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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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...Ok, here's an interesting question that I don't think has been asked yet: Boney, we know the dwarfs prefer to be literal in most things, and that the elves prefer to see all things more multifaceted rather than choosing a single 'correct' thing, so the question arises: how did the ancient Asur see the gods of their at-the-time-friends, the dwarfs, the Ancestor Gods?

How would the ancient Asur embellish and mythologize the Ancestor Gods, whose God Stories as told by the dwarfs are basically The Life And Times of The Ancestor Gods As Told As Literally And Exactly As Possible?


Prime 2.0 said:
Linguistics +17 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven / Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
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Textiles +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
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The Eonir of Laurelorn +15 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven / Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
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Hoeth, Lord of Wisdom +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
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Loec, the Shadow Dancer +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
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Hekarti, the Hydra Queen +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
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We already had these from previous buying rounds, but yeah, it's good to note them anyway.
 
Grey lord is an anagram of "ogre dryl"

[x] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Liminal Pathways, Nehekharan Pantheon, The Mortuary Cult, Nehekharan Incantations
[x] [COLLEGE] An Ulgu powerstone (5 CF)
[x] [DWARF] No purchase.
 
Parabola said:
...Ok, here's an interesting question that I don't think has been asked yet: Boney, we know the dwarfs prefer to be literal in most things, and that the elves prefer to see all things more multifaceted rather than choosing a single 'correct' thing, so the question arises: how did the ancient Asur see the gods of their at-the-time-friends, the dwarfs, the Ancestor Gods?

How would the ancient Asur embellish and mythologize the Ancestor Gods, whose God Stories as told by the dwarfs are basically The Life And Times of The Ancestor Gods As Told As Literally And Exactly As Possible?
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The mainstream take on them was that they weren't Gods at all and that it was just an embellishment of their greatest ancestors, and that the Dwarves completely spurned all actual Gods, which generally turned into a debate about whether the Elves would have been better off pursuing a similar path. There's a parallel take that they might still be alive somewhere in the same way that Caledor Dragontamer was, and so were being venerated as a force still active in the world for that reason. In other places they're seen as just being the Dwarven equivalent of being positive role models for Dwarves to follow. The few Elves that speculate that the Ancestor Gods actually are Gods tend to be rather nervous about Snorri Whitebeard's dying oath.

Elves are pretty bad at writing about non-Elves without making it actually about Elves.
 
I look forward to the crushing overwhelming victory of Pan's next social vote. :)

Seriously though, "I have a tower that is also a tree in the middle of an ecosystem I built from literal sterile dust with my own two hands" had got to be one of the greatest jade wizard flexes ever.
 
Boney said:
The mainstream take on them was that they weren't Gods at all and that it was just an embellishment of their greatest ancestors, and that the Dwarves completely spurned all actual Gods, which generally turned into a debate about whether the Elves would have been better off pursuing a similar path. There's a parallel take that they might still be alive somewhere in the same way that Caledor Dragontamer was, and so were being venerated as a force still active in the world for that reason. In other places they're seen as just being the Dwarven equivalent of being positive role models for Dwarves to follow. The few Elves that speculate that the Ancestor Gods actually are Gods tend to be rather nervous about Snorri Whitebeard's dying oath.

Elves are pretty bad at writing about non-Elves without making it actually about Elves.
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Is enlightened

I bet Alith Anar heard Snorri Whitebeard's dying oath at some point and went "mood".
 
Boney said:
The mainstream take on them was that they weren't Gods at all and that it was just an embellishment of their greatest ancestors, and that the Dwarves completely spurned all actual Gods, which generally turned into a debate about whether the Elves would have been better off pursuing a similar path. There's a parallel take that they might still be alive somewhere in the same way that Caledor Dragontamer was, and so were being venerated as a force still active in the world for that reason. In other places they're seen as just being the Dwarven equivalent of being positive role models for Dwarves to follow. The few Elves that speculate that the Ancestor Gods actually are Gods tend to be rather nervous about Snorri Whitebeard's dying oath.

Elves are pretty bad at writing about non-Elves without making it actually about Elves.
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What was Snorri Whitebeard's dying oath?
 
