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Monstrous Arcanum page 82, Magma Dragon
One such Magam Dragon was Hagdar, scourge of the Dark Lands, who is one of the oldest Dragons to exist in that desolate and polluted wasteland. Once a Fire Dragon, he was taken captive many centuries ago by the Chaos Dwarfs of the Tower of Gorgoth. Binding him securely with chains made from ensorcelled iron, the Sorcerer Lords turned him into a living vessel capable of sustaining possession by a Daemon, their experiments undoubtedly a forerunner to those that would eventually create the Chaos Dwarf K'daai. Hagdar eventually escaped his bounds and wreaked a terrible vengeance upon the Chaos Dwarfs, destroying much of the Tower of Gorgoth and its surrounding slave encampment in a furious assault.

The Magma Dragon is rarely seen now, and only ventures forth from his lair below the Ash Ridge Mountains when challenged by some rival beast or summoned to war by mighty wizards. When he does fly forth, the Chaos Dwarf patrols who keep a wary eye on him have observed that his once white hot flesh is now turning in places to grey, lifeless stone. It will be many years before the terrible curse he shares with the sorcerers of that dark race subsumes Hagdar completely, and until then the massive slave caravans replenishing Gorgoth's still depleted work force continue to stay well clear of his lair.
It seems that in canon, the Chaos Dwarfs' petrification doesn't have anything to do with dwarf anti-magic; their magic's curse applies just as much to a dragon as it does to them.

Also god damn, just how common is it to enslave dragons to fight wars for you?
 
or the Gnostic ones that have him as a righteous rebel against a tyrant
I just want to point out that Gnostic itself is kind of difficult as a term, since it runs into a lot of the same problems as the Norse stuff, except worse. For the longest time, all we knew about their believes was what their enemies had to say, who thought they were horrible heretics. It's better these days, because we do actually have some texts probably written by people described as Gnostics, but there's also different traditions packed under that term, and who can have quite diverse opinions on the details of the cosmology.
Which is to say, whether Gnostic Lucifer is a rebel or a tyrant, whether he's irredemable or not, varies between different traditions. Hell, IIRC there's one where he's good in that he helps bring the chance for escape to humans, but due to his nature is himself irredemable in that he can't escape the material world.
As was a lot of the reputation of the Inquisition. Don't get me wrong, they were horrific bastards, but they spent the overwhelming majority of their time being horrific in the context of religious persecution, which these eras were still largely in favour of. So the later stories of them pursuing literal and figurative witch hunts were largely invented, even though the doctrine of most of the organizations that could be called the Inquisition considered believing in the very existence of witchcraft heretical.
Really, the worst of the witch trials happened during the renaissance, and the intellectual shift that produced them was in part due to the intellectual currents of the renaissance.
It would also fit with why Karak Azul and Karak Vlag are happier than the other Old Holds, they were diminishing but they were diminishing while in constant war and conflict, they had the excuse of being under constant attack for any deterioration they experienced. The other Holds didn't have that excuse, they were at relative peace and any degradation they experienced was solely their own fault for not being good enough despite being in as near as ideal a circumstance they could realistically be in the world they live in.
Were they even diminishing? Vlag lost population overall, but my understanding is a good chunk of that was the old guard, and they had actually started to have a growing population. And I don't think there's any direct information for Azul either way, but the fact that their king spends his time cheerfully tormenting the Greenskin around doesn't seem like he's diminishing a lot. And like, his wife had so many children they made her high priestess. Which doesn't say anything about the other women there, but still.
 
Well yeah, people need to rationalize when they break the rules, when the other side does it that is clearly them being evil. Odysseus is a trickster, (or a guile hero for technically) for tricking the Trojans into opening their gates to Greeks to get slaughtered, because Troy is the enemy. But Paris for managing to not just seduce Helen but steal Menelaus' treasure in the process is an oathbreaker who's gonna get it in the name of divine justice. The people who told each other legends around the hearth or campfire were no more free of cognitive dissonance than we are today, which is to say they were hypocrites too.

