Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I mean, Elspeth von Draken rides around on a dragon, and yet she has not yet won at everything forever, and in fact I strongly suspect a quest from her point of view would be fascinating reading. For that matter, even if we don't gain a full rider bond, Cython is still going to be around K8P and generally well disposed towards us, and yet I don't think Boney will lack for interesting stories to tell. So the "dragon means we won't get fun stories" argument falls pretty flat for me.
 
Sometimes I do think that allowing for anti-votes would give a more indicative picture of what the thread wants. But I also believe that it would lead to much more toxic discussions, which is why I never propose it.
I imagine he'd have to bring in an exterior voting system to do this, as I don't think SV has the capability for it. But something Boney might consider is doing a survey to see how the thread feels about each candidate on a scale from "Thanks I hate it" to "OMG teh ultimate waifu!" for each candidate, and just not share the results with the thread/ ban discussion of said survey. This would give Boney a good feel for how the thread really feels, without inviting the Toxicty of holding "Anti-Votes."
 
Cython's strong showing has mostly been in spite of his supporters in the thread recently, rather than because of them
I guess I have some work to do, then.

I think that Mathilde - and the thread - is happier with complicated, mysterious, insightful people. Kragg and Belegar are some obvious examples. I believe that Panoramia also falls into this category; like I've said, she's the only one who was able to ask Mathilde a question during the earlier not-date, and consistently surprises Mathilde and acknowledges her jokes. I believe that Cython will fall into this category as well. It's a complex being with a ton of history, its personality is literally unique, and it's demonstrated intense curiosity whenever something caught its interest. Cython's interests in books and the foundations of religious philosophy align well with Mathilde's hobbies and even with the thread's favorite projects. Can you imagine a better research partner for Theurgy research than an Emperor Dragon that wants to learn more about the gods? I think that Mathilde could form a meaningful friendship with Cython based on mutual understanding and interests, which I feel is more than I can say about many of the other romantic prospects. I think that Mathilde would enjoy hanging out with Cython and that we would too. These are some of the reasons I'm voting for Cython as a romantic interest.

Also, dragon-related shenanigans. Can you imagine the look on Belegar's face when we announce that we're dating Cython? Can you imagine the look on Kragg's face? How do you think Algard or Empress Heidi will respond when they learn that Mathilde, cheesy showwoman and blessed disciple of Ranald, ended up in a relationship with, of all things, an eldritch being made of pure Hysh? Mathilde would love it. Look at how much fun she has messing with people with Wolf and her hat and her shadow and her MAP. Then imagine how much fun she'd have introducing people to her SO the emperor ice dragon.
 
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I don't want to belittle your concerns, but again, the quest remains interesting regardless of the focus, and I very much doubt that the quest will change in a more significant way from our romance choice than from leaving the empire.
A relationship depends on 2 people, and implying the dragon will have control over us simply for being a dragon assumes he posseses qualities he has not demonstrated, this comes across as baseless fear mongering.
While I am a bit worried about the dragon trying to exert control over us, I don't think that's my main concern here. After all BoneyM is strong on player agency and SV is not a voterbase that's okay with being forcefully pushed around by NPCs.
My worry is that Cython will offer help for physical tasks involving violence on a regular basis and that we will accept and even come to rely on it because, well, why the hell wouldn't we. And if our draconic lover doesn't feel like doing trivial things (like burning a Waaagh or two or coming along on a diplomatic trip) to make their girlfriend really happy then what kind of relationship is that?
So I'd rather not touch the issue at all.
 
This would give Boney a good feel for how the thread really feels, without inviting the Toxicty of holding "Anti-Votes."
Boney reads the thread itself in addition to the votes, and the thread discussion is not shy about making its opinions known on controversial votes. It has to actively be guided away from doing so at times, in fact. I guess numbers for the lurkers would be useful too, though.
 
Apologies, I'd honestly remembered that quote pretty much to the letter except for the 'not' in that sentence.

