Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

[Insult Everyone!]

We're a secretive Explorator who's senior enough to pay an obscene price for Anexa and is sufficiently convinced that there's an STC here that she's spent the last three centuries on an excavation and intends to continue for another one. Even for the Mechanicus, that's a hefty percentage of one's lifespan dedicated to a single potential archeotech site. Thalya is not going to forget about us, or assume that we're digging up a dry well. We've shown ourselves to be too competent to be that foolish.

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Counterpoint, "Magos Vita" arrived only 10 years before contact stopped. Even if we figured we were chasing ghosts, we couldn't exactly pack up and leave. So even following a tenuous lead is... better than anything else to some types of people.
We can easily paint ourselves as a grumpy magos who mostly just doesn't wanna give up on a ghost chase because the alternative is being an underdog and losing more or less everything to bad luck. Basically just refusing to cope and sticking our head deep in denial and drinking those waters of willful ignorance.

 

[JayTar]

It's been five years since the end of last turn, as timelines for corruption go that's not unbelievable.

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I suppose. Doesn't really change the calculus. If Thalya receives a secret report from Anexa, she has no reason to believe it isn't genuine.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

If we are worried about Thalya accepting our report of "Dirt is dirt. The End.", what if we fabricated corroborating reports from Anexa (with her permission of course) which are then "secretly" passed on to Thalya?

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Any plan that involves telling them "we found nothing" is bound to provoke the response "Ok, if there's nothing than you can show us the digsite you've been working on for centuries" while being suspicious AS FUCK about us and likely believing we did find something special and we're trying to hoard it for ourselves b/c it's exactly what most of them would try to do if they found something big. The cat is out of the bag, they already believe we're excavating an STC and trying to say there's nothing here would be the height of naïveté and idiocy b/c Thayla will immediately latch onto the most likely and believable explanation when a supposedly ancient and skilled Magos Explorator says that her centuries of digging produced nothing.

Our best bet is to keep stalling and feeding them scraps, make them think that progress is ongoing but slow and we're at least somewhat willing to cooperate. Outright denying there's anything at all would be the most suspicious thing we could do.

Counterpoint, "Magos Vita" arrived only 10 years before contact stopped. Even if we figured we were chasing ghosts, we couldn't exactly pack up and leave. So even following a tenuous lead is... better than anything else to some types of people.
We can easily paint ourselves as a grumpy magos who mostly just doesn't wanna give up on a ghost chase because the alternative is being an underdog and losing more or less everything to bad luck. Basically just refusing to cope and sticking our head deep in denial and drinking those waters of willful ignorance.

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Then that also begs the question: why didn't Vita say it was a dead end when they first spoke a decade ago?

Now it you really want it to be so there is nothing, you don't deny it, you make it sound like Vita is an obsessed egomaniac who is sooooo close to uncovering the jackpot but has nothing to show for it. Make them come to that conclusion to themselves than outright saying there's nothing in the first report we make.

 

[Insult Everyone!]

Then that also begs the question: why didn't Vita say it was a dead end when they first spoke a decade ago?

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Waters of willful ignorance. She hasn't given up because then it means she's spent all this time WASTED, all her effort, her life's work... for NOTHING. Sunk cost fallacy.
All we have to do is play it like we're stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the obvious truth. It'd also do a good job explaining why we refused help, deep down we know it's hopeless and we don't wanna appear like we've lost.
Having that "secret" of ours hanging over us should also make Thalya feel more secure about our presence here. Blackmail, to force our co-operation.

Whether we want to do so is a different matter. It's our "out" to dodge everything and scoot without burning our cover. But it'll also lose us... a lot of respect and political weight that we won't be able to use and make it a lot harder to believe if we wanna pull out DAoT artefacts later for whatever reason. We could also make it look like there was a sudden breakthrough, but the more we play into the "we were being stupid all along" the worse that'll be.