The big difference there, i think, is that Odysseus did not break his oath with the horse thing.
Had they sued for peace, and entered the city as guests, and then done the exact same thing succesfully, that would have been instant "piss of the gods" moment, because they would have been given guest rights, and accepted the resulting obligations.
It's the "oath broken" thing that makes the big difference.

I ALSO need to point out that the entire point of the Odyssey is Odyseus being punished for his hubris, of which the wooden horse thing was a pretty big part of. And even after returning to his home, he really did not have a happy end, the Odyssey just ends before that.

So, ya know, as much as people may have admired the intelligence of it all, I am pretty sure that "yes, this is an evil action" was something that was aknowledged by the myth, if not always the people reading/hearing it. Odyseus was larger than life, but not necessarilly worth emulating in all respects.

Oh badly done trickster is a terrible thing.
The Odyssey example is just a poor one.
I hate the whole "let's just get captured to get inside (or into better position to attack)" and "wear enemy uniforms" as somehow heroic and cunning actions when protagonists do them.
Sure people in real world did both, sometimes even for a decent cause.
But there is a reason why people doing them generally got shot with little complaint from either side.

Yes, tricking the gods is not automatically bad in Greek myth, nor are gods always right or righteous.
And hero in greek myth is just a person who has special powers, or the gods favour, not a good or moral person, so it does not really translate to more modern usage of the word.

Thing is, many people complain about tropes but have a hard time finding an example in a story that isn't awful* because good authors tend to be good at justifying things because they control not just the protagonist but the circumstances.

Saying that this thing is bad in abstract is one thing, but if you start looking at examples? Oh, these guys did it to save the world. Oh, these guys were oppossing an enemy who did and would do much worse war crimes, and besides, the setting is medieval so the whole thing is not considered war crime. Oh, the other guys were spies, not people in an active warzone, and that is an entirely different set of grey ethics to untangle. Oh, this whole thing is not about war objectives, but about finding dirt on one particular asshole. I keep going on with variations that make this more justified.

So a lot of time tropes get propagated by justified examples. Does that mean they do not teach the wrong lesson? That is a very long discussion in itself, and I am unsure myself, but point is, its hard to find an unimpeachable example to prove such a point.

*I use hard, not impossible, because even good stories make blunders with bad plot points or stupisly inserted tropes on occassion
 
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I ALSO need to point out that the entire point of the Odyssey is Odyseus being punished for his hubris, of which the wooden horse thing was a pretty big part of. And even after returning to his home, he really did not have a happy end, the Odyssey just ends before that.

Nah, it was the various giants killed and cows eaten along the way, he had no beef with the gods before the... er beef. He even had a prophecy that if his men would die and he'd wander alone for years if his men ate those cows to which the corollary was 'don't do that and you are fine'.
 
2 K word update, no threadmark? I think I have a quote for this.
"Guys, Boney posted 1K words."
"Short update?"
"Even better."

All this to say, where would linguistic drift even come from?
Bearing in mind I missed all of the conversation coming into this...
Even within the story there seems to be some linguistic drift as generational slang.
. "No, that's proper writing. Rakilid... maybe not. Never saw the purpose in making up new words, the old ones served our ancestors fine."
 
For all that the Karaz Ankor is facing constant attrition, it isn't as though that inherently prevents its growth. If 3/4 of births are male, and losses are disproportionately amongst men, then a dwarven society can have more deaths than births but still have an ever-increasing birth rate (even without an increase in children per mother). There is not an attritional spiral of a smaller population leading to a smaller new generation, who then both feel attrition more and lead to an even smaller generation afterwards. At least not directly.

Dwarves can sustain and grow past 'unsustainable' losses, at least theoretically. Obviously there is a limit, and deaths cause practical problems beyond these, and there are other factors beyond birth and death rates.

Such a society would have a population of a great many generations, that can take truly huge losses without impacting any generation hugely, and without impacting long term population numbers. But the 'short term' population drop hangs around for a long long time, and also boils the frog slowly, so to speak. As losses mount growth rate seem alright, but older generations are hollowed out - and may cause societal fatigue and a failure to pass on knowledge. As they mount further the younger generations must bear the attrition disproportionately, causing more social issues.

