noticable population of your people support doing this -- 2 Speakers are behind it.​

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[Woltaire]

I want to delay the alliance longer one so we can use it as leverage so he comes and the fact that the shapers are coming to judge are progress and we don't have time to send them all way the north and delay all our building projects

 

[Fission Battery]

I want to delay the alliance longer one so we can use it as leverage so he comes and the fact that the shapers are coming to judge are progress and we don't have time to send them all way the north and delay all our building projects

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That's also true. I will probably still push for my plan since we do want a militia.

 

[Skippy]

Personally, I feel that while we do want to improve our militia, a strong alliance with Tharbad, who are between us and Gundabad and have hundreds of professional soldiers, probably adds more to our net security. Giving them a strengthened wall means there is a strongly held fortress between us and our biggest enemy, and the alliance means we can begin adding a network of fortresses and watchtowers all along the Greyflood - a formidable defensive installation.

All that being said, I would be entirely in favour of expanding the militia next turn, but I would like to get something cemented with Tharbad sooner rather than later - because then we can show it to the Middle Men, and make them see that our proposals are real, not just grand designs. Two speakers to want us to expand the militia, but that is two out of a total of seven, so I do not feel it is an urgent clamour just yet.

(I did not go to bed when I thought I would. Mistakes were made.)

 

[Anann]

Admiral Skippy's plan seems decent to me - the only thing that I'd be worried about is Barazir being our envoy to Ironbark. For all his manifold qualities, Barazir doesn't necessarily strike me as the diplomatic type. Ironbark already has a chip on his shoulder (a wood chip, hardy har har) with Numenoreans, and it was only Imrazor's command of the Elven tongue that prevented outright hostilities when we first met him. Still, the less-than-diplomatic first contact with the Gate Guard of Khazad-Dum didn't seem to blow up in our faces too much, so it's a minor quibble. I'll still post my plan when voting opens, for the sake of variety, but I'll happily back Admiral Skippy's if that's the way the wind is blowing.

 

[Woltaire]

but it not just about the middle men and tharbad it also about showing the shapers who are coming to our colony that we have done stuff. We are a worthwhile investment who have taken steps to defend our colony too. They aren't going to tharbad and prob won't even care that much about it either(it will be empty words to them anyway)

 

[Telamon]

also just saying Imrazôr is a valid option for high king after the dude in the update said this

also don't want to pursue grand alliance yet in case rivendell trip does not go well

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That was not an indication from Braelor that Imrazôr could be the High King, it was an indication that the tributaries of the Tower would never fight and die for the Tyrant or his causes — whereas Imrazôr, being a relatively unknown factor, might win their friendship.

Imrazôr attempting to claim the kingship of the Gwaithurim would be not unlike the governor of South Africa in 1888 attempting to claim the Kingship of the Zulu.

 

[Woltaire]

That was not an indication from Braelor that Imrazôr could be the High King, it was an indication that the tributaries of the Tower would never fight and die for the Tyrant or his causes — whereas Imrazôr, being a relatively unknown factor, might win their friendship.

Imrazôr attempting to claim the kingship of the Gwaithurim would be not unlike the governor of South Africa in 1888 attempting to claim the Kingship of the Zulu.

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so your telling me there a chance

yah in that case it prob(def) not happening

edit: wait that really specific did that actually happen?

 

[ctulhuslp]

I am not sure I like the idea of taking the lord of Tharbad to Rivendell.
Invitation was specifically to Imrazor.

Then again, scouts were welcomed, so the policy is of open doors. Still.

 

[Fezzes]

Glad to see people agreeing that Barazir could work for talking to Ironbark. He's clearly not haughty or imperious, given it's heavily implied he knifed five Numenoreans for the sake of a Middle Men child, and just given his overall existence and stature. I think he could do it. It also implicitly shows that it's not just Imrazor trying to speak and make promises for his people. There are others who can back us up.

I don't approve of any plan that packages in the legend and death reaction votes. As Skippy said, it's kind of personal and people are liable to think their own way about them. For instance, I'm getting a bit shakier in my conviction on Doom, Unerring. Especially with Telamon mentioning that both Umbar and Pelargir have the Houses. Certainly I imagine it'll hamstring our immigration. I doubt many Numenoreans will be keen to head to a place that explicitly rejects those measures. I'll still vote for it, but you get what I mean. It's a swingy thing that doesn't really connect to the practical meat of a plan.

