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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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We roll amazingly, hold probably will end up a good decision, we roll really badly, hold will be a disaster.
medium rolls is a toss up.
Withdraw though, i think it would have to be a complete disaster of rolls to make withdraw go really sideways, it basicly a tactic to minimize losses in a worst case scenario.
Hold v Withdraw is basicly how much we want to risk, and the reward is proportional to that risk.
 
Fried brain said:
[X] FIRST LINE: Caldera
[X] SECOND LINE: Withdraw
[X] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley

I don't understand why people voted for "Hold" in the Second Line. Withdraw has the advantage of bleeding the enemy without significant dwarven casualties, and even if after the Waagh the karags are somewhat infested, it'll be easier to defeat them 1 Karag at a time than hold 3 or 4 Karags against Orcs with their blood up.
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We don't have to hold 3 or 4 karags we only have to hold 2. Karag Mhonar and Karagril are the only karags with entrances outside the shadow of effect. Withdraw bleeds the enemy true but so does being stuck outside a karag while artillery pounds them to dust.

Since the orcs have brought so many snotlings withdraw will likely bleed the waagh of snotlings instead of targets of value.

Valmond said:
We roll amazingly, hold probably will end up a good decision, we roll really badly, hold will be a disaster.
medium rolls is a toss up.
Withdraw though, i think it would have to be a complete disaster of rolls to make withdraw go really sideways, it basicly a tactic to minimize losses in a worst case scenario.
Hold v Withdraw is basicly how much we want to risk, and the reward is proportional to that risk.
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I find this logic fairly questionable. I agree that Hold v Withdraw is a risk vs reward situation but I think you are underselling the risk that withdraw has. We decrease the size of the waagh but we likely only decrease the size of the most expandable part. If the orcs are smart and use the snotlings then our third line is going to be in for a hell of a fight.

Withdraw cedes the second line of defense and fully places the burden of risk on the third line. The rolls for the second line change the risk for the third line and would need a really really good roll for the third line to experience no risk. Hold attempts to keep the orcs to the second line. This means if the second line gets a roll and if that goes well than great. If it doesn't than we get another roll with the third line.

In my opinion hold has risk put into two rolls while withhold has the risk placed into one roll (the third line).
 
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Kornet said:
Boney doesn't make outright trap options. Less good options and more good options are totally a thing, though.
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yeah, but I reckon which is which depends on whether you favor tactics or strategy. Like, we'll get bonuses on Holding for all the artillery and runelords, but the orcs would probably earn Maluses from Withdrawing. And then there's the narrative aspects, but again, that boils down to Tactics or Strategy. There's always going to be a bloody fight, a Waaaagh doesn't just up and die without severe intervention on the part of the dice gods, the only question is where and how.
Valmond said:
We roll amazingly, hold probably will end up a good decision, we roll really badly, hold will be a disaster.
medium rolls is a toss up.
Withdraw though, i think it would have to be a complete disaster of rolls to make withdraw go really sideways, it basicly a tactic to minimize losses in a worst case scenario.
Hold v Withdraw is basicly how much we want to risk, and the reward is proportional to that risk.
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Bad rolls for Withdraw means they take the Karags for practically nothing. Which would be incredibly painful to morale and cleaning up later. On the other hand, bad rolls for Hold isn't a total disaster, since there's still the retreat option if they become overwhelmed. Both sides are balanced, just in different ways.
 
Ericwinter said:
Bad rolls for Withdraw means they take the Karags for practically nothing. Which would be incredibly painful to morale and cleaning up later. On the other hand, bad rolls for Hold isn't a total disaster, since there's still the retreat option if they become overwhelmed. Both sides are balanced, just in different ways.
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Bad rolls, not just not good rolls, but actually holy fuck that's terrible rolls, may end up leading us not only loosing Karags for practrically nothing, but also loosing all our troops.
Even amazing rolls on withdrawal is going lose a mountain, while hold might actually just annihilate orc waagh without letting them in.
But the rewards are equal to risks, if Hold fails spectacularily enough, we might not be able to get any troops out before they get over run.
 
I fully expect the Waaagh to rout when a quarter or more of it gets incinerated in seconds. That's such a massive blow that I doubt any army could really withstand it except for maybe the undead.
 
13th Fleet said:
I fully expect the Waaagh to rout when a quarter or more of it gets incinerated in seconds. That's such a massive blow that I doubt any army could really withstand it except for maybe the undead.
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We are sorta of planning for them to scatter. That is what the second line of defense is about. How will we hold the scattering orcs.
 
