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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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ReImagined said:
Bringing dwarven runesmiths with the dwarven expedition to the lost dwarf-hold just makes a lot more sense than either of the other two.
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It only makes sense if Karak Dum, prime real estate, is abandoned for some bizarre reason.

Otherwise, we're much better off getting Wolf to relay questions to Kragg. Give Wolf an item of MMAP to make projections of what Mathilde sees, and we're sorted for most plausible scenarios.
 
picklepikkl said:
I don't disagree with anything you said, I just think Glau is getting a lot of unfair criticism. She didn't say "I don't want to ever do this thing," she said "trying to sell it by talking about how OP it will make us is the wrong way to sell me." Which is legit! Personally, I really do want to take it next turn before we go on the expedition, because I want to poke more at the more unique sides of Mathilde's personal development now that we've jacked all her numbers into the stratosphere: her Arcane Marks, her uniquely strong Windsight, and Branulhune (a weapon only she owns), and because I do think it would be a really neat trick if we can pull it off. Not an I Win button, but a neat trick.
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Speaking of her fine arsenal, there is one marksdwarf pistol, which have not been used yet..
 
Alratan said:
It only makes sense if Karak Dum, prime real estate, is abandoned for some bizarre reason.

Otherwise, we're much better off getting Wolf to relay questions to Kragg. Give Wolf an item of MMAP to make projections of what Mathilde sees, and we're sorted for most plausible scenarios.
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That's two levels of translation, from Mathilde's windsight to Kragg's Runelord senses back into zhuf-format. Having the runesmith on hand to observe and handle any of that stuff directly is probably going to work out better than any indirect consultation.
 
ReImagined said:
That's two levels of translation, from Mathilde's windsight to Kragg's Runelord senses back into zhuf-format. Having the runesmith on hand to observe and handle any of that stuff directly is probably going to work out better than any indirect consultation.
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Unless the Karak is abandoned, which seems exceptionally unlikely, the runesmith will eitjer be redundant or not getting anywhere near anything inside the place so will have to rely on Mathilde's second hand descriptions anyway.
HavocKeeper said:
That doesn't work over long distances.
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Doesn't it? I must have missed that ruling.
 
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Mathilde could well die this coming turn during the steppe scouting mission.

(rolls dice) Encounter
(rolls dice) It's a bad encounter.
(rolls dice) Low numbers on dealing with it.
(rolls dice) Couple of last chance miracles... fail.

Dead.
 
Alratan said:
Unless the Karak is abandoned, which seems exceptionally unlikely, the runesmith will eitjer be redundant or not getting anywhere near anything inside the place so will have to rely on Mathilde's second hand descriptions anyway.
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That doesn't seem right. The Expedition is going to either reestablish contact, or evacuate survivors/relics. Doing any of these requires going inside. Sure, Mathilde is the forward scout, but do you think the Dwarfs are going to be satisfied with just whatever she can personally carry out, or immediately leave once Mathy encounters an obstacle she can't overcome alone?
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Remember when we first saw Mathilde travel in pitch darkness using nothing but her Magesight? IIRC it was when we scouted all those snotlings on the way to K8P (link), and while she was prefectly able to see there was a time delay to her perception. It's why @BoneyM vetoed galloping through the Underway at full speed on a Shadowhorse : she'd smash her head into a stalactite before it registered to her magesight. She hasn't shown significant range imitations on her magesight before (she's used it from one side of the valley to the other during the battles against orcs), which suggests that the problem really is a time delay. Maybe this is because the Winds don't perfectly mirror reality, maybe it's because she needs time to interpret what she sees, etc.

