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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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guyfromtheplace1 said:
And find that the only practical thing to power using that generator at the current level of lack of knowledge is lighting systems like the one we studied off the Skaven.
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And in the future some mad genius Celestial might figure out how to use Lightning Bolt to power a flywheel battery for a mill, or for a low tech Doomwheel. (Get a big flywheel going fast, then send it rolling at enemy lines)
 
adaer said:
And in the future some mad genius Celestial might figure out how to use Lightning Bolt to power a flywheel battery for a mill, or for a low tech Doomwheel. (Get a big flywheel going fast, then send it rolling at enemy lines)
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So, generators and inefficient motors are the same technology, so that's a start, and heating elements are intuitive.
So in hindsight the stolen lightbulb is actually an amazing leg up, as it's one of the hardest things to get the right formulation for by rote experimentation.
Never mind, I reread that experiment, the lightbulb is borderline useless.

You're still liable to see something that looks more electricpunk than electric age for a century or two after the first generator is invented.
Because DC power doesn't transmit on long cables without the resistance becoming too much of a problem, and AC power requires a mathematical understanding of synchronization before you can have more than a single generator on a line without one trying to run all the others as motors(and possibly the invention of three phase power, to slow synchronization down enough that someone can match generator wavelengths by hand when hooking in new generators).

What this means is that early electrification must by necessity use very small local networks.
So an expensive building that pays for electrification may have multiple networks, each run by either DC generators local to what they're powering, or AC generators cut off from every other circuit.
And similarly, electrifying a warship will involve multiple circuits on separate networks.
 
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guyfromtheplace1 said:
I sort of expect that if the lodestone comparison was made and is actually correct, one of the first things that would have been tried is the old trick of rubbing a magnet back and forth on something to make it a temporary magnet.
If that find that makes melted waystone gold temporarily acquire the magical properties of unmelted waystone gold, that in itself will be a very interesting scientific finding for this era, discovering that nonmagnetic objects may have the properties of magnets without projecting a noticeable magnetic pull.
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I'm pretty sure that was Johann's magnetoreceptive magesight at work. He was observing the two different metals and saw that one 'looked' less magnetic (though neither material was actually magnetic).
 
ReImagined said:
I'm pretty sure that was Johann's magnetoreceptive magesight at work. He was observing the two different metals and saw that one 'looked' less magnetic (though neither material was actually magnetic).
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The actual sight based comparison of it to a lodestone isn't the only thing I'm going off of.

Permanent magnets also permanently lose their magnetism after having been melted, or heated beyond a certain point, supposedly because the movement of the atoms causes a misalignment of the charges of particles in the object so they're no longer single-axis.

The coincidence of description and coincidence of expected effect really does make me think that magnetic alignment is probably the reason for the difference.
 
It might be a good idea to go out of our way to convince the Ar-Ulric to formally give Laurelorn a free hand in handling Ulrican affairs there.

Consider: being elves, the Laurelorn Ulricans are not likely to give any attention to the human/Teutogen/male supremacist elements - they will find their own interpretation of Ulric and see how He fits in the Elven mindset. They won't ask for permission anyway - why would they? To them, gods are not something with just one spokesman.

And on the human side, Middenland Ulricans might slowly grow to resent Laurelorn for doing just that without being explicitly given permission. The Ar-Ulric may understand the value of discretion and looking. The other way to save face publicly, but a future Ar-Ulric may feel differently.

As such, it may be better to eliminate this problem now rather than later. Easier, at least, than all the other problems, which are a lot older.
 
guyfromtheplace1 said:
The actual sight based comparison of it to a lodestone isn't the only thing I'm going off of.

Permanent magnets also permanently lose their magnetism after having been melted, or heated beyond a certain point, supposedly because the movement of the atoms causes a misalignment of the charges of particles in the object so they're no longer single-axis.

The coincidence of description and coincidence of expected effect really does make me think that magnetic alignment is probably the reason for the difference.
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To be clear, I'm not disagreeing on magnetic properties being relevant, just the bit where you temporarily magnetize waystone gold, because even though the pyramidion had different magnetic properties to the ingots, it wasn't magnetic itself, so it seems odd that they'd try to magnetize it.
 