Meanwhile a society born from this gender-ratio imbalance of long-lived beings may have interesting values. Family values and parental attitudes might easily extend deeply to the wider social group if most men can't be fathers. Generational values may get deeply entrenched when there are so many generations, and familial identity spread so broadly and deeply. The dedication to craft or profession or anything might be highly encouraged - if most men can't dedicate themselves to children and family directly. And all this may also result in a society that demands its members accept self-sacrifice, and that encourages older generations to sacrifice themselves first, even as it builds social institutions that depend on them.

A lot of speculation informed by neither actual lore, any sort of science, or any sort of deep or rigorous thought. But I always thought the demographic impacts of having 3/4 male births go way beyond simply 'lower birth rate per person's.

It's an interesting, a grim, and a hopeful dynamic all at once.

Edit: Another framing is that each dwarven woman doesn't need to have four kids to have a stable population. The average mother needs to have one girl and one boy - and in the attempt will have 3 boys. But any given mother, who wants to 'do her duty', only personally needs to ensure a daughter.
 
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Bearing in mind I missed all of the conversation coming into this...
Even within the story there seems to be some linguistic drift as generational slang.
That's a new word being created, I don't think it's quite the same. New engineering terms would've also been required, but then could stay constant. I think the better example is the word(s) for boredom, which is explicitly called out in Quest as something where each generation makes up a new word that never quite enters the official dictionary, and the best approximation Mathilde could find as a consistent term was "pain of not creating". It was in the first Qretch action.
 
Nah, it was the various giants killed and cows eaten along the way, he had no beef with the gods before the... er beef. He even had a prophecy that if his men would die and he'd wander alone for years if his men ate those cows to which the corollary was 'don't do that and you are fine'.

That was the compound interest accrued after the start of the journey, but he got hit with the initial punishment that set up the circumstances needed to accrue said interest because of the horse. This is why I said it was a "pretty big part of" the hubris he was punished for and not the hubris he was punished of itself.
 
That was the compound interest accrued after the start of the journey, but he got hit with the initial punishment that set up the circumstances needed to accrue said interest because of the horse. This is why I said it was a "pretty big part of" the hubris he was punished for and not the hubris he was punished of itself.

Even if we consider that Poseidon being in the right in the perspective of the text, which doesn't seem clear to me at all it would not have been enough to do more than inconvenience Odysseus on his own.

Anyway this is getting a bit far afield. We can continue this in PM's so as not to derail the thread if you want.
 
Btw, I feel that if Mathilde really decides do "make her own Skaven Clan via kidnapped Rat-Mothers", then Thorek and Belegar's reactions would be essentially "Just call me when whole thing backfires, and you will need to wipe them out" (and grumbling about "moronic Umgi")
 
What makes a dark age a dark age? Misery, squalor, mass deaths, widespread illiteracy, technological backsliding, cultural stagnation? Well, that's how it's generally understood, but that's actually a mash-up of three different but overlapping meanings applied by different people with different motives. In the sense most used now, the colloquial sense, it's the low point in the story arc of a nation or people or continent, the second-act nadir that the protagonists must recover from. I've referred to the history of Kislev from shortly after the Great War to approximately nowish as a dark age, and the entire Time of Three Emperors as a dark age, and the Time of Woes is often referred to as a dark age. So far, so good, but there's a couple of significant problems with this.

First, history is very rarely so neat. Centuries of the history of a country or an entire continent cannot be as neatly summed up as that bit with Frodo and Sam in the ruins of Osgiliath. But once you've got the hammer of a historical template, an awful lot of things start looking like nails. Were there lucid moments of the Vampire Tzarina's reign? Were there periods of relative peace in the Time of Three Emperors? Were there lulls in the miseries of the Time of Woes? Have all of those been flattened under the dark age steamroller?