It's probably a strong indication of how tiring the vote has been that this is the first time I can actually remember seeing you express that you hope a particular vote loses, rather than that your chosen vote wins. Cython's strong showing has mostly been in spite of his supporters in the thread recently, rather than because of them, and I count myself in that.
All good. I also have definitely misremembered things in ways that completely invert the meaning before.

I have tried not to make a point of it, because I believe strongly in arguing for the stuff you're in favor of rather than against the stuff you aren't, but yeah, romancing the dragon is a plot I actively do not want. All the romance options I'm in active favor of have fallen by the wayside, so what's left are "stuff I'm fine with" and "stuff I'd really prefer not to." At the same time, I don't want to talk up the non-romantic social options I do in fact want to do, because that would stress out the pro-dragon voters (since they're inherently in competition) and I would like a positive thread environment. So mostly I'm just in the position of hoping the vote ends soon one way or another, and filling the time talking about things other than this vote (like future turn plans).
 
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I believe that arguing that we should get what people hate less instead of what people like more is an entirely wrong way to go about things when deciding about something we are supposed to enjoy, that's how you end up with a party full of Hawaiian pizza.
 
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A lot of unrecountable one-sided flirting and obliviousness on the other end is my guess.
Yeah... Not appealing enough to make me reconsider.
I mean, Elspeth von Draken rides around on a dragon, and yet she has not yet won at everything forever, and in fact I strongly suspect a quest from her point of view would be fascinating reading. For that matter, even if we don't gain a full rider bond, Cython is still going to be around K8P and generally well disposed towards us, and yet I don't think Boney will lack for interesting stories to tell. So the "dragon means we won't get fun stories" argument falls pretty flat for me.
I never claimed it would lead to us not getting fun stories. We could all go full Omegahugger and I still would expect this to remain my favorite quest on the internet. But if I am to vote on something that I expect to have a potentially large impact on the direction of this quest, then this is how I vote because this is where my preferences lie.
 
Then there's the potential loss of agency that comes with a Dragon caring about the amount of risk their beloved takes. Or a more one-sided relationship with a dragon that indulges the little mortal taking precedence over the relationships I prefer to see. Or us having to explain ourselves to our more mortal love interests and losing our chance with them over this.
It would mean that Cython either doesn't care much about Mathilde's problems or that he doesn't understand her.
I don't really think this is a fair take. I'm not going to argue that you should vote for Cython (you said you weren't into his personality, which is fine and dandy regardless of my own opinion), but there seems to a couple implicit assumptions hidden in here that should be questioned.

What it really comes down to is the blanket assumption that there will never be a set of circumstances where Mathilde and Cython can discuss things like reasonable adults or come to an equitable compromise. The scenarios you posit are all all or nothing affairs - if Cython does anything Mathilde wants it must be because Cython is merely choosing to indulge Mathilde, but any situation where Cython does not leap to do the Mathilde wants to do it must be because Cython doesn't care about or understand Mathilde. Any situation where Cython actually cares about Mathilde and acts on that would negatively impact Mathilde's agency, with the implication that that this cannot be tolerated whatsoever.

You depict an incredibly toxic relationship where one or the other parties involved are not actually characters but plot devices for the utility of the other, and have provided no justification whatsoever for assuming this to be the case beyond baselessly asserting that the quest simply can't handle characters with high degrees of personal power.

Cython is an actual character with all the thoughts and feelings of any other character - please do not do everybody the disservice of treating him (or anyone he interacts with) as less than that.
 
Boney reads the thread itself in addition to the votes, and the thread discussion is not shy about making its opinions known on controversial votes. It has to actively be guided away from doing so at times, in fact. I guess numbers for the lurkers would be useful too, though.
I think there are plenty of people as well, who in an attempt to keep civil, do stay quiet about any negative feelings they may have for certain candidates.