HeWhoLurks said:
Being given explicit exemption from a pretty major rule will generate resentment against them.
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adaer said:
It also sets the sort of precedent for self-governance that no absolute authority will ever create willingly.
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Are you guys talking about trying to release Middenheim's Ulricans from the Vow of Celibacy, or the Ar-Ulric saying that Laurelorn has a free hand in Ulrican matters? Because I feel like your posts could be interpreted in either way.
 
Blackout said:
Almost certainly, considering it was instituted as a check on the Ar-Ulric's power, and the Cult at large hates having to follow the vows.

The problem is convincing everyone else to just let them remove it and improve their position. The vows were part of a deal between the Elector-Counts of Middenheim and the Ar-Ulric, they can't just unilaterally go back on it. And what does Todbringer stand to gain from agreeing to this? All he's getting is a threat to his own position in Middenheim.
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I mean, the Cult absolutely can just go "lol, actually we've changed our minds". If Todbringer cares about it he'll retaliate in some way, and if the Cult thinks that whatever those consequences are aren't important enough to care about they can ignore them.

It's not like this is a deal enforced by law, it's enforced by the threat of the EC of Middenheim using military force. If the Cult doesn't believe he has the force, or thinks he won't use it, they can just change things.

Aura said:
Because it means that no married man can ever aspire to the position of Ar-Ulric, making it trivial to ensure that his intended successor is the only potential Ar-Ulric high enough in the heirarchy to succeed him?
(Which is also why middenland would avoid agreeing on this point, of course).
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This is technically already the case. Like, the Ar-Ulric doesn't have the only say in who succeeds him, but can probably have a favoured choice that they stack the deck for. Much like the Pope IRL. The vow of celibacy doesn't really change this, it only prevents that successor being the Ar-Ulrics kid, and therefore prevents the creation of a family dynasty that would egin to extend it's power outside of the Cult.
 
Arguably, the Ar-Ulric has already proclaimed that one can serve Ulric without serving the mainstream cult:

Boney said:
"I wish to speak first of those that have left the pack," he says at last, turning to look at the Sacred Flame.

You mirror his turning, though you keep looking sideways at him. "I cannot speak for them, but I have worked with them and spoken with their leader."

"He always was headstrong," he grumbles. "But I might have done similar, when I was his age. Tell him that it is not in doubt that he and his continue to serve Ulric."

Externally, you nod in assent, and murmur "I will pass on your words." Internally, your mind whirs. This is far too mild a response to someone flirting with schism. No matter his theological beliefs, the politician in him must recognize the precedent he's failing to punish here, that he's acknowledging that one can serve Ulric while splitting off from the Cult of Ulric.
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HeWhoLurks said:
The latter, at least on my end.
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The thing here is that the Ar-Ulric has no power whatsoever over Laurelorn and can't really stop them from worshiping Ulric differently. What's he going to do? Send an entire army against a forest that has been carefully cultivated over millennia to repel any invaders? A place so well-defended that a Dwarven Throng from the Golden Age wasn't able to come back from? He might as well send a politely-worded letter, that might have more of an effect.

Already the Ar-Ulric has the credit for converting the Eonir to Ulrican worship, so he's already on shaky ground regarding how Ulric is a human god worshiped by the Teutogens. And the Vow of Celibacy was something imposed on the Cult by Middenheim's ruler in the past to prevent a rival dynasty springing up - Middenheim cannot enforce this on them, wouldn't do so if it could because it'd risk their alliance with them, and has no reason to do so even if they were already firm allies, since the Eonir have zero chance of coming over and deciding they want to rule over human lands.

The resentment isn't going to be toward the Eonir - the update clearly states that the issue is that if the Ar-Ulric were to do it, it'd aggravate the people that already disagree with including elves in Ulric's worship. That's what we should really be concerned with... But even right now a big part of the conflict is that the wider Cult of Ulric doesn't want their worship of Ulric being dominated by Teutogen supremacists, or limited only to men. If the Ar-Ulric takes this risk, there's a chance he'll be able to take some of the wind out of Nordland's sails. Some groups that may have been inclined toward Nordland might go back to being on the fence.