Second, just because it's the most common meaning doesn't mean it's the only one, but it's often assumed to be. Because when something is referred to as a dark age, most people assume they mean this first meaning, when it can actually mean one of the other meanings I'm about to get to. There's a reason why very few people use the term 'dark age' any more, and those that are too insistent on doing so should be very seriously side-eyed. There's a reason why you generally hear the terms 'Middle Ages' or 'Medieval' used instead today, and there's a similar shift happening in discussions about the Greek dark age.

The next most common meaning is much more literal - it's a dark age because we can't see it. Written records are fragile, and for us to have enough written records of an era for us to feel like we have a good handle on what was going on during it, an era needs to have produced a lot of writing. The 'dark age' following the collapse of Rome was dark because it shifted the chunks of Europe that English-speaking historians tend to focus on from a lot of centralized bureaucracy with a highly literate upper class, to more local powers that had much less need to write things down and often under the leadership of Celtic or Germanic peoples who had a lot less tradition of literacy at the time. This is intended, but very often not taken, as a values-neutral descriptor. We're just measuring whether or not they created a lot of writings for future historians to find, we're not weighing in on all that human suffering no longer being created to glorify the senate and people of Rome.

(By this definition, the Viking Age could be considered a dark age, because the Norsemen didn't use writing in the way most socities we're familiar with did - they used it on monuments to record great people or deeds, and seemingly to label objects with what they were for good luck - perhaps to remind them what they were supposed to be doing? - but not to keep records about their society or their culture or their religion. It's a topic of much consternation that the main sources we have about the Norse religion weren't written by people that actually believed in them, but by their Christian descendants who had their own agendas and preconceptions and religious obligations. This sort of cultural pollution between us and the 'dark age' is what gets Loki depicted as a Satanic figure instead of as a classical trickster in some places.)

(...the modern mainstream understanding of Satan, that is. You could draw some fascinating parallels between Loki, who causes Odin's most annoying problems but solves his otherwise unsolvable ones, and, say, the Judaic depictions that have him as God's enforcer or designated naysayer, or that one biblical one making a bet about that poor bugger Job, or the Gnostic ones that have him as a righteous rebel against a tyrant, or Milton's sexy tragic rebel trying to do his best but doomed by his flaws, or the sulkily gorgeous omnisexual menace from DC Comics and then the TV show Lucifer. If you were looking for a topic for your thesis and/or historical or urban fantasy series and don't mind a little excommunication between friends you could go a step further and posit a common mythological ancestor for all 'trickster' archetypes and even all 'formally loyal servant of the head god that now rebels for some good reasons and some personality flaw reasons' archetypes.)

(Going back to before the Viking and Satan asides, these differing interpretations of the term 'dark age' interacts interestingly in 40k's 'Dark Age of Technology'. At first read with the first meaning in mind, it's a darkly ironic title loaded with the baggage of the Machine Cult - they consider an age of boundless technology and widespread peace and prosperity a 'dark age' because it does not align with their dogma, right? But it's a dark age in the second sense because in an age of so much technology, all the records were made with technology, and in an era after the AI revolt, all of that technology is destroyed or hostile, making all those records inaccessible and therefore the era is imperceivable. The third meaning ties into it too.)

The third and original meaning is pure propaganda. The dark age started when our ancestors stopped being in charge, and resumed when we got to be in charge again. The 'Renaissance' was first called the renascita approximately thirty seconds after the first smug Italian man put paint on his brush, and thirty seconds after that they were excitedly inventing new ways for yesterday to have been horrible to make today look even better in contrast, and thirty seconds after that every other country in Europe was adopting local variations on the tale, including a whole bunch of English historians that eagerly poisoned the well for the glory of Britannica, several Georges, and one Victoria. The overwhelming majority of 'medieval torture devices' you can find a million books and articles and youtube videos about were invented as a result of, and to further feed into, this dynamic. As was a lot of the reputation of the Inquisition. Don't get me wrong, they were horrific bastards, but they spent the overwhelming majority of their time being horrific in the context of religious persecution, which these eras were still largely in favour of. So the later stories of them pursuing literal and figurative witch hunts were largely invented, even though the doctrine of most of the organizations that could be called the Inquisition considered believing in the very existence of witchcraft heretical.

