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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Blackout said:
Is Marienburg supposed to pretend like the Empire didn't launch an invasion against them and were only stopped because they were physically halted with military force, and the only reason they haven't tried again is that their position is not strong enough to do so?

You have people in this very thread bereaving Marienburg for not having made a treaty with the Empire to allow them to move troops through the middle of their capital, when the Empire has refused to do so much as ratify a treaty recognizing Marienburg's independence (WFRP2E Shades of the Empire pg.76), which is a pretty clear indicator that the Empire never intended to treat Marienburg as anything other than a breakaway province to be brought back into the fold as soon as feasible.
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Though "Marienburg refuses to let the Empire get its troops out to sea" is an issue, the much bigger and foundational one is "Marienburg took advantage of perhaps the most incompetent and corrupt Emperor in history to secede, and then decided to defend this position using the aid of a wealthy foreign power with a known history of colonialism and a history of not taking 'no' for an answer".

Built on top of this is "then they sabotaged most other port towns the Empire decided to make, which massively threatens the Empire's force projection and capacity to protect its coast from Norscans", "holy shit they're so intimidated by a canal on the other side of the continent that they hired a bunch of goons to be riverine pirates and also threatened a blockade" and "there was some very real suspicion that they could have caused the Skull River Ambush".

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Even if we agreed that Marienburg had the right to want to be free from the Empire because of its complicated history and that ideally if you're part of an Empire it should be something you do willingly and not forced to do... I could still never agree to the way they did it.

It also wouldn't matter if the original secessionists had done so out of an idealistic desire to be free from what many would legitimately perceive to be a disorganized mess of competing powers and superstition and xenophobia and whatever. Because in practice, Marienburg's actions (not just back then but also in the present) indicate that their lust for wealth is not merely for wanting to enrich themselves but to make sure others can't benefit to nearly the same extent they can.

It says a lot about them and the way that they do things that getting Ulthuan to back off and make their position more clear on them was perceived as something that literally everyone on the table would have jumped on and benefited from. This is the level of economic dickery Marienburg gets up to.
 
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I can't remember, is Sealord Aislinn's attack on Marienburg canon to the quest?

If so, then Ulthuan has objectively done more harm to Marienburg and Marienburgers than the Empire ever has. Marienburg doesn't seem to have a problem with Ulthuan, though. (Obviously this is where economic self-interest comes into play)
 
Blackout said:
In that case I assume that they themselves still use Westerland as a name? I can't imagine the people who live there would call themselves Wastelanders if it's just imperial propaganda.
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I think it probably also somewhat serves the purposes of the various marsh-dwellers to go "yup, total wasteland here, no point trying to extract any taxes, keep on focusing 100% of your attention on mercantilism, Marienburg Central Government." (This is also helped by the fact that trying to extract taxes out of marsh dwellers is genuinely really really hard, the people in marienburg are themselves quite looking to be convinced to put all their focus on marcantilism.)
 
Silver719 said:
My legalese is not up to the task of outlining this diplomatically.
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I could give it a try.

Something like:

--[] IX. The Signatories will establish and participate in a forum or body to facilitate the sharing of information regarding the Network and the Waystones themselves, as established in Clause VI of these Accords. This entity will in addition be tasked with keeping a record as accurate as possible of all the Nexuses in the Old World and its frontiers, as well as ascertaining and updating their status, with which all Signatories will be expected to cooperate as described in Clause III.

While modifying Clause 3 like this:

--[] III. All signatories to these accords will disclose to all others the approximate location of Nexuses within their lands, as well as the approximate location of all other Nexuses in the Old World and its frontiers whose existence they know or suspect about. They will also promptly communicate to the others should any of those nexuses be destroyed, damaged beyond their owner's ability to repair, or captured beyond their owner's ability to retake; or should they successfully rebuild, repair, retake or create altogether any nexus within the Old World and its frontiers.
 
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Mopman43 said:
I can't remember, is Sealord Aislinn's attack on Marienburg canon to the quest?

If so, then Ulthuan has objectively done more harm to Marienburg and Marienburgers than the Empire ever has. Marienburg doesn't seem to have a problem with Ulthuan, though. (Obviously this is where economic self-interest comes into play)
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It is, but it was before Marienburg's independence.
 