Like personally while I have spoken out, despite everything I still never made clear just how much I dislike some of the candidates. Nor will I as that would be toxic. But an anonymous survey only visible to Boney on the other hand, I would express my full opinions there.

Also yeah, Lurkers.
 
[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia
[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.
[X] Eike Hochschild, to get to know your future business partner.
[X] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.

I think there are plenty of people as well, who in an attempt to keep civil, do stay quiet about any negative feelings they may have for certain candidates.

Like personally while I have spoken out, despite everything I still never made clear just how much I dislike some of the candidates. Nor will I as that would be toxic.


One of those people here. I really dislike Johan romance for example, and romance in general, but since it is an entirely subjective thing I feel no need to go on a spiel how he's the worst ever or something. In the end this is a matter of preference and I believe that Mathilde can make something work with any of the candidates or Boney would have not allowed them, so since we are not voting for win/lose scenario I feel no need to get too worked up about it.
 
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What it really comes down to is the blanket assumption that there will never be a set of circumstances where Mathilde and Cython can discuss things like reasonable adults or come to an equitable compromise.
You misunderstand me. My issue isn't primarily that Cython won't take Mathilde's feelings into account (although that is a possibility). It's that what I want for this quest and what I think would be in character for Mathilde to do, if she were to have an intimate relationship with a reciprocating Emperor Dragon, diverge.

Like, if I were in Mathilde's shoes and had an Emperor Dragon who takes interest in my affairs and whose affairs I take interest in, well, I would partner up to solve all the problems I think are now easily solvable. And if said Emperor Dragon can't deign to lower themselves to help me solve problems I deem important to my worldview, then I would take that to mean the Dragon doesn't take such a large interest in my affairs after all, which would impact my relationship with them negatively.

But as a reader with the choice to weigh in on whether I want to read and participate in a quality quest that's about Mathilde and her Emperor Dragon partner doing Emperor Dragon and Ambitious Human Wizard things, or read and participate in a quality quest more akin to the one we currently have, right now I prefer the latter.

Edit: The possibility for a less healthy relationship between Cython and Mathilde is also something I dislike, but those were just examples of things I didn't want to risk, not some kind of inevitability I fear.
 
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I suspect I would be a lot more in favor of Cython romance if our current relationship wasn't so minimal. But atm, there isn't anything at all that draws me toward them and away from Pan, and I look forward to the day where we have the option of nonromantic social turns with them. I believe Boney said that would happen when romance war is resolved in favor of one person.

Also, it is currently a tie between having Cython as the second romance psuedo-soft-lock in addition to Pan, and only doing Pan. It's been this tight all day, lol.
 
[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.
[X] Eike Hochschild, to get to know your future business partner.
 
Johann, Magister of the Gold Order
Royal Boon (Moderate): For their part in the Karak Eight Peaks campaign, they have earned a boon they have yet to call in.

Maximilian de Gaynesford, Magister of the Gold Order
Royal Boon (Moderate): For their part in the Karak Eight Peaks campaign, they have earned a boon they have yet to call in.
Wonder if they will cash their boons during their training montages. They could really do with some high end runic bling on the trip.
 
[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia
[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.
[X] Eike Hochschild, to get to know your future business partner.
[X] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.
 
In the interest of furthering discussion: a post analyzing our EIC actions. First, a recap.
Current Operations:
Complete dominance over Stirland government contracts.
Complete dominance over supplying goods and services in Karag Nar.
Moderate dominance of intra-Stirland trade.
Moderate dominance over Stirlandian wool products.
Moderate dominance on the Aver.
Moderate presence in interstate trade in Stirland, the Moot, and Talabecland.
Minor presence in interstate trade in Averland and Wissenland.
Minor presence in Nuln and Altdorf.