 

[rokafella]

Understandable, but us choosing for doom Unerring doesn't we we can't do them, telamon also said that we could do them after this, it just won't be as spectacular as a result. That I think comes with use getting more power later on, rather than getting altheas Now, instead of later.

 

[Fission Battery]

Admiral Skippy's plan seems decent to me - the only thing that I'd be worried about is Barazir being our envoy to Ironbark. For all his manifold qualities, Barazir doesn't necessarily strike me as the diplomatic type. Ironbark already has a chip on his shoulder (a wood chip, hardy har har) with Numenoreans, and it was only Imrazor's command of the Elven tongue that prevented outright hostilities when we first met him. Still, the less-than-diplomatic first contact with the Gate Guard of Khazad-Dum didn't seem to blow up in our faces too much, so it's a minor quibble. I'll still post my plan when voting opens, for the sake of variety, but I'll happily back Admiral Skippy's if that's the way the wind is blowing.

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Barazir was almost literally speaking to the trees to track the child. I think he can be diplomatic enough.

I don't approve of any plan that packages in the legend and death reaction votes. As Skippy said, it's kind of personal and people are liable to think their own way about them. For instance, I'm getting a bit shakier in my conviction on Doom, Unerring. Especially with Telamon mentioning that both Umbar and Pelargir have the Houses. Certainly I imagine it'll hamstring our immigration. I doubt many Numenoreans will be keen to head to a place that explicitly rejects those measures. I'll still vote for it, but you get what I mean. It's a swingy thing that doesn't really connect to the practical meat of a plan.

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Honestly, I only added the Legend and Death options to my plan because others were too and thought it was necessary.

 

[Arhin]

I like plan of Admiral Skippy.

One more argument about contacting Ironbark this turn.

You have space left for FOUR projects before the city must be expanded.

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We used two for Shaping Hall and Shipyard. Pasture takes the third, and House of Life with temple also require space, I guess. We'll need to expand, but:

Push them back further yet, and gain valuable wood for sale and land on which to settle. There is another steward. He watches with bright eyes.

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Although I do not know what can we propose to Ironbark in exchange.

Oh. Industrialization is a hard thing.

@Telamon , do we have a right to see rolls in this chapter?

 

[ja.b.n.]

More than cool magic weapons, or monuments, it is the people of the Legendarium that matter. It's Turin, not Anglachel. It's Gandalf, not Glamdring. And it would be the Men-of-Sunlight. These are the kind of legacies that made honor and wonder synonymous with the men of the Edain, and gave birth to the glory of the men of Numenor in the first place.

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I don't have much other imput, but I just wanted to say that you put this really beautifully, and it really resonated with me. thank you.

@Telamon
I think you're an awesome writer, the people and their differing views feel real, the emotions feel tangible, and the description of the quest to the north felt like it was an old myth being told and retold for many generations, by an story-teller sharing the foundational myths of their people. Thank you

 

[Yun]

I am not sure I like the idea of taking the lord of Tharbad to Rivendell.
Invitation was specifically to Imrazor.

Then again, scouts were welcomed, so the policy is of open doors. Still.

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While it can potentially start on the wrong foot if he brings a large armed escort I think it can do the man a lot of good. Because he is metaphorically trapped inside his tower by his self imposed duties as a soldier as a core part of his identity, and fear of the dangers outside his walls.

Understandable, but us choosing for doom Unerring doesn't we we can't do them, telamon also said that we could do them after this, it just won't be as spectacular as a result. That I think comes with use getting more power later on, rather than getting altheas Now, instead of later.

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I think one of the core differences is less the quality of healing, and rather the culture of the settlement will have already been influenced by the original decision. Because the Numenoreans are a proud people and if they decide to take a page from the Men of twilight, or their forefathers the Edain in how to face death… simply adding a House of Life won't change things.

 

[Arhin]

Thought about "Envoy to the Hillmen" – I think it should be a hero (Inzilbeth, Barazîr or Imrazôr). Otherwise chance of failure will be too high. That's why it's better to delay on the next turn.