Boney said:
It is, but it was before Marienburg's independence.
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Oh I'm aware, in 2351 IC. (If the attack had happened after Marienburg's independence, Marienburg wouldn't be independent)

I was just making the argument that Ulthuan has done more damage to the city than the Empire ever has and Marienburg can still work with them fine.
 
Tasoli said:
What I have been trying to tell is that Marienburgs stated goals and actions they have taken don't align. They don't want a war yet seem to intent taunting and pissing it off the Empire up to starting a shadow war over a canal of all things.

Empire is at least consistent in its policies.

Rather than moral high ground I think Marienburg is being stupid. If they were going to war, go to war. If you want peace, make peace. None of this fafling about blockades and sabotages and then pretending that all you wanted was freedom when otherside responds.
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Parabola said:
Though "Marienburg refuses to let the Empire get its troops out to sea" is an issue, the much bigger and foundational one is "Marienburg took advantage of perhaps the most incompetent and corrupt Emperor in history to secede, and then decided to defend this position using the aid of a wealthy foreign power with a known history of colonialism and a history of not taking 'no' for an answer".

Built on top of this is "then they sabotaged most other port towns the Empire decided to make, which massively threatens the Empire's force projection and capacity to protect its coast from Norscans", "holy shit they're so intimidated by a canal on the other side of the continent that they hired a bunch of goons to be riverine pirates and also threatened a blockade" and "there was some very real suspicion that they could have caused the Skull River Ambush".

---
Even if we agreed that Marienburg had the right to want to be free from the Empire because of its complicated history and that ideally if you're part of an Empire it should be something you do willingly and not forced to do it... I could still never agree to the way they did it.

It also wouldn't matter if the original secessionists had done so out of an idealistic desire to be free from what many would legitimately perceive to be a disorganized mess of competing powers and superstition and xenophobia and whatever. Because in practice, Marienburg's actions (not just back then but also in the present) indicate that their lust for wealth is not merely for wanting to enrich themselves but to make sure others can't benefit to nearly the same extent they can.

It says a lot about them and the way that they do things that getting Ulthuan to back off and make their position more clear on them was perceived as something that literally everyone on the table would have jumped on and benefited from. This is the level of economic dickery Marienburg gets up to.
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So long as the Empire won't recognize Marienburg's independence, they have every reason to believe that sucking up to the Empire would only have the Empire use that position of strength to conquer Marienburg. That's plenty of motivation for Marienburg to try to strengthen themselves at the Empire's expense, and weaken the Empire's naval force projection capabilities.

I don't think that Marienburg has a moral high ground either, I simply don't think that tariffs, sabotage and threatening embargo are worse than a war of conquest.

Nor do I think that Marienburg's desire for independence trumps the Empire's revanchism, I just don't think that the Empire wanting reunification trumps Marienburg's secessionism either.
 
Boney said:
No, that sort of thing wouldn't be out of place for an important international treaty.
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Hmm, maybe a bird in each corner? One each for the whole family.

Ranald and Haletha are obvious, and I'm pretty sure Shallya will be very happy with anything that lowers the rate of mutations and such.

We could just say at that point why not include the whole family, but if it does turn out to be The Lady, well we have long intended to include her. Personally am hoping we reach out or hear from Brettonia soon.
 
Boney said:
Well, if he wants to get right down to business, you have no problem with that. "The Empire would be happy to hear that a canal was to be built between the Urskoy and Lynsk rivers," you reply. You'd been hesitant to ask for something that would handicap Kislev as Boris tried to restore it, and not entirely comfortable with asking for something personal. But a canal that would link the Urskoy and Lynsk rivers - and therefore allow traffic from the Empire's rivers to reach the Sea of Claws via Erengrad and be able to bypass Marienburg altogether - would be beneficial to Kislev as well as the Empire, and would hopefully bring the two peoples closer together.

You'd also sent an enquiry via the Grey Order to the offices of the Reiksmarshal and of the Sea Lord of the First Fleet, and both had bemusedly confirmed that yes, the Empire would be very happy to have a means of getting the First Fleet into the Sea of Claws without having to pass through Marienburg, even if it did involve travelling the length of the Talabec.