And, again, it'd nip a problem in the bud. We can't expect a future Ar-Ulric will necessarily be that well-inclined toward the Eonir. Establishing a precedent right now that the Eonir are to be given a free hand on how to do things would go a long way to preventing further tensions which may be a lot harder to throw off later.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
This is technically already the case. Like, the Ar-Ulric doesn't have the only say in who succeeds him, but can probably have a favoured choice that they stack the deck for. Much like the Pope IRL. The vow of celibacy doesn't really change this, it only prevents that successor being the Ar-Ulrics kid, and therefore prevents the creation of a family dynasty that would egin to extend it's power outside of the Cult.
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Sure, but letting the Ar-Ulric promote to the positions which 'qualify' one to be Ar-Ulric a bunch of married people and the designated successor makes the deck much easier to stack then it might otherwise be- and it's no like their vows of celibacy stopped the Medicis or the current clan dominating the Ulrican Church.
 
It's kinda funny in a way, because the Ar-Ulric jumped on the chance to win glory for the cult by converting Laurelorn to Ulric, but it's put him in a position where he has to choose between weakening his authority and the authority of the faction that leads the cult, or risk what's probably the largest schism in old world history.

... We should start investing in Baroque architecture.
 
It occurs to me that the religious disarray going on in the Ulrican faith is reminiscent of the thing that, in WHFRPG canon, happens about thirty years from now among the Sigmarites. We're getting a structural critique of one of the Empire's major faiths with echoes of the Protestant Reformation, though in this case there isn't a particular Martin Luther figure that we're aware of.

I think it's neat how Boney is providing the vibes of one of the setting elements from the RPG's "modern" day without simply recycling it or moving it up. It's a clever trick for being able to make use of the preexisting worldbuilding despite the vastly divergent timeline, rather than having to do everything from scratch.
 
Aura said:
Sure, but letting the Ar-Ulric promote to the positions which 'qualify' one to be Ar-Ulric a bunch of married people and the designated successor makes the deck much easier to stack then it might otherwise be- and it's no like their vows of celibacy stopped the Medicis or the current clan dominating the Ulrican Church.
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AFAIK, there aren't positional requirements to be the Ar-Ulric. Anyone can get the job. The only information we have about the way the role is decided comes from the 4th edition RPG AFAIK, and in that it's a whole bunch of High Priests voting. And while they might be likely to elect one of their own, if the Ar-Ulric were to somehow finangle it so that only his chosen successor was unmarried out of all of them (which is already basically impossible) then all that would happen is they'd start putting forward proxies. There's no real way to control a vote like that, especially when it happens once you're dead.

I mean, yes and no. The point of the celibacy vows isn't to prevent someone controlling the Cult, it's to prevent someone who already does that growing their power. And yes, the Medicis and a number of other families gained great power, backed by one of their own who was the Pope, but the difference there is that the order is reversed. They had great power and leveraged that to become Pope, whereas the worry of the ECs of Middenland was that someone who was the Ar-Ulric would start a dynasty. And while the Ar-Ulric can effectively have kids still, it gives the EC a tool with which to move against the Ar-Ulric if necessary. The EC can just go "look, he broke his vows of celibacy, he's not fit to be Ar-Ulric, arrest him". And if he does keep the vows, it stops him founding a dynasty.
 
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Boney: Does a huge amount of worldbuilding and research to set up a hard problem spanning across multiple factions with crosscutting religious and political commitments, divided loyalties, and potentially serious consequences for our moonshot research project.

The thread: Ew, politics. Let's not.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
It's a bit hard to do the "95 theses" thing when a) Ulricans can't read and b) there's no printing press to allow the Church to accidentally distribute it across the continent.
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Right; my point was that the canonical Sigmarite religious kerfuffle is due to a mashup of Martin Luther and Jan Hus named Luthor Huss, who is crusading against corruption and venality in the church and causing a lot of headaches for people in authority. Boney isn't just doing the same thing over.
 
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