Akasha
The Only Truth
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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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It's a damn shame there's a simple explanation for those Nehekharan friezes, because I have a great complicated explanation for them.
"According to inscriptions, the Carrion were sacred beasts and agents of Ualatp, who bore the souls of lost warriors to the sky to fight in endless battles against the Daemons of darkness." So Nehekharan mythology claims that their dead warriors fight daemons or something, that could half explain it but it doesn't explain the elves. But you know what does explain the elves? The Waystone network. In the first meeting of the Waystone project Mathilde mentioned the kurgans that were built to support the Waystone network, which were "guarded by the Khans buried beneath it". The pyramids of Nehekhara are burial sites that double as components of the Waystone network, just like the kurgans, so it's certainly possible that they too somehow employ the spirits of the dead to do their magic - which may or may not involve Ualatp and the carion birds that were buried in the pyramids. The elves are there because the Waystone network is after all principally an elven project, so the friezes are depicting the the warriors of Nehekhara metaphorically standing together with the elves against Chaos by building Waystones or Waystone-esque things.
As to how the Nehekharans know about the connection of the elves to the network, well, they had to learn about Waystone from somewhere. If it was directly from the elves that would explain it, but since their magic was so tied to their religion perhaps it was from their Gods, who would certainly know about the elves if they indeed partly or wholly overlap with the elven pantheon. The Lights mentioned 'Tahoth Trisheros' in relation to the Nehekharan network, so possibly the God who gave them that knowledge was Hoeth (since Tahoth is obviously Hoeth I mean come on), which explains why the elves are specifically Loremasters (and recall that Hoeth's assocations with swords seems to date to the coming of Chaos, in an Asur myth that may be a mythologization of the construction of the vortex or something).
But alas, there is a historical event that fits those pictures perfectly, so I guess that's probably the actual explanation.
"According to inscriptions, the Carrion were sacred beasts and agents of Ualatp, who bore the souls of lost warriors to the sky to fight in endless battles against the Daemons of darkness." So Nehekharan mythology claims that their dead warriors fight daemons or something, that could half explain it but it doesn't explain the elves. But you know what does explain the elves? The Waystone network. In the first meeting of the Waystone project Mathilde mentioned the kurgans that were built to support the Waystone network, which were "guarded by the Khans buried beneath it". The pyramids of Nehekhara are burial sites that double as components of the Waystone network, just like the kurgans, so it's certainly possible that they too somehow employ the spirits of the dead to do their magic - which may or may not involve Ualatp and the carion birds that were buried in the pyramids. The elves are there because the Waystone network is after all principally an elven project, so the friezes are depicting the the warriors of Nehekhara metaphorically standing together with the elves against Chaos by building Waystones or Waystone-esque things.
As to how the Nehekharans know about the connection of the elves to the network, well, they had to learn about Waystone from somewhere. If it was directly from the elves that would explain it, but since their magic was so tied to their religion perhaps it was from their Gods, who would certainly know about the elves if they indeed partly or wholly overlap with the elven pantheon. The Lights mentioned 'Tahoth Trisheros' in relation to the Nehekharan network, so possibly the God who gave them that knowledge was Hoeth (since Tahoth is obviously Hoeth I mean come on), which explains why the elves are specifically Loremasters (and recall that Hoeth's assocations with swords seems to date to the coming of Chaos, in an Asur myth that may be a mythologization of the construction of the vortex or something).
But alas, there is a historical event that fits those pictures perfectly, so I guess that's probably the actual explanation.
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Fundamentally we do not want Marienburg to lose a war, we do not want their citizens hurt or their books damaged. (). What we want is for them to be reintegrated into the Empire with minimal losses. Ideally an imperial loyalist coup would be set off and invite the Imperial army into the city to purge the secessionists after which the Emperor lowers the taxes on the common people to blunt the resentment, improves infrastructure and Heidi enshrines Ranald the Dealer.
From an in character perspective I can see Mathilde being somewhat patriotic enough to want peaceful integration. Even less patriotic Mahtilde would like more prominence for her Oldest Friend. Though maaaayybbeee she'd be more open to "mutually ignore each other" if Marienburg ever opened up their libraries to visitors.