Major Product: Gerber-Kiesinger Repeating Rifle Factory in Blutdorf
Minor Product: Crossbow Factory in Blutdorf
The 'Stirland Repeater' has finally entered production, and Stirland's army will be phasing out the handgun in favour of an elite core armed with repeaters and the bulk of the ranged forces armed with crossbows. The Mk 2 boasts a smoother firing mechanism and a reduced chance of powder magazine detonation.

Key Partners:
King Byrnnoth Grundadrakk: Partnered with for the Skull River-Aver Reach canal project.
Elector Count Roswita Van Hal: Trusts the EIC to not take too much advantage of whatever economic control she sells to the EIC.
Grand Masterr Ruprecht Wulfhart of Ulrikadrin: Happy to maintain a trade link to the Empire.
Francesco Caravello of the Undumgi: Completely aligned with the EIC.

Leader: Governor Wilhelmina Hochschild (de facto: Dame Weber is for most purposes a silent partner and supports Wilhelmina's actions, giving her an effective majority).
Funding: Seed money provided by founding shareholders; currently reinvesting profits.
Headquarters: Wurtbad; townhouse on the same street as the Stirland Watch.
Recruitment: Recruits heavily from independent traders.
Shareholders: Dame Mathilde Weber (36%), Wilhelmina Hochschild (20%), Barony of Blutdorf (16%), County of Franzen (14%), County of Wolfsbach (14%)

Bone-Deep Truths:
Patriots: The EIC knows that the Empire's long-term financial well-being is utterly vital for the EIC.

Core Corporate Policies:
Don't Skin The Sheep: The EIC will always choose indefinite small profits over single windfalls.
Grudge-Averse: The EIC will never deliberately break a deal made with Dwarves, and will take any Dwarven complaints very seriously.
Riparian: The Dwarves are about to completely redraw the map. Be prepared.

Secondary Corporate Beliefs:
Tall, not Wide: The EIC prefers to dominate small areas than have small presences over large areas.
Insider Trading: The EIC likes to make profit from being the first to know important information.
Friends In High Places: The EIC likes to cultivate relationships with Elector Counts and other local rulers.
Eyes on Barak Varr: Though careful to cooperate rather than compete with Barak Varr, the eyes of the EIC have turned south.
Secrecy: A network of cipher disks have been adopted, ensuring that all important communications are unreadable to unfriendly eyes.

Information being collected and supplied to Mathilde:
Military movements of Stirland, and the events of the campaigns it undertakes.
Unexpected events and changes in the mood among the Undumgi.
Rumour Mill (Currently: Stirland, Talabecland, the Moot, Barak Varr.)
This is the EIC section from the Organizations threadmark, and usefully summarizes the EIC's assets, strategic position, and goals. It also summarizes what our current information web is funneling our way.
Rudiger von Bechafen, aka The Hochlander
Armament: Hochland Long Rifle, Woodsman's Axe

Linguist
Marksman
Straightforward
Stunted Magic: Is capable of casting Petty and Lesser spells.
Witch Hunter contacts
This is the gentleman we have hired to help out. Not a lot of interest here; "straightforward" and "linguist" seem most relevant.
Current Focus of the EIC: Expansion along the Aver
EIC Handler: The Hochlander