The relevance of all this to the topic at hand is that the Dwarves barely had one and didn't at all have the other two. The Time of Woes was bad, sure, but it was very binary - Holds either fell or they didn't, and the ones that didn't were more often strengthened by the influx of refugees than they were weakened by the overall experience. The Karaz Ankor overall could be considered to have had a Dark Age, but the only individual Hold that could really claim to have had one is Karak Azul from its period of isolation. The rest either ended or were fine. In the second sense, none of them should have had any discontinuity of written records. There's a line in Dwarven history about 'the Great Book of Grudges of Karaz-a-Karak falling silent during this period', but, uh, what? Are you saying there's no Grudge recorded for Karak Ungor? For Karak Varn? For Eight Peaks and its neighbours? Bullshit. Lazy writers just want to be ambiguous about ancient history and don't like people rightfully pointing out that the Dwarves should be able to tell you what Snorri Whitebeard had for breakfast on any given day of his life after half an hour in what surely must be their meticulously-index archives. And the third? Nah. The Age of Reckoning is at best referred to as a throwback to the glory days, not - never - an eclipsing of them. That just doesn't fit with the entire Dwarven mindset.

All this to say, where would linguistic drift even come from?

They live in the same places, peopled by the same peoples, ruled by the same dynasties, with unbroken chain of written records going back to the creation of their language, with ironclad cultural and religious doctrines saying that these cannot be improved upon and should not be deviated from. They haven't been conquered, they haven't been displaced, they haven't been abandoned and rebuilt, they've never been under foreign rule, they've never had a ruler from an alien culture inherit through come quirk of a gnarled family tree. There have been diaspora but they've all gone outwards. The Hill Dwarves, those that built settlements in the flatlands to trade with the Elves? Absolutely could have introduced linguistic deviation... except they didn't come back home, they stayed behind and became the Imperial Dwarves. Ekrund, isolated in the Dragonback Mountains for so long? They helped found Karak Norn. The Middle Mountains Dwarves only sent their least influential mouths to feed back to the Karaz Ankor. The Norse Dwarves definitely had a lot of cultural interchange with the Norscans, but never reconnected with the Karaz Ankor to feed that back into the mainstream culture. The Chaos Dwarves absolutely did, but they have more cultural influence on Orcs and Kurgans than they do the Karaz Ankor. The only significant population I can think of that was isolated for long enough to start veering onto its own cultural course and then returned to the imperial core were the Mountains of Mourn colonies.

By all logic, Khazalid should follow its supposedly ironclad rules a lot more than it actually does. This would be interesting, because it would be a point where they are completely alien from the 'rules' of culture and society that we are familiar with, a string for the curious to pull on that will lead them deeper into investigating these people. Or, alternately, each time there's a variation from these rules, there should be the clear fingerprints of the ones that did it, with footprints leading back to one of these fracture points in Dwarven history - another string to pull on. 'Dawongr' should have a paragraph about how it was reintroduced to mainstream Khazalid from Norse Khazalid from, I don't know, some early pre-Chaos Norscan (Norsii, back then) who saved the life of a Norse Dwarf King and the saga of their bromance got popular enough in the vacuum before the arrival of the Imperial Tribes that the Norse Dwarf word 'Dawongr' took the place of the original 'Dawongi'. It gives you a string to pull about Norscan history for free, too! Or you could have all these variations be the effect of a rising cultural influence within the Karaz Ankor of the Young Holds, adding an extra dimension to the cultural rift between the Old and Young that might make for a really interesting dynamic between the Dwarfier Dwarfs that are richer and wiser but a pain to get along with, and the less Dwarfy Dwarfs that don't have the bottomless vaults or the fanciest runes but might actually speak your language and won't cut off business with your family for ten generations if you forget the proper way to groom your beard before a formal meeting.

