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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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SO lets make a shortlist of the definitely possible list of things that we can use the Boon on.

remembering that it has to be under the power of the King of Eight Peaks ability to do.

if we can get a base going, we can see what is pushing it.

1: His support in taking land in the Border Princes.

2: Custom Dwarf Ironclad.

3: owning a lot more of the peak around our tower. (like, fully, forever.)

4: Increased relations between K8P and the Colleges of magic. (a set number of times K8P will come to the aid of the Colleges if called?)

5: three hundred dwarfs-at-arms that will fight or help us in any adventure we need them on. (they are weirdly oiled up and shirtless for not being slayers, but Mathy is afraid to as why.)

6: Hilarious amounts of Money. @Chronic

7: Fund our Book addiction or personal projects without them becoming the property of K8PS. @Quest

8: Our own personal dwarf semi-luxury aircraft and how to fly it. levels of luxury to combat-ready to be figured out

9: Get a World-Class Research system set up: (get everything (currently) on the list above and below the penthouse, towers, rooms, etc that involve research as if we spent max favours on it.)

go on guys, give me some stuff.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
SO lets make a shortlist of the definitely possible list of things that we can use the Boon on.

remembering that it has to be under the power of the King of Eight Peaks ability to do.

if we can get a base going, we can what is pushing it.

1: His support in taking land in the Border Princes.

2: Custom Dwarf Ironclad.

3: Owning our tower (like, fully, for all time.) and a lot of the peak around it.

4: Increased relations between K8P and the Colleges of magic. (a set number of times K8P will come to the aid of the Colleges if called?)

5: three hundred dwarfs-at-arms that will fight or help us in any adventure we need them on.


go on guys, give me some stuff.
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6: Hilarious amounts of Money.

7: Bok. Or another of the ancestral artifacts of Clan Angrund that will hopefully be found within the Vaults recovered during this latest campaign.
 
I think the best use of the boon would be to get a nice-to-have. Having Belegar do something like funding our library or sponsoring a costly personal project. Essentially things that we can ask from any rich and powerful dwarf king.

EDIT: I suppose we could save up every boon and favor we accumulate to spend on creating our own kingdom. I kinda like the idea of that tbh. Sounds like the start of a quest though, hilariously.
 
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There's no point in asking for anything right now, when it's not needed, when we may need it later.

After all, the empire great deed wasn't spent, what makes you think that it needs to be done right away? Just dwarven sensibilities?

edit: also what's the 'Tale of Metal timebomb'?

edit2: plz no 'plans' that result on a decapitation attempt by the grey college. No kingdoms, no vast amounts of mollah, no 'please kickstart the industrial revolution for me' either. Or at least, those i will tactically vote against.
 
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SCO said:
There's no point in asking for anything right now, when it's not needed, when we may need it later.

After all, the empire great deed wasn't spent, what makes you think that it needs to be done right away? Just dwarven sensibilities?

edit: also what's the 'Tale of Metal timebomb'?
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No reason I think. We're mostly just brainstorming ideas of what we could want that we couldn't get otherwise.

Tale of Metal let's you figure out exactly how any metal object was forged by touching the object and casting the spell. For dwarves who highly value guild secrets, that's a huuuuge no-no and them learning gold wizards can do that may lead to them cutting off all ties with the empire and retrieving every weapon or item they have sold so far.
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SCO said:
edit2: plz no 'plans' that result on a decapitation attempt by the grey college. No kingdoms, no vast amounts of mollah, no 'please kickstart the industrial revolution for me' either. Or at least, those i will tactically vote against.
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In my case, I was considering creating a kingdom through spending both our Imperial Boons and Belegar's thing and anything else we accumulated after this point. This is a cash in every favor to get both permission and resources to do what we need to.
 
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For Dwarfs to forgive Elves, you would need them to cumulatively do two things:

1. Admit that they were wrong.

2. Restitute the damages and/or do a series of great tasks that would benefit Karaz Ankor (think multiple reclaimations of lost Karaks)

That Elves should stop messing with Dwarfs whenever they get an opportunity goes without saying.

Bonus points for proving that Malekith and Druchii were responsible for initial disagreement. It will not relieve the Asur of their own blame, but it might lessen it at least somewhat.