[ ] EIC: Completely and over management of the EIC intelligence apparatus to the Hochlander. Will remove this section from future turns and regain the half-turn invested in it.
[ ] EIC: Found an auditors division, to make sure the ledgers are in order.
[ ] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (specify who)
[ ] EIC: Reach out to Julia to find out if she's interested in being poached or passing on information.
[ ] EIC: Reach out to Roswita, and have the EIC start passing on tips about any tax evasion or other naughtiness by the EIC's rivals.
[ ] EIC: Start building a paramilitary river navy to ensure the coming trade explosion doesn't lead to a similar explosion in riverine banditry.
[ ] EIC: Sell some of the Grand Urbaz Bank coins to collectors and museums on King Belegar's behalf.
[ ] EIC: Integrate the Gong Farmers and the Niter Factory into the EIC, and expand production.
[ ] EIC: Have the EIC keep tabs on mercenaries so that they can be more easily hired if needed.
Here are the actions available to us, with the one we took this turn struck through. I'm going to go through these one at a time, evaluating their usefulness.
  • Completely [h]and over management of the EIC intelligence apparatus to the Hochlander. Will remove this section from future turns and regain the half-turn invested in it.
Might as well start big. This does exactly what it says on the tin: management of the EIC intelligence apparatus would be given to the Hochlander. He makes the decisions about how to steer the intel program, we get a half-AP back. The upside is obvious, so I'll just list the downsides: handing over a significant power base to someone we don't really know and haven't worked with for very long, plus losing control and getting frustrated when the EIC doesn't act in accordance with our priorities. There's also the possibility that we wouldn't get CCed on the intel reports anymore (I remember Boney saying something like that back in October, during the vote to turn the EIC into an intel org in the first place). But, well, maybe we're happy suffering through those for a half-AP back.
  • Found an auditors division, to make sure the ledgers are in order.
This is pure vegetables: anti-embezzling. We already created an internal investigation division three years ago (T25 Results part 2 if you're interested) to focus on misconduct that threatens the Empire, so I don't see value in doing this action too. It's just money, and the EIC strong values of Don't Skin the Sheep and Grudge-Averse seem likely to help deal with the worst possible fallout from embezzling.
  • Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (specify who)
Here's a juicy action. We've got the handlers, we've got the cipher disks, let's start doing some goddamn spy shit. The main issue I have with this one is, well, analysis paralysis over who we'd target; Marienburg is an obvious candidate, but it's so obvious that they'd be targeted for espionage by forces within the Empire that they are doubtlessly on high alert and I can't see us getting much of value that the Empire isn't already getting with their own spies. Other options I can see are @Briefvoice's suggestion of the Border Princes (to keep an eye out for pirates and banditry) or that cult of the hunter-god in Talabecland, but really I'm not sure what the best way to apply this admittedly potent tool is.
  • Reach out to Julia to find out if she's interested in being poached or passing on information.
I don't see a lot of value in this. It's a legacy option from when we had a much worse relationship with Roswita. I honestly don't want to compromise Roswita's intel network by poaching Julia or by making her a double agent. It just seems really potentially damaging for zero meaningful gain.
  • Reach out to Roswita, and have the EIC start passing on tips about any tax evasion or other naughtiness by the EIC's rivals.
Not only do I not think this is a good idea, I think this is an actively bad idea, and will campaign vociferously against it. This is pure crony capitalism: it's about getting the EIC's economic rivals in trouble with the law, with the obvious effect of increasing the EIC's local power. It is the weaponization of anti-corruption law to make sure it's enforced against one's enemies, and not even the interesting kind of anti-corruption that Warhammer has (we're obviously already letting the authorities know if people are in bed with vampires or Chaos; we're Bone-Deep Patriots).
  • Sell some of the Grand Urbaz Bank coins to collectors and museums on King Belegar's behalf.
hey everyone, arguing about the coins for the last few months was a lot of fun, want to do more?
  • Integrate the Gong Farmers and the Niter Factory into the EIC, and expand production.
I think this is a good idea to do. Increasing the amount of high-quality niter in the world, and thus the amount of high-quality gunpowder, can only help the forces of Order. On the more Mathilde-relevant side of things, this organization is an awkward appendix on our list of assets: we don't manage it, we don't collect the money, it just keeps chugging along in the background. Better to fold it into the EIC so the EIC can actively leverage it to the advantage of its gunpowder supply chain.

