Those strategists and tacticians will not be as good as Gwen. Having the strategist and diviner be the same person means that those divinations can be better targeted, and the OODA-loop involving them wildly faster.
You will notice that we lost the ascalon delegation because Vita did not react fast enough to the DEldar raid - she could have gotten ahead of it to frame herself as somebody who can help, or started running, but instead was the last to act and so everyone sent there was killed.
Sometimes, it does not matter if you can see more if it takes you longer to act on it, and a strategist taking advice from Gwen will never be able to act as fast on what Gwen sees as Gwen acting as a strategist herself will.
I think if we were to redo Ascalon with a team of strategists and diplomats, we'd have been significantly more successful even without precognition. Adding that in would probably more-or-less guarantee success even if our precog isn't also our chief strategist but is just advising the strategists and diplomats.
I don't foresee the delay or decreased effectiveness of needing the diviner to talk to people as being significant to overwrite the possibility of almost certainly never having to worry about crit-failing a single crucial roll in any turn going forward.
I don't think this will take less effort to research, build and raise.
It has taken us 32 turns to even start on the AI-tech tree and that assumes that a plan with that research wins this turn.
Don't hold your breath for your man of iron anytime soon.
With humans, we know that they can do a lot of harm. More harm than the Velkar are capable off, because the Velkar, regardless of psychology, don't have the infrastructure to do harm.
I don't demand perfection from the Vellkar. If Victan concludes "they're about as potentially dangerous and morally upstanding as humans" that's entirely sufficient for me.
If the problem is that we know basically nothing about the vellkar beyond what we've peeled out of old and incredibly xenophobic records in addition to the... one time we saw some in person and the maybe three sentences we've exchanged over comms...
I think whatever the Imperial records say about the Vellkar can safely be discarded as nonsense. But yeah, I'd like to know more about what they're actually like.
I think whatever the Imperial records say about the Vellkar can safely be discarded as nonsense. But yeah, I'd like to know more about what they're actually like.
I don't demand perfection from the Vellkar. If Victan concludes "they're about as potentially dangerous and morally upstanding as humans" that's entirely sufficient for me.
Just what threat do you think you're actually avoiding here?
Your logic doesn't make sense. If we wanted to avoid having our tech fall in enemy hands, we should not give it to anyone in the Denva system, given that chaos can just attack and steal it.
If you believe the Denva system too fortified for Chaos to just invade and take over again, then the literal stone age civ isn't going to be able to do much about it either.
Your focus on the idea of biological evil continiously ignores physical realities, which is that the Vellkar aren't a threat even if they wanted to be.
I think if we were to redo Ascalon with a team of strategists and diplomats, we'd have been significantly more successful even without precognition. Adding that in would probably more-or-less guarantee success even if our precog isn't also our chief strategist but is just advising the strategists and diplomats.
I don't foresee the delay or decreased effectiveness of needing the diviner to talk to people as being significant to overwrite the possibility of almost certainly never having to worry about crit-failing a single crucial roll in any turn going forward.
She rolls at a malus so actually we still do have to worry about crit fails going forward because she can roll negative numbers.
Meanwhile, a bad military roll doesn't have to be a crypt fail in order to do horrible damage to us and our goals. They are simply far more dangerous than almost any research roll we will ever make.
A strategist diviner can do things that a strategist and a diviner working together cannot. This isn't speculation. If it were any other way, she would synergize with our other crew, but instead that just causes diminishing returns.
I want a commander who can do best of two rolls with a signifucant positive modifier - to become as hard to fail at military action as us being a man of iron would have been.
This fear of natural 1s does not compare as a priority.
I think entering diplomacy with a plan for what we are going to do is a mistake. I would rather set aside a budget for effort and BP to negotiate with and decide what to spend those on in the moment.
Just what problem would having Victan investigate the Vellkar before approving any tech-transfer cause, in your opinion?