"One wide enough for Wolfships to pass through?" Boris asks shrewdly, and you nod. "Hmm. It would be good to have a river route from here to Praag and Erengrad. It would not have been the first priority, but it would serve to bring the land together more, make the Tzar a little less far away." He tilts his head as he thinks, his eyes roaming the walls. "It would have to be from the Mazhorod. There have been plans made for canals in the area - minor ones to bypass the shallow waters of the ford. That would provide a starting point to get together the expertise and equipment, then more manpower can be brought in to branch the greater canal off of it..." He looks to you again and nods. "It will be done. May it bring Kislev and the Empire closer together, as we were during the time of Alexis and Magnus."
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I'm happy with our choice in reward, it's something that helps both the Empire and Kislev.

Boney said:
"It would involve using rivers to transport the energies, and then spilling them out to be reabsorbed by nexuses at the mouth of rivers - in Kislev's case, Erengrad and Castle Alexandronov. The exact effect would depend on the energies in question, but considering the priority for Kislev would be removing the Chaos taint from Praag and Troll Country, it could be very bad for the affected places. It's possible we could refine the details to minimize that problem, but if we had Ulthuan's knowledge, we could build our additions directly into the existing network and not have any of those problems in the first place."
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Also happy with this choice to cooperate with Ulthuan, sure resources or other favors would've been nice but the knowledge about Waystones is far more valuable and rare.

Boney said:
"Ah," he says, giving her an evaluating look. "You must be the one responsible for keeping at bay the 'Sea Witch' that the Cothiquans speak of."

There's a collective wince from everyone at the table except Niedzwenka, whose smile only widens. "That is one of my greatest claims to notoriety," she says cheerfully.
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Niedzwenka has a reputation and she's happy about it.

Boney said:
Eltharion does not seem to possess the same brand of sneering arrogance for other races usually seen as typical of Elves, but he does carry himself with the bearing of a King. He treats the Tzar as an equal and the others as social inferiors whose skill makes you worthy of being listened to. But as the discussion goes on he treats Niedzwenka with more and more cautious respect. For a moment you thought he might genuinely fear her, until you realized the Shyish stirring in him is moving with purpose. Something no longer of this world is whispering to the Prince, and if you had to guess, you'd say it's letting him know exactly what he's sitting at a table with.
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Eltharion is really sensible, he respects people's positions and skills and knows to beware the Old Monster.

Boney said:
That, however, is just a sideshow to the main purpose of this meeting, and over several hours the bones of an agreement are hashed out. There is widespread agreement on the central point: that the Waystone Network is good, important, and should be bigger, and acknowledgement that no one party present can achieve that on their own. The problem is that everyone on the table is wary of that sentiment concluding with 'so you should give me all your magical secrets', not least of which because everyone at the table is open to the possibility of uncovering someone else's secrets.
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Happy to see that everyone can agree that the Waystone Network is a good thing.

Boney said:
This one was foundational for Ulthuan's agreement, and one that nobody was that interested in fighting against. Nobody at the table has any plans to invade Ulthuan and annex the Inner Sea, as far as you're aware. Putting the acknowledgement of the 'rightful and unburned' Phoenix Kings - that is to say, not Malekith - on paper might make future negotiations with Naggaroth more difficult, which might be another reason why Eltharion pushed for it.
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Yeah that's the cost of dealing with Ulthuan but it's worth it.

Boney said:
This one probably would have received more push-back from a more stereotypical example of an Asur. As it is, between the Karaz Ankor being a part of the discussion and that this entire meeting came about because there's new additions being made right now made the core premise fairly unassailable. That it implicitly waives Ulthuan's ancient colonial claims to the land in question is something that the humans of the Old World aren't all that fussed about, but could have big repercussions on relations between Ulthuan and Laurelorn.
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Yeah this is a big deal when it comes to acknowledging territory.

Boney said:
4. No signatory to these accords will threaten or perform any interference with the proper operation of the Waystone Network as a means of coercion or act of sabotage upon another signatory. Such an act is detrimental to the entire world and benefits only the forces of Chaos.
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Smart thing to get, stops Marienburg for being itself with the Waystones and prevents people from playing games with them.