I predict that seeing through Pall of Darkness will have similar issues : sure she can see through it, but not well enough to be very confident while fighting. And of course it's even more of a problem for her opponents who have to wave their swords around at random hoping to hit her - but she can no longer properly block if she can't see their weapon's movements in time.
So it's a good solution, but it won't always be a perfect auto-include in every single combat situation.
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Yep, it is not 'win everything' button, but it is pretty incredibly advantage in terms of keeping Mathilde alive when things go wrong during non-mass-combat situations. I.e.:
- trapped in room with horde of enraged Orcs when scouting => pall of darkness to get breathing room
- assasination on bloodthirster turned sour => pall of darkness to give it pause
- chaos dwarves watchpost gunning down expedition scouts with muskets => pall of darkness on watchpost to stop them right now
- Mathilde is on the floor, heavily wounded and horde of goblins keeps stabbing her with rusty knives - Seed of Regrowth is working but it's locking her legs keeping her from moving => pall of darkness to get few seconds of breathing room to escape

It is relatively easy spell (compared to what Mathilde works on now), which can be cast quickly. It makes it a good panic button in situations where Mathilde's life is on a line against superior or more numerous opponents. It can mean difference between life or death! After all no matter how strong or tough You are, You tend to pause at least for a second or two when everything turns pitch dark suddenly!

Further, aside of keeping Mathilde alive, it is self-improvement action aimed at improving Magesight. Current benefits are one thing. Training which can help to get next tier of magesight is invaluable.


Edit: spell is also boosted by Staff of Mistery, which makes it "Relatively Simple" and enhaces it further. Magic '3' to cast reliably (a good choice to cast when wounded or otherwise preocupied by enemies)
 
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I could easily imagine a situation in which Mathy comes from scouting inside Karag Dum and reports something like:
- "Chamber A is sealed with a runic door, no idea how to get inside"
- "Chamber B is besieged by Choas forces, too many for me to take down alone, possible survivors inside"
- "Chamber C is protected by a whole lotta runic traps, I evaded one and decided to quit while I was ahead, don't know how to bypass them"
- "Chamber D is an armory, containing several suits of gromril armor, and they are too heavy for me to carry out, stealthily at any rate"
- "Chamber E has more survivors, but I didn't manage to convince them that I'm not a Choas Sorceress"
- "Chamber F has writings in Arcane Khazalid, which I can't read"
- "Chamber K has friendly survivors, but while I could certainly sneak out, I can't sneak them out. Oh, and they have a runemaster among them who wants to do something important, and he's not telling me what because guild secrets"

A runesmith would be useful for at least a few of these, and dwarf intervention would be required in all of them, and they will certainly want to intervene, so the idea of a runesmith not even going inside seems ill-founded. They'd only not go in if the area is so infested with enemies that going inside means certain death.
 
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So little bit pick @BoneyM

678 Stirland gold crowns, 114 Reikland gold crowns

It's there a reason you are splitting imperial coin up like this. (Like, say.... Reikland Coin is more trusted to keep value in places like the birder princes or Kislev or hell, Lothern.)

Just wondering as it dames like something that would make life easier for you if it was just 'imperial coin'.
 
Is the vote called? Otherwise would somebody mind throwing me the planes with a runedude init? :)

Edit: Name voting for somebody arguing for it instead.

[X] Tapkomet
 
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HavocKeeper said:
That doesn't work over long distances.
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Doesn't it? I must have missed that tuling
tapkomet said:
I could easily imagine a situation in which Mathy comes from scouting inside Karag Dum and reports something like:
- "Chamber A is sealed with a runic door, no idea how to get inside"
- "Chamber B is besieged by Choas forces, too many for me to take down alone, possible survivors inside"
- "Chamber C is protected by a whole lotta runic traps, I evaded one and decided to quit while I was ahead, don't know how to bypass them"
- "Chamber D is an armory, containing several suits of gromril armor, and they are too heavy for me to carry out, stealthily at any rate"
- "Chamber E has more survivors, but I didn't manage to convince them that I'm not a Choas Sorceress"
- "Chamber F has writings in Arcane Khazalid, which I can't read"
- "Chamber K has friendly survivors, but while I could certainly sneak out, I can't sneak them out. Oh, and they have a runemaster among them who wants to do something important, and he's not telling me what because guild secrets"

A runesmith would be useful for at least a few of these, and dwarf intervention would be required in all of them, and they will certainly want to intervene, so the idea of a runesmith not even going inside seems ill-founded. They'd only not go in if the area is so infested with enemies that going inside means certain death.
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In every single one of those scenarios, the runesmith won't be able to get in to talk to see the chamber unless there are miraculously no chaos forces at Karak Dum. All Mathilde will be able to do is sneak in and will then need to sneak back out, describe what she's seen to the runesmith, and sneak back in to use what the runesmith said. That's vastly less useful than using Wolf as a relay to get a consultation with Kragg in real time. For example, if there are layers of runes, Mathilde would need to sneak back in and out multiple times for multiple consultations.