 

[JayTar]

Any plan that involves telling them "we found nothing" is bound to provoke the response "Ok, if there's nothing than you can show us the digsite you've been working on for centuries" while being suspicious AS FUCK about us and likely believing we did find something special and we're trying to hoard it for ourselves b/c it's exactly what most of them would try to do if they found something big. The cat is out of the bag, they already believe we're excavating an STC and trying to say there's nothing here would be the height of naïveté and idiocy b/c Thayla will immediately latch onto the most likely and believable explanation when a supposedly ancient and skilled Magos Explorator says that her centuries of digging produced nothing.

Our best bet is to keep stalling and feeding them scraps, make them think that progress is ongoing but slow and we're at least somewhat willing to cooperate. Outright denying there's anything at all would be the most suspicious thing we could do.

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No, because even having those scraps draws attention. If we give them scraps that is suspicious because it means they know we found something. But if they are only getting scraps, then we must be hiding something big. They aren't blind.
If we just say "We are now 10% closer to our projected target. Here is the excavation progress data." (carefully doctored to indicate a false location), then it's possible we just haven't found anything.

We straight up told them we will be on this for a century:

You don't move an inch. "%Unable to know. Ship presence is certain, but STC is unknown I continue my dig, but it will likely take another century to complete my search.%"

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The idea that we don't have immediate results isn't suspicious, it's expected.

They already tried to bully the location of the site from us. We gave them an emphatic no. That card is already played.

Her response is a frustrated bleat. "%Unacceptable. Progress must be faster. I will mobilize the forces of the mechanicus to accelerate this search, and we will share credit.%"

It may have been a mistake to mention this. Whoops.

"%Refusal. The task is sensitive, and I will complete it alone.%" You try to project that this is something you won't bend on. You would rather die than give up your "discovery."

You can see her think through her options, and it's almost like watching a tactical computer work. A few sensors flick over your combat robots as well as your shuttle. She could win the fight but it's not certain that she'd survive, and somewhat unlikely you'd survive.

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It is equally likely and believable we are an obsessed fool with tunnel vision deep in the sunk cost fallacy. Or that we were straight up lying to her when we said we had an ancient ship. After all, if she doesn't trust us, why should she trust us when we said that? That would very neatly explain why we don't want to show it to anyone, it doesn't exist.

Especially with corroborating reports from our apprentice.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

If we just say "We are now 10% closer to our projected target. Here is the excavation progress data." (carefully doctored to indicate a false location), then it's possible we just haven't found anything.

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If you give them a false location, they are GOING TO WANT TO SEE SAID LOCATION FOR THEMSELVES!

I don't know what's so hard to understand. We are dealing with the Mechanicus, a bunch of petty assholes always looking to assert superiority over each other and greedily hoard and hide anything special for themselves. If we say we found nothing, they are going to want to see where we looked for themselves b/c their first instinct when someone told them they found nothing after looking for hundreds of years and were so secretive and protective over that search is that they're being lied to.

Meanwhile, scraps does indicate we found something, but sometimes when you're doing archeology scraps can be all they do find. Any extra time could be explainable as us trying to be careful in not setting off any defensive measures or damaging anything, and perhaps we found only a broken section of a larger ship.

 

[Speedemon22]

I know we have an antenna that is able to obfuscate our signal but what about when it gets jammed? Will we be able to get around that with the right tech and on the other end can we design a tower to jam enemy signals?

 

[Alectai]