Boney said:
And Albion, Hatalath says with a chuckle, which is shared by all those present (but also side-eyed by some).
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I hope we go to Albion one day because holy shit Hatalath is eluding to it so much and here he even straight up talks about it for the lols.
 
I mean, "got raided by sponsored pirates into non-viability" is less "sabotage" and more "low-simmer proxy war", I think? Maybe not even proxy, depending.

Anyway, if the canals stop that shit by making it a non-viable strategy, then maybe letting Marienburg sit in the corner and print money in peace is the right thing to do, but if they continue getting bucketloads of people get killed by Norscans and the like while also losing advantages that previously protected them from an invasion, then, uh.
 
Boney said:
This one is formed with nervous glances in the direction of Los Cabos. Should it come down to it, all those present would rather violate the territorial claims of an Estalian Petty King than let the entire continent slide into the Chaos Wastes.
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"Hey boss? You know that rock you knocked over last week"
"What? Oh that glowing thing standing in the way of my glorious gold filled place! What about that scrap"
"Well, we got some angry wizards from the Empire about it"
"That sounds mildly annoying, but nothing i can't handle"
"And some dwarves, all with glowing weapons"
"Hmm, okay, minor problem"
"And some of the Ulthuan elves. These looks very grumpy compared to most of them"
"Uhmmmm"
"And some other elves with tons of leaves in their head and some very sharp bows"
"I'm just gonna start packing my stuff"
"Finally, there is this group of really scary old ladies...They are allready talking to your grandmother sir'
"I'M OUT"
 
If you just want to conquer Marienburg because you believe it will strengthen the Empire in the long run, or you just like the Empire/dislike Marienburg, I disagree but I can see where you're coming from.

But I strenuously object to the notion of conquering Marienburg because it's "right" or because "they deserve it".

As for myself, I believe that a war between the Empire and Marienburg/Ulthuan will not benefit anyone and is likely to weaken the Forces of Order significantly.

I believe that with the two canals weakening Marienburg's monopoly, greater rapproachment with Ulthuan and the eradication of the Chaos cult that was most likely behind the worst of the tension-stoking between the two nations, Marienburg has largely been defanged, and matters should be left to cool off. The Empire has bigger things to be worrying about than Marienburg, and a diplomatic solution can be revisited later down the line once relations have had time to normalize. In my mind, ideally this would take the form of a treaty recognizing Marienburg's independence in exchange for free passage of naval forces, cooperation against Chaos incursions and reasonable limits on what tariffs they can impose, but other options can be explored depending on the political climate at the time, and even letting status quo stand indefinitely is in my mind preferable to starting a war (assuming of course that circumstances do not change radically from what I described).
 
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Phalfpipe said:
IRL, the Netherlands played the same games as Marienburg, also overplayed their hand , and got most of the country overrun by France and some of the German states , with crowds in the capital panicking so badly that they killed and ate Prime Minister De Witt.
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hey, Dutch here.
yeah, that happened. The Dutch People lost their mind, the Government was out of wits, and the Country was beyond salvation. Also, internal political tensions between the republicanist merchants and the monarchist merchants, along without tensions between merchant noble and commoner classes, while we flooded our own swamsp farms in order to keep out the French. Because if we can't have them, then the French certainly won't be allowed to have them.

Luckily, after that I believe it took until 2002 for a the next (high profile) political murder in peacetime, so I guess we learned from it? Still have a royal family in the House of Orange, even though there are strong suspicions that the Prince of Orange had a hand in the riot that led to that murder-by-crowd. As in: a military unit that was supposed to uphold order at that public square, and was known to be loyal to the Prince, deliberately did nothing to save De Witt. And several people known to be involved were later given praise by said Prince.

Apart from that, situation was different. The HRE was much less united then the Empire is currently. More importantly: the Rampjaar was a not really because the Netherlands overplayed it's hand by blocking the Rhine to Germany. Instead it was because Louis 14th decided that the Reik Rhine was the natural border of France, and what is now Belgium and southern Netherlands were thus also naturally French.
Secondly, the English King at the time was the Uncle of the Prince of Orange, and was annoyed by how much Parliament limited his power. So his goal was that afterwards the Prince of Orange would become a Sovereign Prince of a rump state, ending Dutch Republicanism and thus reducing the international appeal of anti-monarchism.
And for the 2 German States that invaded, I think it was mostly opportunism & hoping to annex some border regions.
Afterwards, Spain the German Holy Emperor, the Danes and some of the States within the HRE allied with the Dutch Republic.