From a meta perspective I'm not particularly revanchavist but would like Marienburg to stop being so...Marienburg with their mercantilism to the point that all of their neighbors are down to fuck them over. Like damn, I thought "marienburg Delenda Est" was an Empire specific brainbug. Then during the negotiation with Eltharion, the QM clarified that no, everyone in the Waystone project is down to jettison everything else they can bilk from the Asur specifically to kick Marienburg in the nads. It was incredibly illuminating. Sure, the Chancellor has probably spent overtime making them look like the worst thing since the Polar Gates exploding but damn.
At the end of the day the issue with Marienburg is that it does not have the same incentives as everyone else, it is too insulated from the dangers of Chaos, Waaghs and necromancers to worry about them so it plays stupid games with the Empire and, to a lesser extent, Bretonia. The one serious potential Chaotic threat to them is Norsca, hence why they tried to ween the southern tribes off it, but even if that fails and some warlord really wants to burn the city to the ground they can be reasonably confident the Asur will fight with them and Marienburg plus the Asur could hold off any invasion from the sea short of an Everchosen and they know it.
All our work to tie the Old World closer together though canals, which can be used for logistics and reinforcements as much as trade not only does not find favor in Marienburg, but actively works against them, same thing with Thorgrim's idea of a League of Nature predicated on controlling the roads to the east. Marienburg has too much to gain from other Old World nation losing so in the cold light of realpolitik everyone else has to gain from them losing, for an example of this see the fact that asking the Asur to lift their protection of the directorate would have had the blessing of Kislev, the Eonir and the Karaz Ankor.
All our work to tie the Old World closer together though canals, which can be used for logistics and reinforcements as much as trade not only does not find favor in Marienburg, but actively works against them, same thing with Thorgrim's idea of a League of Nature predicated on controlling the roads to the east. Marienburg has too much to gain from other Old World nation losing so in the cold light of realpolitik everyone else has to gain from them losing, for an example of this see the fact that asking the Asur to lift their protection of the directorate would have had the blessing of Kislev, the Eonir and the Karaz Ankor.
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- Location
- Greece
Yeah, honestly, I do not care about Marienburg because I want land, or books (I want books, they just do not justify a war) or headpats.
I want its rulers to stop being so big assholes they are comparable to the Asrai and are fighting them for the worst order spot. Because that hurts everyone.
Conquering is just the simplest way to do that.
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Ehhhh I'm not down for overt hostile action, especially since the biggest thing--the blowing up of the Okral ship--does seem to be a chaos cult specific thing which they were able to self police. But taking away their monopoly and telling them to suck it up and deal plus the diplomatic equivalent of going "Neer neer neer we're specifically making a Cool Kids Club you aren't invited to EVER" (expanded canal trade networks, the Waystone agreement, etc), and honestly only escalating if they do? Sure.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The Asrai do use Dhar, it's just that their users get paired up with Qhaysh users to balance them out; though I suppose Boney might not use that lore.
Quite possibly that's what it is, but I can't help but think that those Nehekharan soldiers do not look like skeletons. At the very least, there's some artistic liberties going on, which is odd given how other frieze-style artworks in the same book do not shy away from depicting Nehekharans as actual skeletons.
Very true - and it's not like WHF has been a stranger to deliberately anachronistic artwork. Here's an artwork from the background book Empire at War:I mean, it wouldn't be the first time artists of a later era presented anachronistic things in artwork. IIRC, it was quite common for medieval artists to do so.
E.G: This is The Humiliation of Emperor Valerian by Shapur, King of Persia by Hans Holbein the Younger—a 16th century artwork depicting the 2nd century emperor Valerian being humiliated by the king of the Persians with everyone dressed and armed like 16th century German soldiers
It'd be easy enough to justify it by just going "The Nehekharas have a weird myth about their ancestors fighting daemons alongside the elves and they just present it weirdly."
Personally, I don't view Marienburg as important enough for us to focus on them. If we find a way that benefits us that incidentally inconveniences them, good, but we shouldn't go out of our way
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Note that, if using this lore as written, this is actually highly effective at keeping their dhar users sane and clearing up any unpleasant magical residue.