My only concern about this is, well, the fact that we aren't really supposed to have it in the first place. We embezzled it from Stirland, back during the handover to Roswita. So... the Hochlander might notice, and forward a report to the Bursar, and then we have some awkward questions to answer. I don't think it would be a big deal even if that did happen -- it was when we were a Journeywoman, and we can honestly argue that while we never paid tithe on it, we also haven't actually collected most of that money. Worst case scenario I can imagine is we have to pay back taxes plus a penalty, plus the Bursar frowns at us, but given the thread's headpat addiction that represents a serious downside. Would want to check with Boney about how Mathilde handles this before incorporating it into a turnplan.
  • Have the EIC keep tabs on mercenaries so that they can be more easily hired if needed.
Irrelevant at this point. We hired two (2) mercenaries: the best ones. We do not require more.

In conclusion, unless new options appear next turn, I think we should integrate the gong farmers and niter factory if Boney confirms that Mathilde can do so in a way unlikely to land her in too much hot water (I suspect the answer is "bring the back proceeds to the Grey College herself with an apology for tardiness on paying tithe"), and start embedding agents otherwise. As a thread, we should brainstorm espionage targets that make sense given where the EIC currently has penetration and what our goals are.
 
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Didn't we pay for that with our own dwarf favor?
Sort of. The Gong Farmers were never ours, we just folded them into the Watch as part of our, er, ill-fated efforts to fix its budget problems. Then we paid 2 dwarf favour to set up the niter factory, before Roswita ever arrived:
While the rank and file are dangling on the precipice of mutiny, the merely rank is humming along splendidly. A mid-level chemist has been sent from Zhufbar - why they leave the 'al' off alchemy, you've no idea - and after he performs a few tests to determine the difference between dwarvern and human waste, he designs the entire facility from scratch, built outside the western gate of Wurtbad. It takes a great deal of intervention from you to make happen because he has no patience for or knowledge of human business practices, but you're hoping that it will be worth the effort. The initial process, you frown to discover, is not all that different to the methods Jack 'acquired' from Wissenland - business with clay floors and waterproof roofs and a great deal of busy activity over months - but where he shows his mastery is in the purification, a step completely missing from the Wissenland techniques. Filter through wood ash, then boiled and filtered through mesh, and needle-like crystals of pure niter are produced - worth their weight in gold for use as fertilizer or producing gunpowder. Not the prettiest of victories, but you'll take it nonetheless.
But that was specifically under the auspices of the Stirland Watch: we invested our personal resources into it, but it was still, expressly, an asset of Stirland. And then we voted to embezzle it during the handover to Roswita:
[*] Plan Be the Bigger Witch
-[*] Give
--[*] Report on the past eight years
---[*] Add a note that wishes her well in her position as Elector Countess and our willingness to remain in correspondence by letter, so we could provide some advice.
--[*]The Runefang of Stirland
--[*] Information Network
---[*] Give Julia our full blessing (and recommendation, if Julia wants it) to go for Spymaster.
--[*]Abelhelm's repeater rifle
--[*] Miscellaneous contents of Abelhelm's Study
---[*] Minus Abelhelms' spare hat, brandy flask, and the books
-[*] Keep
--[*] Books from Abelhelm's study
--[*] Liber Mortis.
--[*] Gong Farmers and Niter Factory
--[*] Discretionary Funds
So, again, while I don't think we'd land in particularly hot water over it, it is nonetheless a youthful indiscretion that would embarrass us a bit if the Bursar chose to make an issue of it, and might make Roswita mad if she ever learned about it.
 
Sort of. The Gong Farmers were never ours, we just folded them into the Watch as part of our, er, ill-fated efforts to fix its budget problems. Then we paid 2 dwarf favour to set up the niter factory, before Roswita ever arrived:

But that was specifically under the auspices of the Stirland Watch: we invested our personal resources into it, but it was still, expressly, an asset of Stirland. And then we voted to embezzle it during the handover to Roswita:

So, again, while I don't think we'd land in particularly hot water over it, it is nonetheless a youthful indiscretion that would embarrass us a bit if the Bursar chose to make an issue of it, and might make Roswita mad if she ever learned about it.
...Is there a way to give it back? Assuming it would cause more trouble than we're interested in, of course.
 
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