We still don't know all that much about the Vellkar. And learning more about any alien species we want to cooperate with before committing ourselves seems like an excellent and necessary habit to get into.
Heck, it's entirely possible that Victan's final report will conclude that the Vellkar would be an excellent influence on any human society they'd become part of, and that he has approved all proposed tech-transfers and recommends seeking a full societal merger. That too would be invaluable information.
I'm far from opposed to seeking cooperation with friendly alien species. It's the inherent naivety in assuming any alien species can be assumed to be and remain friendly just because we've had a handful of positive interactions with them that I'm opposed to. We need to try and actually understand those people, not just anthropomorphize them and then make assumptions based on that fallacy.
I more meant that there will be multiple ships to attack. And at current going rates 10k bots cost 900 to 1900 BP. That's not an insignificant fraction of the cost of the whole ship.
The tech to make juvinate? We gave them the facilities we left behind and it let them make a trickle, but I am talking giving them the tech to make more juvinate production facilities.
Sure, worldwide unlimited lifespans will be an upheaval, but that's why I think it may be best to do it now when things are already in upheaval. Their society is in the middle of being redefined so upsetting it's definitions is less harmful right this moment.
[ ] Plan: Working On Some Steel Feelings, v3.0
-[] Diplomacy:
--[] (Boon) Stellar Ascendancy-Vellkar Relations: Propose a series of conferences to be held between Denva and the Vellkar, one per year.
---Year 1: Establishing basic standardized communications, language, protocols, etc that both sides can agree to. Acknowledge the Vellkar's sovereignty over their homeworld and orbital space (up to 10 light seconds distance from upper edge of Primus' atmosphere).
---Year 2: Set up the necessary legal framework to ensure they can't be conquered and exploited by elements within Denvan civilization.
---Year 3: Engage in a cultural exchange program of sorts, with both parties sending documents, providing tours, or both in order to learn more about the Vellkar (and Denvans to them) as a species, culture, and as individuals.
---Year 4: Seek mutual defense against hostile third parties. Open trade relations to enhance prosperity and standards of living for both sides. Offer Denvan aid in building large-scale civilian infrastructure on Primus (housing, maglev/mass transit, power generation, medical, etc), if the Vellkar are lacking and/or need aid in any particular category.
---Year 5: Assuming no red flags about the Vellkar up to this point, Vita can give them a starting package for their own independent production: Manned Manufactory blueprints, Manufactory OMC, etc. Offer to help share medical knowledge with them. The Denvans may offer or trade technologies as well during this conference, if they wish.
---Stretch Goal (Year 5): Get basing and resource extraction and refining rights for yourself and the Cogitaire on Denva Primus (when we're not around the Cogitaire would use the base and benefit from some of the mined and refined material). Offer our services in refining the superconductive material for the Vellkar for free (reserving 10% of our refining capacity for their use permanently). We also offer, if this occurs, any unused additional time on our refinery to the Vellkar if they want (like watermills or windmills in medieval times). Put all non-military tech you gave the Stellar Ascendency on the table to secure this, if possible.
-[] Construction (8,820 + 1,500 (Voidforge) + 1,000 (Repair Bay) = 11,320 BP)
--[] (Boon) Build: Denva Void Warfare Academy (an Orbital University sized for 50,000 students) around in one of Denva Secundus' Lagrange points. (6330BP, 200CP (See Notes below))
--[] Spark Refits:
---[] Cramming Refit (5,600 x 0.9 = 5,040, 4/5 Modules opened up, depending on how that .8 of a slot rounds)
---[] Reduce Oubliette size to 1 Module (+2 Modules), Shield reduced from 540 to 270 (135 x 2 from the Machine Spirit Integrated versions)
---[] Replace Technological Research Lab with Advanced Technological Research Lab (750 BP, -2 net Slots)
---[] 2x Juvenat Vats (-750 BP, -2 Slots)
-[] Research x2 (400 + 136 (Anexa + 60 Cogitare Staff) = 545 RP)
--[] Blueprint: Advanced Technological Research Lab (-20 Cogitare, 25 RP)
--[] Improved Organic-Machine control (75 RP)
--[] Medium Defense Platforms (50 RP)
--[] Miniaturized antigrav (50 RP)
--[] Does in vitro have something to do with wine? (100 RP)
--[] Improved Engine Designs (100 RP)
--[] Improved Large-Scale Machine Spirits (100 RP, Anexa Assists) 500
--[] Overflow: Intelligence Coding (190/400RP + 45 remaining RP = 235/400)
-[][Free] Turn over all completed research from this turn to the Stellar Ascendency.