[ ] Plan: Soon Vita Will Into Space
-[] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular.
--[ ] Space Marines? There's got to be more to that...
-[] Diplomacy: Mechanicus Shooshing
--[ ] Thalya is a menace, but until you're ready to dislodge their monopoly, you need to pretend like you're playing ball. Send a mocked up progress report--consulting with Aneva to see if she can help you cook the books a little more--and include some samples in the form of broken up components that you otherwise would have been recycling, but can serve as 'proof' that you're not fabricating the whole thing. A few crumbs here and there to make them willing to wait and let you do the work. While you're at it, see if you can get to dickering with some samples for the purpose of 'Unbiased Comparison', because you really want a chance to see how the whole Machine Spirit thing properly works, and if there are any useful insights to be gleaned in Imperial design. (Do our thing to keep Thalya and the Mechanicus complacent, see if we can squeeze some samples out for our studies while we're at it.)
-[] Diplomacy: Touching Base with our Handlers
--[ ] Our partnership has been fruitful so far, and things have been going well--well enough that we're willing to extend a little more trust in turn, we do in fact, have a very limited supply of Anti-Agathic medicines that we can share out--we don't have the schematics to expand production as it was tightly controlled and honestly outside the scope of our mission, but for the sake of keeping things humming along smoothly, we're willing to share some of our production to minimize any turnover. That aside though, we are curious about the third major institution that's running around--the monasteries. Psy-active folks weren't exactly well known when I was running around, and if that's changed, I'd like to have the option of preparing some countermeasures. Is there any way you can put me in touch with one of those? (Further good relations with the local government by adding some Juvenat trade to further sweeten the deal, and hopefully minimize any turn-over of the agents we're working with. As a side note, see if we can get an introduction to open communications with one or more of the monastaries)
-[ ] Construction: (+750 BP)
--[ ] Underground Basic Technological Research Lab (150 BP)
--[ ] Camoflauged Observatory (200 BP)
--[ ] 3x Manufactories (300 BP)
--[ ] Trade Goods (50 BP)
-[ ] Research (+200 RP)
--[ ] Cybernetics (200 RP)
-[] [Anexa] Active: Help us shoosh the Mechanicus (+5 to the Diplo roll I guess?)

 

[DragonParadox]

-[] [Anexa] Active: Help us shoosh the Mechanicus (+5 to the Diplo roll I guess?)

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I think it is worth it to just have her study, it is a very easy roll for now and we should take the low hanging fruit where we can.

 

[Hunter531]

Any plan that involves telling them "we found nothing" is bound to provoke the response "Ok, if there's nothing than you can show us the digsite you've been working on for centuries" while being suspicious AS FUCK about us and likely believing we did find something special and we're trying to hoard it for ourselves b/c it's exactly what most of them would try to do if they found something big.

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That's not even the worst case scenario. Thalya might assume that the reason we're so secretive is because we're excavating a site that really shouldn't be excavated. Given her mistrust of Explorators, history redacted by the Inquisition, the fact that she jumped to Xenos site when we first met, and the local Necrons, I suspect she has personal experience with that sort of disaster.

No, because even having those scraps draws attention. If we give them scraps that is suspicious because it means they know we found something. But if they are only getting scraps, then we must be hiding something big. They aren't blind.
If we just say "We are now 10% closer to our projected target. Here is the excavation progress data." (carefully doctored to indicate a false location), then it's possible we just haven't found anything.

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We should probably still provide some evidence though. Some small pieces of archeotech, period journals, stuff to prove that we're not just blowing smoke and secretly digging up some Necrons.

I also don't think we have a full century before suspicion goes up too much though, as that means the STC was literally in the last place we looked. 70-80 years might be more realistic, but I think we can extend that if we play things smart.

Mention how the STC had been badly damaged, and it will take at least another century before Vita can recover all the data. Over the course of said century, we drip feed incomplete blueprints and the like to the various Mechanicus factions. They then have to spend a great deal of time and effort on piecing things together before their rivals do.

If Thalya or someone else calls us out, "subtly" ask if they have a better way to ensure that the knowledge goes to those who are worthy. Thus, any faction who tries to take it by force will be effectively admitting they aren't worthy and can't pass our tests. That, plus the fact that whoever tries will piss off every other Mechanicus group, should reduce the amount of attacks to a level where our future defenses can handle them.

 

[Negentropy]

In that case how well would a single defence satellite protect our main industrial site from missile attacks and the like? would we have to build multiple to get fulltime coverage?

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You'd almost certainly need multiple, if only for some measure of redundancy/preventing a single point of failure. The Mechanius most likely have some killstat weapons after all.