Problem is, believe it or not, the first part of the equation. It basically requires a legendary-tier Phoenix King (think Magnus the Pious after defeating Chaos) deciding to spend most of his social and political capital on mending grudges.
 
SCO said:
There's no point in asking for anything right now, when it's not needed, when we may need it later.

After all, the empire great deed wasn't spent, what makes you think that it needs to be done right away? Just dwarven sensibilities?

edit: also what's the 'Tale of Metal timebomb'?
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Its one of the differences between humans and dwarfs, in that dwarfs don't like owning boons that are not collected on.

if we die before claimingour boon. a human would be ok with not being able to pay, for a dwarf its a true tragedy.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
SO lets make a shortlist of the definitely possible list of things that we can use the Boon on.

remembering that it has to be under the power of the King of Eight Peaks ability to do.

if we can get a base going, we can see what is pushing it.

1: His support in taking land in the Border Princes.

2: Custom Dwarf Ironclad.

3: Owning our tower (like, fully, for all time.) and a lot of the peak around it.

4: Increased relations between K8P and the Colleges of magic. (a set number of times K8P will come to the aid of the Colleges if called?)

5: three hundred dwarfs-at-arms that will fight or help us in any adventure we need them on. (they are weirdly oiled up and shirtless for not being slayers, but Mathy is afraid to as why.)

6: Hilarious amounts of Money. @Chronic

7: Fund our Book addiction or personal projects without them becoming the property of K8PS. @Quest

go on guys, give me some stuff.
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Leave and support for a sabbatical to work on the snake juice?
 
Oh right. Dumb copyright stuff.

You may want to introduce the concept of a 'patent office', with both a public description (ie: bare description of the technique or tool) and a 'inner description' (for recovering lost knowledge), which would basically be for the dwarves to publicize their stuff and say 'if you copy this stuff without permission the Karaz Ankor will grudge you to death', and which could be used to track violations of magic reverse engineering.

It may help with lost knowledge of runesmiths too. Then again maybe it's not that ok a idea, considering skaven thieves and their 'reverse engineering' (that they'd do anyway tbf).

It's also a horrid tool of the oligarchy, but that's shadowrun problems for the future /shadowrun theme starts playing dimly again
 
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@Jyn Ryvia Our own personal dwarf semi-luxury aircraft, pilot training, and permission to land in most (if not all) dwarven airfields/hangars. I say 'aircraft' so we could pick and choose between speed, space and combat ability.
And if that's not transcendent enough, we could also go full on Ace Combat villain and start a flying fortress megaproject
 
I'd strongly prefer to hold onto the boon for now. Like the imperial great deed. Belegar's given us everything we've ever asked for, so I can't think of anything that would be worth it now.

Horium said:
For Dwarfs to forgive Elves, you would need them to cumulatively do two things:

1. Admit that they were wrong.

2. Restitute the damages and/or do a series of great tasks that would benefit Karaz Ankor (think multiple reclaimations of lost Karaks)

That Elves should stop messing with Dwarfs whenever they get an opportunity goes without saying.

Bonus points for proving that Malekith and Druchii were responsible for initial disagreement. It will not relieve the Asur of their own blame, but it might lessen it at least somewhat.

Problem is, believe it or not, the first part of the equation. It basically requires a legendary-tier Phoenix King (think Magnus the Pious after defeating Chaos) deciding to spend most of his social and political capital on mending grudges.
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Eh- the dwarves would also have to get over themselves a bit. Three thousand years of war over a bead shaving is a bit more than you'd get just from killing the ambassador. It needs satisfaction, sure, but beards grow back. Dwarves don't.

Qq- what value do the dwarves actually offer the elves? Bodies in a shield wall, some minor support for mutual allies against chaos, but otherwise they stay in their Karaks sulking while the elves run around the world trying to keep things from getting worse, right? What can the dwarves offer on a geopolitical sense that would make it worth engaging them to the elves?
 
Sorry for how long this took @Alratan
Alratan said:
Where do the sources you mention as supporting your position describe the metaphysical nature of the gods and specify that they're discrete, unitary entities?