-[] Anexa active Action: Research - Improved Large-Scale Machine Spirits
-[] Victan: active action: (Boon) Stellar Ascendancy-Vellkar Relations
-[] Cia: Passive Psyker improvement
-[] Gwendolyn: Passive learning action
[] [Gwendolyn] Strategist
- Use records from the Dark Age of technology on potential tips on building a more efficient academy, but do also take advice from Denva's advisors if they need anything specifically.
- Reasoning: Not only does it have to educate the Ascendancy's future generations of military students, it has to protect them and hide them. Denva does not a repeat of what happened when the Chaos ship wiped out all of their orbital infrastructure and trained personnel.
- Internal Features: Designed with education and military training in mind, a University Campus in space with military flavor. 1/3 is Voidship officers, 1/3 is fighter and bomber pilot training, 1/3 is dedicated to Void Marine training.
- Includes: various Simulation Chambers (all), Zero G Training (all), Zero G Combat Training (Marines), Counter-Boarding Training (Officer/Marines, Marines is more intense)
By the God-Emperor, she's a beaut, isn't she? Five kilometres long if a metre, clad in adamantium 10 metres thick, and a statue of Celestine herself on the prow. She'll cut a swath through the Koronus Expanse, she will.Yard-master Hale, launching the first Ambition-class Cruiser A cruiser is a...
warhammer40k.fandom.com
"Light cruisers and heavy cruisers are medium-sized Imperial warships, ranging in general terms between 4 and 6 kilometres in length and with an on-board complement of crew ranging into the tens of thousands."
Thus, a 5km space station capable of teaching up to 50k + crew is possible. Void warship mechanics say Light Cruiser is 1000BP, so we'll go with considering this thing isn't intended to move, simplifying things.
Chassis:
- Installation Size: x3 Light Cruiser (3000BP) + Vertical Core (500BP)
- Description: 3 Light Cruisers joined to a central vertical core, the Light Cruisers in the shape of a Y. Each lobe is a separate school.
- Armor: Medium (200BP)
- Shields: Tuned, Medium (300)
Subtotal: 4000BP
EDIT: Added something resembling a cost profile for the Void Warfare Academy, using existing voidship mechanics as best as I could. I only did BP/CP price, not using any of the cramming mechanics (justification is that there's no engines, so design has enough freed up space that its not an issue). I probably got something wrong, please let me know what so I can try and tinker with it.
1) The investigation is mechanically ignored, in which case it was just pointless planbloat, text that didn't need to be written because the QM is not malicious.
2) The investigation is not mechanically ignored, in which case it's a waste of resources that could have been better spent on other matters, and set a negative tone for future relationships.
I'm far from opposed to seeking cooperation with friendly alien species. It's the inherent naivety in assuming an alien species can be assumed to be and remain friendly just because we've had a handful of positive interactions with them that I'm opposed to. We need to try and actually understand those people, not just make assumptions.
(Like, don't ignore that. High chance of perils of the warp on a roll that carries a -10 malus is a bad deal. We could be looking at a 20-30% chance of major damage each turn, especially when you take into account that the passive action also carries it's own seperate risk of perils of the warp).
Perils of the warp is a research pinata to introduce Vita to entirely weird and bizarre repeatable warp phenomena.