SaltyWaffles said:
What was Snorri Whitebeard's dying oath?
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"Let it be known to our allies and our enemies, that the death is not the end of my guardianship. Vengeance shall be mine. When our foes are great, I shall return to my people. When the foul creatures of this world bay at the doors to Karaz-a-Karak, I shall take up my axe once more, and my ire shall rock the mountains. Heed my words, Malekith of Ulthuan, and heed them well. Great have been our deeds, and great is the legacy that I leave to you, my closest confidant, my finest comrade in arms. Swear to me now, as my dying breath fills my lungs, that my oath has been heard. Swear to it on my own grave, on my spirit, that you shall remain true to the ideals we have both striven for these many years. And know this, that there is nothing so foul as an oath breaker."

Malekith is such an asshole that he may have been part of the reason why Grombrindal is still around.

Edit: Like, there's a direct parallel/foil here, between Grombrindal and Alith Anar. Both are legendary figures that have defied death in the name of hate and vengeance, and both have a history with Malekith.

Grombrindal always shows up when the Karaz Ankor desperately needs help, and defends dwarfs. Alith Anar on the other hand, is mostly an offensive figure against Malekith, who does things like nail Druchii alive to a cliffside to serve as an example, harasses ships, ambushes warriors, plunders convoys and supposedly stole from Morathi's own treasury after dancing with her in disguise at her son's court.
 
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Boney said:
There aren't any.
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Thought as much. Figured Total War was mixing up Morai-Heg and Loec that one time.

Boney said:
They don't, the Asrai vibe of unleashing the savagery of nature is a separate doctrine to the Eonir having meticulously shaped the wild to serve them.
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Wouldn't that be potatoes potatoes in this case? Getting the wild to serve you sounds like it'd be compatible with getting animals to march on campaign with you. (Do the Eonir campaign actually? I don't know how they do warfare.)

More subjects:
-Pigeons, assuming they use messenger birds. Though if they do, maybe they use birds of prey for that like in Naruto. They're both settlements hidden in the leaves so it makes sense for that to be how it is.
-Logic, for its use in Chamon. What's the difference between Logic and Philosophy, actually?
-Sciences associated with Addaioth. Chemistry? Pyrology? Mineralogy is already covered.
-Chemistry for its use in medicine, metallurgy (galvanising, like what the dwarves have), fertiliser, and Chamon.
-Humorism if that's involved in the elven practice of elementalism. (My memory may be off on them using elementals; I remember something about using them to clean the water in Marienburg?)
-Hydrology too if that's involved in their elementalism like it is for the Nulners.
-Corvids, because Morai-Heg. Also because crows are the most flexible animal interpreters if they can speak Eltharin, since they speak both Barnyard and Wild (though that is 4e lore, and more impactful than Archives 3 alone suggests).
-Minor Gods of the Empire. In this update, Cadaeth says that Ulric being a god of the Reik Basin would be sufficient for them to get to worshipping him. If minor gods exist within the region of Laurelorn, they might worship them too. Perhaps not the ones out in the forest, but if the river Tor Lithanel is built by has a local river god, that might count. Maybe they also have some Asur lore of the Reik basin's minor gods, or even the Old Faith gods.
-Genetics maybe? Assuming their forest domestication isn't entirely magical.
-Windherding? Maybe it's something they already invented since it's way easier than High Magic and not all mages/spellweavers would want to do High Magic.

Why's Addaioth so popular among Wood Elves? There aren't ordinarily volcanoes in forests. Something to do with Addaivoch, maybe?
 
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Andres said:
-Minor Gods of the Empire. In this update, Cadaeth says that Ulric being a god of the Reik Basin would be sufficient for them to get to worshipping him. If minor gods exist within the region of Laurelorn, they might worship them too. Perhaps not the ones out in the forest, but if the river Tor Lithanel is built by has a local river god, that might count. Maybe they also have some Asur lore of the Reik basin's minor gods, or even the Old Faith gods.
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IIRC Minor Gods of the Empire encompasses a number of big spirits too (the distinction is not too clear sometimes)... But Laurelorn has cultivated its forest quite thoroughly, so I would imagine most of its spirits would fall under Forest Spirits.

Andres said:
-Windherding? Maybe it's something they already invented since it's way easier than High Magic and not all mages/spellweavers would want to do High Magic.
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I would assume that what we consider Windherding is in fact just a primitive/more complicated/roundabout/less-useful-for-elves form of Qhaysh, honestly.
 