As far as I can tell they don't, and what they describe is fully consistent with the other model from the perspective of their worshippers.

Tome of Salvation, for example, is careful not to describe the nature of the gods, focusing on their worshippers and their beliefs. I'll have to check Tome of Corruption, but I thought it was similar + daemons.
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Tome of Corruption (Chapter 15) and the 7th edition Daemons of Chaos and Warriors of Chaos army books (at least my reading of them) support a metaphysical nature for the chaos gods that implies individual agency. They are still alien and anathema to mortal life but singular (not counting their daemons of course) and sophont with goals and personalities seperate from the sum of their daemons, their worshippers or their worshippers perceptions of the four.

As regards the metaphysical nature of the chaos gods being the same as the human, dwarf, halfling and elven gods we have already disagreed about that a lot without convincing eachother.

That said the best source for all gods, chaos or otherwise, having agency is Endtimes which I refuse to use on basic principle.:sour: Agree to disagree? We have been throwing quotes at each other over this since the hiatus ended.:V
 
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* or personal projects without them becoming the property of K8PS. @Quest

Wait, that's brilliant. We know that spending favor on things is how you get the credit for them in group efforts; that's why the Karak spending favor on a project shifts who gets the responsibility for things. However, if we spend a super-favor like this on 'I've got a cool super substance I wanted to research; please help me with that', then it's not the Karak getting the research credit, just helping us do our own research as a reward for helping them. We'd basically buy their share of the credit.

Plus it's small time enough that Belegar can definitely handle it, instead of leaving him hanging with that massive debt to us in reserve, or being incapable of fulfilling it and going crazy. (Of course, 'small time' is still a gigantic research tree, looking at the implications. We could be bound up in this for a number of years. But, as a reward for saving the entire Karak, 'help me do the warp juice' definitely sounds neat).
 
chocolote12 said:
* or personal projects without them becoming the property of K8PS. @Quest

Wait, that's brilliant. We know that spending favor on things is how you get the credit for them in group efforts; that's why the Karak spending favor on a project shifts who gets the responsibility for things. However, if we spend a super-favor like this on 'I've got a cool super substance I wanted to research; please help me with that', then it's not the Karak getting the research credit, just helping us do our own research as a reward for helping them. We'd basically buy their share of the credit.

Plus it's small time enough that Belegar can definitely handle it, instead of leaving him hanging with that massive debt to us in reserve, or being incapable of fulfilling it and going crazy. (Of course, 'small time' is still a gigantic research tree, looking at the implications. We could be bound up in this for a number of years. But, as a reward for saving the entire Karak, 'help me do the warp juice' definitely sounds neat).
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I actually quite like this one.
 
SCO said:
Oh right. Dumb copyright stuff.

You may want to introduce the concept of a 'patent office', with both a public description (ie: bare description of the technique or tool) and a 'inner description' (for recovering lost knowledge), which would basically be for the dwarves to publicize their stuff and say 'if you copy this stuff without permission the Karaz Ankor will grudge you to death', and which could be used to track violations of magic reverse engineering.

It may help with lost knowledge of runesmiths too. Then again maybe it's not that ok a idea, considering skaven thieves and their 'reverse engineering' (that they'd do anyway tbf).

It's also a horrid tool of the oligarchy, but that's shadowrun problems for the future /shadowrun theme starts playing dimly again
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have you been paying attention to the problems around insulin in US? its a problem IRL
 
Glau said:
What can the dwarves offer on a geopolitical sense that would make it worth engaging them to the elves?
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Think of karaks like military fortresses and you wouldn't be too far from reality.. Then, you could say that they could be hardpoints to delay and harass/raid the armies of the 'bad guys' while a dragon or two flies into the zone or out of a karak. Whenever they get pressured back, instead of dying gloriously, they can just enter the Karak and await reinforcement/healing/resting.