I see it is a good thing to repeatedly proc perils of the warp because there is some actually quite interesting things that can come out of it if you've got a Dark Age of Technology AI which loves researching weird shit.
Perils of the warp is a research pinata to introduce Vita to entirely weird and bizarre repeatable warp phenomena.
I see it is a good think to repeatedly proc perils of the warp because there is some actually quite interesting things that can come out of it if you've got a Dark Age of Technology AI which loves researching weird shit.
When it comes to Velkar diplomacy there is one major issue to any 'investigation' action. Assuming we want to take any kind of decision after investigating, to suggest one course of action or another that decision would have to be taken when we decide things normally, that is next turn, using another AP. Personally I do not think the Velkar are worth 2 AP. I am perfectly content to throw a diplo action and Vitcan at the problem and say 'do when you can to smooth over relations and attain whaterver the two parties think is most advantageous'. These people are all adults and we can assume some level of goodwill here.
And since the most variability is in military rolls, where we have no mitigants at all, that's where it should be!
Here are the chances Gwen can improve a research roll with Anexa assigned: Not how much she improves it by, just whether or not she improves it at all.
Scenario
1.1
1.2
2.1
2.2
3.1
3.2
3.3
Vita rolls
Too high to beat: 41%
←cont.
>2: 58%
←cont.
nat 1: 1%
←cont.
←cont.
Gwen Rolls
0.00%
41.00%
29.00%
29.00%
0.89%
0.10%
0.01%
Outcome
Improve
Doesn't
Improves
Doesn't
Improves
Doesn't
Double Nat 1
Gwen Does not improve:
70.11%
Gwen improves:
29.89%
30%. She has about a 30% chance.
Strategist Gwen has a 100% chance of improving military rolls - and I haven't even really gotten in to the narrative factors that come from her being a strategist diviner that a strategist taking advice from a diviner just will not have.
Strategist-diviner is an absolutely incredible opportunity we should not miss. Generalist seer otoh is a poor fit for our existing build.
Yes. When you put her on our best roll and restrict her to only one roll guarded. I don't have the time to produce better stats right now, or maybe even today, but I'll get back to you.
I believe there is a tiny, tiny, barely worth mentioning chance the Vellkar could indeed be "genetically evil" - or more accurately, genetically predisposed to behaviors we would find evil or dangerous to us. I don't find this likely, it contradicts what we've seen of them so far. But the fact is that we haven't seen a lot of them yet, so it doesn't hurt to have Victan spend a year or two looking at their society and checking.
You recall my very first post on the issue, that aliens should not be looked at as if they were just different human cultures or ethnicities? Because when we're dealing with members of the same species (or Star Trek style forehead aliens) I totally agree that evil is not genes, chaos is not genes, tyranny is not genes.
But the same is not necessarily true when dealing with other species. A tiger is in fact genetically predisposed to kill and eat you, if you're more or less prey-shaped and behaving like prey.
I see absolutely no reason why an intelligent alien species couldn't have evolved to be genetically predisposed towards behaviors we would identify as evil. I also see absolutely no reason why they couldn't have evolved to be much nicer people than humans.
But we won't know until we check. And every new alien species is potentially different from the last.
Xenophobia evolved because if encountering something foreign in the wilds, the consequences of incorrectly assuming it's friendly are usually much deadlier than the consequences of incorrectly assuming it's a threat.
Within the context of human civilization, that instinct almost always leads us astray if we listen to it. Within the context of running into an unknown animal of sufficient size and physical capability somewhere in the wilds, it's absolutely the correct response.
When dealing with intelligent aliens whose exact nature is as of yet unknown, we shouldn't trust the xenophobic instinct. But neither should we automatically assume there is no threat. Aliens aren't human, the assumptions we can usually rely on when interacting with humans do not necessarily apply here.
The solution is to employ reason, be cautious but not aggressive, and gather information until the unknown becomes a known.