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Andres said:
Wouldn't that be potatoes potatoes in this case? Getting the wild to serve you sounds like it'd be compatible with getting animals to march on campaign with you. (Do the Eonir campaign actually? I don't know how they do warfare.)
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Wild doesn't serve, definitionally. Making it serve you makes it stop being wild. That's the whole thing with Laurelorn Forest - it is not wild or natural, it is exactly what it has been made to be, nothing more and nothing less. That is very different to the relationship between Athel Loren and the Asrai. That Laurelorn has a generic Wood ELf roster in Total Warhammer does not mean anything for this quest.

Andres said:
-Pigeons, assuming they use messenger birds. Though if they do, maybe they use birds of prey for that like in Naruto. They're both settlements hidden in the leaves so it makes sense for that to be how it is.
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Most of the reasons pigeons were used for that evaporate when you can give the birds orders that they understand. At that point you want something that's most likely to get the message to where it's needed, which means you want a bird of prey.

Andres said:
-Logic, for its use in Chamon. What's the difference between Logic and Philosophy, actually?
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You'd need a degree in at least one of those to give a full answer, and you'd still disagree with someone who had the other degree.

Andres said:
-Sciences associated with Addaioth. Chemistry? Pyrology? Mineralogy is already covered.
-Chemistry for its use in medicine, metallurgy (galvanising, like what the dwarves have), fertiliser, and Chamon.
-Corvids, because Morai-Heg. Also because they're the most flexible animal interpreters if they can speak Eltharin, since they speak both Barnyard and Wild (though that is 4e lore, and more impactful than Archives 3 alone suggests).
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Major House and/or Temple stuff.

Andres said:
-Humorism if that's involved in the elven practice of elementalism. (My memory may be off on them using elementals; I remember something about using them to clean the water in Marienburg?)
-Hydrology too if that's involved in their elementalism like it is for the Nulners.
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They aren't.

Andres said:
-Minor Gods of the Empire. In this update, Cadaeth says that Ulric being a god of the Reik Basin would be sufficient for them to get to worshipping him. If minor gods exist within the region of Laurelorn, they might worship them too. Perhaps not the ones out in the forest, but if the river Tor Lithanel is built by has a local river god, that might count. Maybe they also have some Asur lore of the Reik basin's minor gods, or even the Old Faith gods.
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The amount of Minor Gods of the Empire that Laurelorn would ever have been exposed to would be single digit percentages at the very most. They do not have a meaningful contribution to make to the corpus.

Andres said:
-Genetics maybe? Assuming their forest domestication isn't entirely magical.
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Part of general zoological topics.

Andres said:
-Windherding? Maybe it's something they already invented since it's way easier than High Magic and not all mages/spellweavers would want to do High Magic.
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Windherding has no utility in a society that has access to High Magic.

Andres said:
Why's Addaioth so popular among Wood Elves? There aren't ordinarily volcanoes in forests. Something to do with Addaivoch, maybe?
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He's not just volcanos, he's the All-Consuming Flame. You don't want to be on His bad side when you live in and depend upon a forest.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
Ulric, God of Winter and Wolves +6 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Eonir

I'm incredibly curious on how the Eonir version of him and the human one differ. and how those holes get squared.

and just generally how they practice their worship of him in elve style.
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The fact that it has been long enough for Eonir to write Ulric books and we *still* haven't talked to them boggles my mind. This is the first instance of elves adopting a human god that we know of, I want to know of it so badly, but it keeps losing every vote. It's unfair it is.
 
I do really wish we could properly clear out some social backlog stuff. Here's to hoping there aren't ten new big flashy things popping out of the woodworks for next turn...
 
Boney said:
Centaurs
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Should this be centigors? Or does it cover centaurs in general like zoats, bull centaurs, Lustrian centaurs, and dragon ogres?

Since the Eonir have subjects on individual beastman types, perhaps Canines for Chaos warhounds, as well as manticores, giants, cygors (though I believe they count as minotaurs), jabberslythes, and ghorgons?

Would the Eonir have Asur books on the Belthani? IIRC they contributed to the original waystone project.

Boney said:
Equines +3 - Extensive and Obscure Asur
Ungulates +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
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Since Ungulates postdates Equines, just pointing this out in case Equines is now an artefact. No worries if Equines are a big enough topic to need their own subject.
 