Though to be fair, apparently neither race gives a damn about stationary greenskins (anywhere but the Karaks in the case of dwarves, anywhere on the continents on the case of elves), so i doubt both races would actually work together to make things better proactively, outside of 'oh shit, global invasion, deal with it before we all die'.

have you been paying attention to the problems around insulin in US? its a problem IRL
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Yeah i know. The US is ridiculously corrupt though, so it's not surprising that the patent system (and everything else) became corrupted. These are dwarves though, and if they can jiggy up something with divine assistance, like the high throne or the sword of gazul, it gets pretty 'safe', imo - ideally if people abuse the system to price gouge the product, and it's 'essential' to the Karaz Ankor, maybe it could turn into property of Karaz Ankor for abuse when the god agrees.
 
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Glau said:
I'd strongly prefer to hold onto the boon for now. Like the imperial great deed. Belegar's given us everything we've ever asked for, so I can't think of anything that would be worth it now.



Eh- the dwarves would also have to get over themselves a bit. Three thousand years of war over a bead shaving is a bit more than you'd get just from killing the ambassador. It needs satisfaction, sure, but beards grow back. Dwarves don't.

Qq- what value do the dwarves actually offer the elves? Bodies in a shield wall, some minor support for mutual allies against chaos, but otherwise they stay in their Karaks sulking while the elves run around the world trying to keep things from getting worse, right? What can the dwarves offer on a geopolitical sense that would make it worth engaging them to the elves?
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Rune magic, their technology, their knowledge, material and martial assistance in various matters?

Let's not kid ourselves, if you think Ulthuan wouldn't very heartily welcome a Throng or two the next time Malekith comes knocking, or all the benefits that Dwarf support for the Long March would bring, you have another thing coming.

The one ally that would benefit Asur world position more than Karaz Ankor are Lizardmen. Maaaaaaybe Cathay.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
3: Owning our tower (like, fully, for all time.) and a lot of the peak around it.
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Don't we own it already?

Jyn Ryvia said:
Its one of the differences between humans and dwarfs, in that dwarfs don't like owning boons that are not collected on.

if we die before claimingour boon. a human would be ok with not being able to pay, for a dwarf its a true tragedy.
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Sure but we shouldn't really plan on Mathilde dying. Dwarfs ought to be ok with boons taking a long time to complete - the Runefangs took about a century or so.

Raikazin said:
Leave and support for a sabbatical to work on the snake juice?
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Not sure if a sabbatical is a Transcendental boon. Like considering Mathilde's skills and the fact that the Karak isn't an active warzone anymore doing the Kragg thing and locking ourselves up in the workshop for six months wouldn't be all that odd.

chocolote12 said:
However, if we spend a super-favor like this on 'I've got a cool super substance I wanted to research; please help me with that', then it's not the Karak getting the research credit, just helping us do our own research as a reward for helping them. We'd basically buy their share of the credit.
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Isn't this worth 10 Dwarf favor? For the matter Kragg needs Mathilde to even read the Runes on Bok so it'd be relatively easy to exchange favor for favor without bringing Belegar into it.
 
chocolote12 said:
* or personal projects without them becoming the property of K8PS. @Quest

Wait, that's brilliant. We know that spending favor on things is how you get the credit for them in group efforts; that's why the Karak spending favor on a project shifts who gets the responsibility for things. However, if we spend a super-favor like this on 'I've got a cool super substance I wanted to research; please help me with that', then it's not the Karak getting the research credit, just helping us do our own research as a reward for helping them. We'd basically buy their share of the credit.

Plus it's small time enough that Belegar can definitely handle it, instead of leaving him hanging with that massive debt to us in reserve, or being incapable of fulfilling it and going crazy. (Of course, 'small time' is still a gigantic research tree, looking at the implications. We could be bound up in this for a number of years. But, as a reward for saving the entire Karak, 'help me do the warp juice' definitely sounds neat).
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This is basically what I was suggesting earlier as well. Spending favor on it helps ensure we can responsibly spend time working on it.
 
Horium said:
Let's not kid ourselves, if you think Ulthuan wouldn't very heartily welcome a Throng or two the next time Malekith comes knocking, or all the benefits that Dwarf support for the Long March would bring, you have another thing coming.
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You underestimate High Elven pride. Accepting non-elven forces to their homeland even to fight back against Malekith would be an unacceptable admission of weakness to most of them. Have they not defeated the Witch King every time he came for the Phoenix Throne? They would think they can handle the Dark Elves themselves, even if it would cause them higher casualties.
 
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