We cannot take enough forces to retake the Karak if it's held by Chaos forces. Runesmiths cannot turn invisible and bypass and non-magical defences. Mathilde can. A runesmith will only be going inside the Karak if the place is abandoned, or if it's still held by the dwarves. The first seems vanishingly unlikely given how valuable the real estate is, and the second means we don't actually need the runesmith.

In your scenarios, B, D, E, are irrelevant to runesmiths anyway, on top of that. Either any dwarf would do, or any other person.

If the place is held by the enemy, only Mathilde is going in. We may have enough forces to open up an evacuation pathway for survivors, but we're not going to be retaking the Karak. All a runesmith will be useful for is a small amount more dispelling support, unless the place is miraculously empty.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
So little bit pick @BoneyM

678 Stirland gold crowns, 114 Reikland gold crowns

It's there a reason you are splitting imperial coin up like this. (Like, say.... Reikland Coin is more trusted to keep value in places like the birder princes or Kislev or hell, Lothern.)

Just wondering as it dames like something that would make life easier for you if it was just 'imperial coin'.
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It's because Stirland mints their own coinage, which looks different from the Reikland Gold Crown, much like with Talabecland and Middenland. They always feature the relief of the queen who ruled the pre-Imperial tribe that settled in Stirland and fought with Sigmar at Black Fire Pass.
 
HavocKeeper said:
Could have sworn Boney said something about the fidelity of the information over the bond went down with large distances. Can't seem to find it, so I guess I was mistaken. Sorry.
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For what it's worth, I think I remember something similar, but couldn't turn it up in a few searches either.
Wolf and Kragg don't share a language anyway, so there'd be at least another translation layer to navigate. (Even assuming we'd not recruited all the Ducklings to hell.)
 
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Alratan said:
Doesn't it? I must have missed that tuling


In every single one of those scenarios, the runesmith won't be able to get in to talk to see the chamber unless there are miraculously no chaos forces at Karak Dum. All Mathilde will be able to do is sneak in and will then need to sneak back out, describe what she's seen to the runesmith, and sneak back in to use what the runesmith said. That's vastly less useful than using Wolf as a relay to get a consultation with Kragg in real time. For example, if there are layers of runes, Mathilde would need to sneak back in and out multiple times for multiple consultations.

We cannot take enough forces to retake the Karak if it's held by Chaos forces. Runesmiths cannot turn invisible and bypass and non-magical defences.
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No, but 50 Slayers can carve a path to the eventual survivors or sealed artifact-storages, which we can then loot/rescue with Runesmith help and get away with our escape-vehicles before enough Chaos forces have gathered to stop us.

Good Death for the Slayers, good loot for the expedition.
 
Alratan said:
Doesn't it? I must have missed that tuling


In every single one of those scenarios, the runesmith won't be able to get in to talk to see the chamber unless there are miraculously no chaos forces at Karak Dum. All Mathilde will be able to do is sneak in and will then need to sneak back out, describe what she's seen to the runesmith, and sneak back in to use what the runesmith said. That's vastly less useful than using Wolf as a relay to get a consultation with Kragg in real time. For example, if there are layers of runes, Mathilde would need to sneak back in and out multiple times for multiple consultations.

We cannot take enough forces to retake the Karak if it's held by Chaos forces. Runesmiths cannot turn invisible and bypass and non-magical defences.
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A retaking is certainly out of the question, but anything else depends on how many enemy forces there are, where, and how concentrated, a lightning raid is surely not out of the question. A steam wagon caravan out of Karaz Ankor is the last thing they are going to be expecting (unless they are Tzeenchites). The Dwarfs go in, clear out immediate enemies, grab the stuff, open whatever they want to open, and run back. Slayers and Asarnil hold them off meanwhile (Slayers because they want to die, Asarnil because he can retreat really fast). And, like, yes, it's going to be insanely risky, but they are Dwarfs, it's not going to stop them once they've come this far. The good thing is that the enemies will certainly not be carrying radios, so their communications are going to be terrible, especially if Mathilde eliminates runners, followed by Mathilde and Asarnil then chasing down anyone trying to flee after any fight.
 