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Andres said:
Since Ungulates postdates Equines, just pointing this out in case Equines is now an artefact. No worries if Equines are a big enough topic to need their own subject.
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or possibly a name shift to equestrianism, if the topic is more about the riding of horses than the horses themselves
 
Talon TigerDino said:
The fact that it has been long enough for Eonir to write Ulric books and we *still* haven't talked to them boggles my mind. This is the first instance of elves adopting a human god that we know of, I want to know of it so badly, but it keeps losing every vote. It's unfair it is.
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Karak Eight Peaks was the first instance that we knew of halflings settling outside the Empire and the Moot in particular. We talked to them on our last year there, seven years later. Social actions without urgency or an opportunity cost do not get taken very readily.

Briefvoice said:
Still hilarious to me that he showed up for the doomed last stand again Waagh Birdmuncha, but it turned out Belegar had matters well in hand with a superweapon prepped, so he never needed to manifest as the White Dwarf.
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From his perspective, used to the superweapons of the Golden Age it still probably looked like someone strapped a precocious toddler into a ray gun she and some friends made out of scrap. Really impressive that it worked and all but... jeez.
 
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Andres said:
Since Ungulates postdates Equines, just pointing this out in case Equines is now an artefact. No worries if Equines are a big enough topic to need their own subject.
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I have to imagine these categories are based more on common sense (ungulates as in goats/sheep/bulls/deers/antelopes, equines as in horses and horse-like beings which include unicorns and pegasi) than actual taxonomic definitions.

Like, I only just now learned this from wikipedia, but did you guys know that Cetaceans are technically ungulates? Shit's wild.
 
DragonParadox said:
From his perspective, used to the superweapons of the Golden Age it still probably looked like someone strapped a precocious toddler into a ray gun she and some friends made out of scrap. Really impressive that it worked and all but... jeez
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And that kind of scrap ray gun superweapon is precisely the kind of thing Karaz Ankor needs right now, all the ancient Golden Age stuff is powered off the Waystone network and even with K8P, Karak Vlag, and Karag Dum reconnected the energy surplus is still very thin and most of that is going towards the Eyes of Grimnir. The Eye of Gazul meanwhile powers itself solely off ambient magic with no reliance on the Waystone network, it may be crude in comparison but in terms of resources-to-utility it is amazingly efficient.
 
Andres said:
Should this be centigors? Or does it cover centaurs in general like zoats, bull centaurs, Lustrian centaurs, and dragon ogres?
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Akshually by the established meaning of the participle 'gor', the term 'Centigor' could only be correctly applied to members of that species with large and distinct horns from a bovine, caprine, or ovine species, and those with underdeveloped, antelopine, or cervine horns needs must be referred to as 'Centiungors' or perhaps 'Centungors'. This leaves 'Centaurs' as a collective noun for both types, as well as any similar oddities that may arise.

(Not actually setting canon, just an invented taxonomic quibble I went with because it amused me.)

Andres said:
Since the Eonir have subjects on individual beastman types, perhaps Canines for Chaos warhounds, as well as manticores, giants, cygors (though I believe they count as minotaurs), jabberslythes, and ghorgons?
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The absence of those species from Eonir writings is deliberate.

Andres said:
Would the Eonir have Asur books on the Belthani? IIRC they contributed to the original waystone project.
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They contributed only after the Elves had evacuated and the Eonir had withdrawn to their forest.

Andres said:
Since Ungulates postdates Equines, just pointing this out in case Equines is now an artefact. No worries if Equines are a big enough topic to need their own subject.
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'Artiodactyl' would be more correct than 'ungulate' here, but I'm going more for at-a-glance understanding than complete accuracy.
 
At this point, I'm not sure if Boney is viewing the Library Infodump as the best way to explain all the miscellaneous errata he's had in his notes for years, or the WORST decision ever as he has to figure out every bit of lore that the Eonir may have ever put to paper.
 
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Silverking said:
At this point, I'm not sure if Boney is viewing the Library Infodump as the best way to explain all the miscellaneous errata he's had in his notes for years, or the WORST decision ever as he has to figure out every bit of lore that Eonir may have ever put to paper.
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It can't be every bit of lore, given that the Temples and the Grey Lords have quite a few bits and pieces.
 
[X] [DWARF] Negotiation to examine Phoenix Crown and its enchantments. (Pay with Runesmith Guild Boon)

[X] [DWARF] No purchase.
 
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