So, if we want a direct Warhammer version? The Bretonians want to expand their borders to along the Reik, the Phoenix King allies with them to replace the Directorate with his nephew in order to hopefully strenghten his position relative to the Grand Princes of the 10 Kingdoms, and Nordland joins in order to get some territory in the North. But then some Norse tribes ally with Estonia, Reikland and Hochland in order to kick the Bretionians out again, after Marienburg had the luck to have their best admiral in 300 years be leading their fleets at just that moment, and he stalled the combined Bretionian-Asur fleets in 3 engagements before defeating both the Bretionian and High Elf navies.

Man, writing it out like Warhammer equivalant, the Netherlands surviving the Rampjaar as well as they did is pretty crazy

Of course
 
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ArcanaVitae said:
I'm happy with our choice in reward, it's something that helps both the Empire and Kislev.
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It could potentially also help out the Karaz Ankor, since this way it would be much easier for forces from Kadrin, Zhufbar, etc, to reach Vlag if/when the next Everchosen comes down from the north. Which wasn't really mentioned in the update, but if it occurs to Mathilde to mention it (or he thinks of it on his own), Boris could likely get some dwarf expertise for his canal-project by playing on that angle.
 
Oh, this reminds me: @Boney since the section following the seventh article mention people 'nervous glances in the direction of Los Cabos', does this mean general speculation from the Project members? Or does it mean that it was actually brought up in the talks and Eltharion confirmed Los Cabos is the (or an) exit point for the Old World?
 
Boris is very relived that his gamble that one favor to Mathilde would be better than a civil war paid off so well. There was a lot of room for us to ask a favor that would have been worse for Kislev while clearing that bar.



Obviously we get Ranald on by claiming that Verena and Hoeth are the same God, so one of them can be replaced by Ranald or Loec. This will be well regarded and start 0 theological slap fights:V

Boney said:
7. In times of need, and with the consent of the signatories involved, there may be military interventions performed by some or all signatories to restore, defend, or expand the Waystone Network throughout the Old World and its frontiers.
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Brettonia and the Asrai get real nervous all of a sudden
 
I'd insert a line something like, the signatories are signing on behalf of their nations and the people therein. Basically, a way to circumvent the various provinces in the Empire, the petty kingdoms on Ulthaun, and even though they would never because of the stuborn, the various holds of the Karaz a Kor from pulling a: we never signed it screw you.
 
There's something I just noticed. How does Tor Lithanel connect to the Waystone Network? On my map it is represented by the 19>18 connection.

I just realized that wasn't ever actually confirmed to exist. Cadaeth just nodded in a vague sense, similar to her nodding at Se-Athil. Fort Solace was created after the Great War against Chaos. If Tor Lithanel connects to it, then it was connected after the nexus was raised. It was not some ancient infrastructure inherited from Ulthuan.

But where did it connect beforehand? I imagine that before it sunk, it connected to Athel Toralien. Probably to the Brass Keep too. Maybe it connected to the Tower of Se-Athil, which connected to Marienburg? That's the only thing that makes sense to me.

We're going to get the nexuses of Laurelorn clarified soon, but everything about it is still weird. I want to investigate the Laurelorn nexuses too now. >_>
 
It's worth noting that so far this quest it certainly seems like the most hostile thing the Empire has done recently to Marienberg is... getting a canal dug towards them by a third party.

In response Marienberg threatened a blockade that would fuck over the Empire's ability to protect itself. Similar (and lesser) blockades have frequently historically been considered acts of war or at least legitimate cassus belli.

If Marienberg is so worried about war with the Empire, maybe they shouldn't be threatening to start one?
 
i like how the dicussion on the very importand multinational and multidiciplinary diplomatic document took a backseat to debate just how much we should hate marienburg and get back a them.
 
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