Artemis1992 said:
No, but 50 Slayers can carve a path to the eventual survivors or sealed artifact-storages, which we can then loot/rescue with Runesmith help and get away with our escape-vehicles before enough Chaos forces have gathered to stop us.

Good Death for the Slayers, good loot for the expedition.
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If there are survivors, they can open the treasuries. Or the member of Karak Dum royalty we have along has. In that scenario we don't need a runesmith along with us.

Also, given the falling out between the Runemasters and the rest of the guild, what makes you think that the Runemasters would have sealed their treasuries with runes a junior runesmith could open?
 
tapkomet said:
A retaking is certainly out of the question, but anything else depends on how many enemy forces there are, where, and how concentrated, a lightning raid is surely not out of the question. A steam wagon caravan out of Karaz Ankor is the last thing they are going to be expecting (unless they are Tzeenchites). The Dwarfs go in, clear out immediate enemies, grab the stuff, open whatever they want to open, and run back. Slayers and Asarnil hold them off meanwhile (Slayers because they want to die, Asarnil because he can retreat really fast). And, like, yes, it's going to be insanely risky, but they are Dwarfs, it's not going to stop them once they've come this far. The good thing is that the enemies will certainly not be carrying radios, so their communications are going to be terrible, especially if Mathilde eliminates runners, followed by Mathilde and Asarnil then chasing down anyone trying to flee after any fight.
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Not only Tzeentchites can see the future. All of them save for Khornates can.

Also, they may not be expecting a dwarven raid, but this is deep in the the Chaos Wastes, a place of continual war. They'll be on perpetual high alert for raids from other Chaos Warrior or Daemon Warbands, who can represent just as much or even greater concentrations of force than the expedition.

If the place is held by the forces of Chaos, Mathilde can sneak in and see what she can retrieve, but a raid is probably such an incredibly bad idea that if the leadership demands it we should organise a coup and go home.

Assaulting a defended dwarf Karak with such an inferior force would be insane. We can't pull off what we did at K8P because we didn't bring an army with us.
 
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Sir_Travelsalot said:
It's because Stirland mints their own coinage, which looks different from the Reikland Gold Crown, much like with Talabecland and Middenland. They always feature the relief of the queen who ruled the pre-Imperial tribe that settled in Stirland and fought with Sigmar at Black Fire Pass.
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I'm aware of that, I'm just wondering if there is a gameplay reason to keep track.
 
Alratan said:
Also, given the falling out between the Runemasters and the rest of the guild, what makes you think that the Runemasters would have sealed their treasuries with runes a junior runesmith could open?
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Honestly, because they are still dwarves.
If they wanted something sealed up so tightly that it stays shut for an indeterminable time of occupation, they would have used the same runes to do it that every Runesmith since the first discoverer (propably Thungi) used.

They still come from the same tradition as all other Runesmiths, with relativly little drift, so there is no reason to assume they would have developed new Runes for a task if they already knew tried and tested ones.
 
Alratan said:
If there are survivors, they can open the treasuries. Or the member of Karak Dum royalty we have along has. In that scenario we don't need a runesmith along with us.

Also, given the falling out between the Runemasters and the rest of the guild, what makes you think that the Runemasters would have sealed their treasuries with runes a junior runesmith could open?
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Belegar was completely ignorant about his crown being related to waystones, and I'm pretty sure Kragg was the one who unsealed the vaults and various locations in K8P. It seems to me that the task falls to runesmiths, not royalty. If there are survivors, the possibility exists that one of them is a runesmith who can help, but it's not a certainty. It's not a certainty that the runesmith we bring along can help with a runemaster's seals, but it's the best shot we have.
 
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