With the Vellkar we're already reasonably close to that point, but I'd like to dot the i's and cross the t's.
Firstly: imagining behaviour to be genetically determined in sapients is a questionable position at best.
Secondly: if you admit yourself that the possibility is minimal, subjecting a sapient species to years of wait and insulting scrutiny for it is again, at best questionable.
Thirdly: 19th century europeans didn't know about genetics. They only thought of those different from them as lesser and dangerous. Their problem was not that they were factually wrong about who those people were. Their problem was that mistreating people is wrong.
Fourthly: what you are doing is giving in to xenophobic instinct. We should not treat as suspect those who haven't given us reason to suspect them. We should not treat as inferiors those we know to be sapient.
And then you have underutilised the compartment. If it's not going to contain a bunch of bots, what's it going to do? 1k bots will barely make at difference. At that point, best to just get more point defence and trust the normal garrison.
Eh, @Prime 2.0 said it best on the diplomacy thing. In the end of the day is not our clowns not circus.
Let yhe humans and velkar deal with it when they deal with it.
I particularly don't feel they are a trap because they aren't a maluses of character selection. Hell stylistically they would fit on the option of say "fuck humans" and go the full xeno route istead.
Yes. When you put her on our best roll and restrict her to only one roll guarded. I don't have the time to produce better stats right now, or maybe even today, but I'll get back to you.
And then you have underutilised the compartment. If it's not going to contain a bunch of bots, what's it going to do? 1k bots will barely make at difference. At that point, best to just get more point defence and trust the normal garrison.
Yes, you have underutilized the compartment that costs only 25 BP. You can't trade it for point defense, point defense costs twice as much.
I don't think the Spark lost 1k bots to any one enemy boarding, ever. Also, Spark is like 10x bigger (actually only 6x) than a light cruiser with at most 10k bots. 1k bots makes all of the difference that I am looking for.
When it comes to Velkar diplomacy there is one major issue to any 'investigation' action. Assuming we want to take any kind of decision after investigating, to suggest one course of action or another that decision would have to be taken when we decide things normally, that is next turn, using another AP. Personally I do not think the Velkar are worth 2 AP. I am perfectly content to throw a diplo action and Vitcan at the problem and say 'do when you can to smooth over relations and attain whaterver the two parties think is most advantageous'. These people are all adults and we can assume some level of goodwill here.
Well then I would suggest not having a psyker crew because that is the basics of how they level.
I think what's being discussed here is whether we give the Velkar tech ourselves or specify in the action that we will first send
Victan off into the planet like some kind of Space Henry Morton Stanley so he can check whether they are worthy of moral consideration.
Eh, @Prime 2.0 said it best on the diplomacy thing. In the end of the day is not our clowns not circus.
Let yhe humans and velkar deal with it when they deal with it.
I particularly don't feel they are a trap because they aren't a maluses of character selection. Hell stylistically they would fit on the option of say "fuck humans" and go the full xeno route istead.
We spent actions to help Calderath. We spent actions to help Vorthryn. Heck, we tried to see if we could do something with the battle nuns. Then it's the xenos's turn and it's "not our clown"? With all due respect, I sternly disagree.
Yes, you have underutilized the compartment that costs only 25 BP. You can't trade it for point defense, point defense costs twice as much.
I don't think the Spark lost 1k bots to any one enemy boarding, ever. Also, Spark is like 10x bigger (actually only 6x) than a light cruiser with at most 10k bots. 1k bots makes all of the difference that I am looking for.
We spent actions to help Calderath. We spent actions to help Vorthryn. Heck, we tried to see if we could do something with the battle nuns. Then it's the xenos's turn and it's "not our clown"? With all due respect, I sternly disagree.
Yes and? The point was make this is not our decision to make. Our actions could help them but we are in the buisnnes of robbing sovering parties their choice. We could had made Deva our direct subordinates but chose not to so we honor it now.