Valmond said:
Bad rolls, not just not good rolls, but actually holy fuck that's terrible rolls, may end up leading us not only loosing Karags for practrically nothing, but also loosing all our troops.
Even amazing rolls on withdrawal is going lose a mountain, while hold might actually just annihilate orc waagh without letting them in.
But the rewards are equal to risks, if Hold fails spectacularily enough, we might not be able to get any troops out before they get over run.
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I'm, uh, not sure if you're disagreeing with me, but to compare and contrast, even really amazing rolls are again flipped. Hold ends with a full-stop, no holds barred victory. Withdraw makes it as good as, but you still need to attack and retake the mountains.it's... Hard to put into words, but it really isn't just bigger risks, bigger rewards. It's more of a sliding scale. One option has a not so terrible defeat but really big victory state, while the other has a not so big victory state, but a really bad defeat state. What makes it balanced is that the numbers need to be equally bad or good on either side to earn these extremes, while being much more average for the opposite extreme.
 
[X] FIRST LINE: Caldera
[X] SECOND LINE: Hold
[X] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley

Withdraw will automatically give up the artillery killzone for every orc in thos peaks, not a good idea. It changes a risk of failure into a certain lesser failure.
 
New reader reporting in! I've been largely reading this quest in between Total Warhammer Mortal Empires turns, so naturally I caught up in a few days. Great quest btw, I'm in it for the writing and Boney is brilliant. In particular, I really appreciate writers that eventually learn the difference between "its" and "it's" :V

As for the vote... Belegar seems to think that actually holding onto our positions if we Hold on second line is highly unlikely, and while we'd surely cause a lot of damage, ultimately trading casualties in tunnel fighting favors the Orcs more unless we can trade at way better than 8 to 1 (not counting snotlings), our strength is largely in splash damage from Burning Shadows, the 2 Runelords, and artillery. Therefore:

[X] FIRST LINE: Caldera
[X] SECOND LINE: Withdraw
[X] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley
 
tapkomet said:
As for the vote... Belegar seems to think that actually holding onto our positions if we Hold on second line is highly unlikely, and while we'd surely cause a lot of damage, ultimately trading casualties in tunnel fighting favors the Orcs more, our strength is largely in splash damage from Burning Shadows, the 2 Runelords, and artillery. Therefore
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Uh, you do realize that Hold is the option which actually keeps them in range of the artillery and runelord, right? You're voting for the one that leads to tunnel fighting, not the other way around.
 
BungieONI said:
Building up more satrapies in the Border Princes for Karak Eight Peaks and generally working towards improving the stability of the area between the Skull and Blood Rivers and Karak Eight Peaks and Barak Varr. It'd be a long term, and very beneficial option that keeps us close to home in Karak Eight Peaks.
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Alas if only we'd bought that border princess title...
 
Ericwinter said:
Uh, you do realize that Hold is the option which actually keeps them in range of the artillery and runelord, right? You're voting for the one that leads to tunnel fighting, not the other way around.
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Second, how we react to intrusion, either the Wyvern Caves being reached or the Karag entrances being breached.
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Either fighting in the Wyvern Caves or behind Karag entrances is going to be tunnel fighting. It's possible that orcs waiting to have a go at defensive positions inside will clump up outside enough to be good targets for bombardment, but that'd require them to be pretty stupid, and underestimating the greenskins is a fast route to the grave.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 6, 2019 at 6:32 AM, finished with 565 posts and 109 votes.
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tapkomet said:
Either fighting in the Wyvern Caves or behind Karag entrances is going to be tunnel fighting. It's possible that orcs waiting to have a go at defensive positions inside will clump up outside enough to be good targets for bombardment, but that'd require them to be pretty stupid, and underestimating the greenskins is a fast route to the grave.
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...except there's literally nothing else they can do. Like, Hold is designed to keep as many of the enemy outside the mountains as possible for as long as possible, and they have no choice but to die by cannon or die by the tower. Withdraw, on the other hand, just lets them all into the mountains and hopes our traps can do as much damage for less dwarf lives.
LightLan said:
Third line has them in range of our tower again. And artillery and the runelords as well.
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Uh, no. The artillery and the runelord, maybe, although from what I've been able to tell by the discussion that's probably not the case. The Tower, definitely not.
 
[X] FIRST LINE: Caldera
[X] SECOND LINE: Hold
[X] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley

Die well, Mors. Die well.
 
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tapkomet said:
Either fighting in the Wyvern Caves or behind Karag entrances is going to be tunnel fighting. It's possible that orcs waiting to have a go at defensive positions inside will clump up outside enough to be good targets for bombardment, but that'd require them to be pretty stupid, and underestimating the greenskins is a fast route to the grave.
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So this is what Boney said in regards to holding them above ground with the hold option and the artillery that can be brought to bear.
BoneyM said:
With the Eye, no. With cannon, catapults, ballistae, gyrocopters, and two Anvils of Doom, yes.
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With the hold option we are trying to keep them outside the mountain as long a possible by forcing them to fight in a small space as close as we can to the primary entrance points. So the orcs get stuck outside trying to get in as they get pounded by artillery.
 
Ericwinter said:
Uh, no. The artillery and the runelord, maybe, although from what I've been able to tell by the discussion that's probably not the case. The Tower, definitely not.
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The tower easily reaches all of the eastern valley.

what it can't reach is the eastern part of the caldera, because it's blocked by the citadel and the citadel/lhune and citadel/sentinels mountain range.
 
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