But the cost of doing that means you have to do that. You lose the throwaway jokes like 'bugrit' being a Khazalid word, which wouldn't fuss me but some people do like. You can't do cute little references and directly transplant Tolkien place names. You have to do something about all the grandfathered term from the early days of the setting. You have to reign in all the Black Library writers who barely skim the setting bible and have historically been given free reign to multilaser and Egrimm van Horstmann all over the goddamn place. Maybe you just plain can't do this sort of thing in a setting like Warhammer, a collaboration between thousands of people over forty years and counting. Maybe this is the sort of thing you can only manage with a singular word nerd with a singular vision at the middle of it, either a solo project or a sufficiently stubborn auteur. But man, to me (perhaps not the most unbiased perspective the world has ever produced) it really feels like a missed opportunity.

Actually, you know what? On further thought, I retract that charitability. They're basically rebooting the setting, they absolutely could chisel the rules into rock and bring the language into line if they had the stones. I came up with a lore explanation for Cor Dum even though it ended up being a stupid wiki typo, they can come up with one for dawongr.
It's also been several thousand years. Even for a longer-lived people in a stodgy conservative society with excellent written records you'd still probably see some linguistic drift.
 
Btw, I feel that if Mathilde really decides do "make her own Skaven Clan via kidnapped Rat-Mothers", then Thorek and Belegar's reactions would be essentially "Just call me when whole thing backfires, and you will need to wipe them out" (and grumbling about "moronic Umgi")
When we originally had access to a bunch of Rat-Mothers, the conclusion was that we couldn't possibly do anything for them, since the stuff that makes Rat-Mothers function at all is Warpstone-based drugs and such, so any attempt to even figure out what's going on there would be forbidden as an Abominable Act? I don't think anything's changed since then, which to me puts "experiment with founding our own Skaven clan" as a slightly worse value proposition than "experiment with Necromancy".
 
'the Great Book of Grudges of Karaz-a-Karak falling silent during this period'
If I was forced to justify such a statement, I would say that it refers to the isolation between the Holds during the Age of Woes, rather than the dwarfs not making any grudges.

'Falling silent during this period' rather than 'about this period' could, if you really wanted to read it in a way that made sense in the context of the setting, be about how during this time the other Kings struggled to send word to Karaz-A-Karak about new grudges to be entered into the Great Book of Grudges, and the High King likewise struggled to send word to the Holds about grudges that had been entered into it.

This would line up with the idea that the Karaz Ankor effectively ceased to exist during the Age of Woes, and was only resurrected by Kurgan Ironbeard 1500 years later. If one of Karaz-A-Karak's main duties as the capital was maintaining records of grudges that affected the entire dawi people, and they couldn't do that so each Hold had to treat their own Book of Grudges as the end-stop for new grudges, then could there really be said to even be a singular dawi people?
 
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For book purchases, I'm going to make a controversial argument: having mostly exhausted topics we're really interested in for the languages we have available, we're now grabbing somewhat less enthusiastically wanted stuff, in a might-as-well manner.

Instead, why don't we start buying books on subjects we care a great deal about, in a language that we don't yet know? For language-learning there's been a real chicken-and-egg issue where people don't want to learn a language until we have books we want to read in it, and we don't have books we want to read in it because we don't know the language yet.

Well, let's start buying books on what Kislev thinks of itself, the Empire and the Karaz Ankor! Let's see what the realm that suffered under a vampire's rule has on fighting vampires, what a realm that's noted for its differing views on spirits has on those spirits, what it has on Ranald the Cat! Let's see what they know about greatswords!

There'll probably be at least a few books in Kislevarin from Karak Vlag, too. Let's get more books on subjects we really want bonuses in, and set the stage to actually learn Kislevarin!

I think we have to set up a source of books for a new realm before we can actually start doing that, but let's do it this turn, instead of doing background preparation for actions we - as far as I know - have no actual plans on doing in the coming turn.
 
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since mathilde reading and internalizing Light and Its Properties was a key moment in the development in her magic, it could be that most people wouldnt have an instinctive ease at creating the more complicated lens arrays that she makes.
An interesting idea, but no, that's explicitly one of the functions of the Tool-Free Enchantment skillset from the start. Mathilde just used it a lot, to great effect.