- Location
- Greece
What? C'mon, its obviously Gnomes
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I mean, personal opinions about Marienburg are nice and all, but Mathilde has actually expressed her own thoughts on both them and the druuchi that are somewhat at odds with the seeming consensus.
And, much like her distain for Sigmar, i want to play those to the hilt.
And, much like her distain for Sigmar, i want to play those to the hilt.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Even Mathilde saying that she wants Marienbourg burned to the ground would change precisely nothing to how I would vote, in-character reasons be damned.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Noses aren't big enough.
Mathilde's opinions are whatever we vote for as long as the GM does not call them out as specifically OOC.
consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
Official Imperial Policy is Fuck Marienburg. Official Kislevite and Karaz Ankor policy seems to be that Marienburg Can Get Fucked. Official EIC policy seems to be that Marienburg Can Get Fucked, Twice, With a Cactus.
We and Mathilde can come up with any number of justifications for why Fucking Marienburg may be suboptimal to the point of being last on the long ever growing list of priorities. But if it actually comes down to it unless we rather urgently take an emergency appointment to govern Swamp Town while plugging our ears and yelling loudly, we almost certainly at a bare minimum loudly give the Emperor his harrumph on the subject.
Or we could go Black Magister. That'd be fun too.
We and Mathilde can come up with any number of justifications for why Fucking Marienburg may be suboptimal to the point of being last on the long ever growing list of priorities. But if it actually comes down to it unless we rather urgently take an emergency appointment to govern Swamp Town while plugging our ears and yelling loudly, we almost certainly at a bare minimum loudly give the Emperor his harrumph on the subject.
Or we could go Black Magister. That'd be fun too.
Counterpoint: * Sad Pan Pan noises*.
- Location
- France
Just because we're playing the Imperial Secret Police doesn't mean you have to roleplay as the CIA.Fundamentally we do not want Marienburg to lose a war, we do not want their citizens hurt or their books damaged. (
The reason the CIA fucks up so badly and so often is that it attempts to play imperial politics in a post-Imperial world, Warhammer is not a post-Imperial world, not by far.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
If you want to ignore that we have her internal monologue to reference on subjects like this, sure.
Personally, I find it interesting when Mathilde has opinions that do not just come from the thread. The thread is agnostic as to which good faction it wants to win, and regards any conflict between them as bad.
Mathilde, not so much.
I mean, there is one way I could agree to fuck Marienburg. Formenting a Ranaldian revolt to create a ranaldian republic (whatever that means lol) is something I'd love to do.
I could easily see us get covert help from the Emperor (and Heidi).
But more realisticly, I think it would be more reasonable to just Talk with Marienburg to obtain what we want than to try to conquer it. We would come from a position of strenght since the city is about to lose some of it's monopoly and is pretty isolated diplomaticly.
Talking to enemies seems to pay dividends whenever we choose the option. Just from memory : buying supplies in Uzkulak, negociating free passage and supplies from that Chaos tribe, befriending Querch. And I can't seem to recall any occasion where engaging in dialogue bit us back in the ass.
I could easily see us get covert help from the Emperor (and Heidi).
But more realisticly, I think it would be more reasonable to just Talk with Marienburg to obtain what we want than to try to conquer it. We would come from a position of strenght since the city is about to lose some of it's monopoly and is pretty isolated diplomaticly.
Talking to enemies seems to pay dividends whenever we choose the option. Just from memory : buying supplies in Uzkulak, negociating free passage and supplies from that Chaos tribe, befriending Querch. And I can't seem to recall any occasion where engaging in dialogue bit us back in the ass.
Mathilde is in fact capable of changing her mind, she does it all the time and convinces herself that she did not change it too.
Or in a less extreme reading Mathilde was entirely fine with dwarvish ironclads shelling Marienburg's coastal infrastructure to splinters. She would not have suggested that if she did not think the dwarfs would do it and that it was appropriate.
Her opinion isn't 'Marienburg delenda est', but then memes aside neither is ours. In fact I would say our general perspective on Marienburg is the quintessential 'don't make me come over there'.