 

[10ebbor10]

Any plan that involves telling them "we found nothing" is bound to provoke the response "Ok, if there's nothing than you can show us the digsite you've been working on for centuries" while being suspicious AS FUCK about us and likely believing we did find something special and we're trying to hoard it for ourselves b/c it's exactly what most of them would try to do if they found something big. The cat is out of the bag, they already believe we're excavating an STC and trying to say there's nothing here would be the height of naïveté and idiocy b/c Thayla will immediately latch onto the most likely and believable explanation when a supposedly ancient and skilled Magos Explorator says that her centuries of digging produced nothing.

Our best bet is to keep stalling and feeding them scraps, make them think that progress is ongoing but slow and we're at least somewhat willing to cooperate. Outright denying there's anything at all would be the most suspicious thing we could do.

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Our cover story is that we've been digging for 200 years, and after those 200 years, we have been unwilling to divulge any details.
Digging for 210 years and still not divulging any details isn't suspicious, it's business as usual.

The most likely and believable explanation is the exact same one that Thalya got a decade earlier. Because that's the one she already believes.

And well, as long as Thalya doesn't know where we are, and we don't need anything from her, that's all the explanation we need to give her. Now, if we had some more apprentices we needed to smuggle out, or some other kind of deal to make, then we might have to give up information. But we don't. We do not need to interact with the enclave in any fashion. So we have no reason to bend.

 

[JayTar]

If you give them a false location, they are GOING TO WANT TO SEE SAID LOCATION FOR THEMSELVES!

I don't know what's so hard to understand. We are dealing with the Mechanicus, a bunch of petty assholes always looking to assert superiority over each other and greedily hoard and hide anything special for themselves. If we say we found nothing, they are going to want to see where we looked for themselves b/c their first instinct when someone told them they found nothing after looking for hundreds of years and were so secretive and protective over that search is that they're being lied to.

Meanwhile, scraps does indicate we found something, but sometimes when you're doing archeology scraps can be all they do find. Any extra time could be explainable as us trying to be careful in not setting off any defensive measures or damaging anything, and perhaps we found only a broken section of a larger ship.

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They already want to see said location themselves. Thalya was straight up considering if she could take us in a fight to steal the location from us!
We don't care what they want! They have no means to force the location from us, otherwise they already would have.

We aren't going to give them "Oh the exact coordinates are xyz". The idea is to give them just enough information to establish a rough region, which is wrong. Like, "Oh the pauses in the dig timestamps match the climate patterns of this region, so we know roughly what area to search for their dig site."

And then they waste a bunch of time searching and don't find us.

We should probably still provide some evidence though. Some small pieces of archeotech, period journals, stuff to prove that we're not just blowing smoke and secretly digging up some Necrons.

I also don't think we have a full century before suspicion goes up too much though, as that means the STC was literally in the last place we looked. 70-80 years might be more realistic, but I think we can extend that if we play things smart.

Mention how the STC had been badly damaged, and it will take at least another century before Vita can recover all the data. Over the course of said century, we drip feed incomplete blueprints and the like to the various Mechanicus factions. They then have to spend a great deal of time and effort on piecing things together before their rivals do.

If Thalya or someone else calls us out, "subtly" ask if they have a better way to ensure that the knowledge goes to those who are worthy. Thus, any faction who tries to take it by force will be effectively admitting they aren't worthy and can't pass our tests. That, plus the fact that whoever tries will piss off every other Mechanicus group, should reduce the amount of attacks to a level where our future defenses can handle them.

Click to shrink...

We are forgetting just how big of a deal this sort of stuff is. Right now it's just our word, but if we start to put out physical evidence we will draw the attention of all the Mechanicus.