Note that one of the key abilities of Tool-Free Enchantment is the ability to create a furnace out of Ulgu anywhere with sunlight; part of that process is creating a series of giant magnifying lenses into your transparent furnace.

Light and its Properties is a great read for bettering your understanding of Ulgu in general, though; we should make sure Eike reads it.
 
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Btw, I feel that if Mathilde really decides do "make her own Skaven Clan via kidnapped Rat-Mothers", then Thorek and Belegar's reactions would be essentially "Just call me when whole thing backfires, and you will need to wipe them out" (and grumbling about "moronic Umgi")
When we originally had access to a bunch of Rat-Mothers, the conclusion was that we couldn't possibly do anything for them, since the stuff that makes Rat-Mothers function at all is Warpstone-based drugs and such, so any attempt to even figure out what's going on there would be forbidden as an Abominable Act? I don't think anything's changed since then, which to me puts "experiment with founding our own Skaven clan" as a slightly worse value proposition than "experiment with Necromancy".
Rat-Mothers are not natural and normal female Skaven can have kids. They are just overwhelmingly incentivised to not do so by their society.

If someone wanted to liberate some Skaven they would start by kidnapping/rescuing newborns or young kids, who would not be missed, and raising them.
 
It seems that in canon, the Chaos Dwarfs' petrification doesn't have anything to do with dwarf anti-magic; their magic's curse applies just as much to a dragon as it does to them.
Or they did Soul sorcery on the Dragon. Assuming the demon would be one of Hashut's or something like what the K'daai are.

Really its fascinating because I did incor—

almost spoiled things for my own ding dang quest. Never you mind.
#Thinkaboutthat.
 
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Though, it almost certainly was as meaningful to Mathilde as it was because of her (largely) visual windsight.

Eike might not get anything out of it.
I'm sure she would. It's not about Windsight; it's about how one of the key interactions with Ulgu is with light. Understanding light itself a lot better and having improved perspectives on it would allow one who shapes Ulgu to better use it to interact with and shape light.
 
Or they did Soul sorcery on the Dragon. Assuming the demon would be one of Hashut's or something like what the K'daai are.

Really its fascinating because I did incor—

almost spoiled things for my own ding dang quest. Never you mind.
#Thinkaboutthat.
Offloading your petrification onto a dragon by way of a forcibly imposed soul bond does sound pretty entirely on brand.
 
Offloading your petrification onto a dragon by way of a forcibly imposed soul bond does sound pretty entirely on brand.
Hitting somebody with a version of their own curse is actually one of the standard spells in the Lore of Hashut.

'Curse of Hashut'.
Channelling the malediction that inflicts his own twisted body, slowly transforming it into stone, the Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer turns the dark curse of Hashut on others, causing their bones to petrify and their flesh to grow brittle and crumble to dust.
(From the spell page on page 196 of Tamurkhan)
 
I ALSO need to point out that the entire point of the Odyssey is Odyseus being punished for his hubris, of which the wooden horse thing was a pretty big part of. And even after returning to his home, he really did not have a happy end, the Odyssey just ends before that.

These are both pretty untrue. The Odyssey is absolutely largely about punishment for Odysseus's hubris, but in the form of telling Polyphemus his name and boasting, not the Trojan Horse, which is portrayed as clever and worthy of praise. As for him having a happy ending, he absolutely does in the Odyssey itself...there were later works that retconned that, but we're talking 'later' in the sense of 'written hundreds of years later'.

So, ya know, as much as people may have admired the intelligence of it all, I am pretty sure that "yes, this is an evil action" was something that was aknowledged by the myth, if not always the people reading/hearing it. Odyseus was larger than life, but not necessarilly worth emulating in all respects.

Odysseus, like most heroes in Greek myth, is certainly not flawless, but he was generally a culture hero and most of his actions portrayed as laudable...by the Greeks. The Romans, who wanted to claim descent from surviving Trojans and had some quite different cultural values, tended to really dislike Odysseus and play up his negative traits, but that's a whole different culture centuries later.
 
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