Maybe we can reconsider after a few more decades, but I would consider bringing out results at this point more suspicious not less.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

-[] Diplomacy: Touching Base with our Handlers
--[ ] Our partnership has been fruitful so far, and things have been going well--well enough that we're willing to extend a little more trust in turn, we do in fact, have a very limited supply of Anti-Agathic medicines that we can share out--we don't have the schematics to expand production as it was tightly controlled and honestly outside the scope of our mission, but for the sake of keeping things humming along smoothly, we're willing to share some of our production to minimize any turnover. That aside though, we are curious about the third major institution that's running around--the monasteries. Psy-active folks weren't exactly well known when I was running around, and if that's changed, I'd like to have the option of preparing some countermeasures. Is there any way you can put me in touch with one of those? (Further good relations with the local government by adding some Juvenat trade to further sweeten the deal, and hopefully minimize any turn-over of the agents we're working with. As a side note, see if we can get an introduction to open communications with one or more of the monastaries)

Click to shrink...

I still think this plan is too conservative. Remember, we were just told by the QM that tensions are heating up between Aevon and the Mechanicus with a very real worry being that they might not be able to produce or even maintain their equipment. This is something we are uniquely suited for and would get us a lot of goodwill with them. Then there's the Juvenant, which we very well could start producing for and we'd need to give them enough so that W would be considered for getting it instead of her bosses just hoarding it for themselves.

Which is why I think we should give them some Manufactories, camouflaged so that they're less likely to be discovered, and let them know we can in fact make Juvenant and are willing to give it to them.

 

[10ebbor10]

We are forgetting just how big of a deal this sort of stuff is. Right now it's just our word, but if we start to put out physical evidence we will draw the attention of all the Mechanicus.

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Yup, right now we're Thalya's pet annoyance. The other Mechanicus don't care.

As soon as it appears that an actual site of worth is found, every important Magos in every enclave will come looking.

I still think this plan is too conservative. Remember, we were just told by the QM that tensions are heating up between Aevon and the Mechanicus with a very real worry being that they might not be able to produce or even maintain their equipment. This is something we are uniquely suited for and would get us a lot of goodwill with them. Then there's the Juvenant, which we very well could start producing for and we'd need to give them enough so that W would be considered for getting it instead of her bosses just hoarding it for themselves.

Which is why I think we should give them some Manufactories, camouflaged so that they're less likely to be discovered, and let them know we can in fact make Juvenant and are willing to give it to them.

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Think a bit further.

The origin of the conflict is Aevon taking a hardline stance, seemingly not worried about the Mechanicus's technological embargos.
The reason they're not worried is because they think they can lean on us.

So, you offering a massive amount of freebies is throwing gasoline onto the fire.
Your plan is going to spark a war.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

They already want to see said location themselves. Thalya was straight up considering if she could take us in a fight to steal the location from us!
We don't care what they want! They have no means to force the location from us, otherwise they already would have.

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But that's the thing, if we say there really is nothing and we still refuse to tell them where we looked, that's gonna look suspicious as fuck to them b/c why the hell would we refuse to tell them where some worthless digsites in a wild goose chase would be?

 

[JayTar]

But that's the thing, if we say there really is nothing and we still refuse to tell them where we looked, that's gonna look suspicious as fuck to them b/c why the hell would we refuse to tell them where some worthless digsites in a wild goose chase would be?

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Because "nothing so far" doesn't mean "we're done". Obviously we are still digging. Maybe nothing at the 50 or 60 year mark will look suspicious. But nothing right now is perfectly logical if we haven't even reached the target location yet.

You would be correct if we were talking about the dig as a whole, but we are only talking about this 10 year segment.

 

[10ebbor10]

But that's the thing, if we say there really is nothing and we still refuse to tell them where we looked, that's gonna look suspicious as fuck to them b/c why the hell would we refuse to tell them where some worthless digsites in a wild goose chase would be?

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Why would it be suspicious?

It's the exact same thing the Magos has been claiming for 200 years. Looking for site, haven't found anything definite yet, quit asking me about it.

Also, do you really need to ask why a member of the Mechanicus is keeping secrets?
A member of the Mechanicus who is characterized as such a loner, such an isolated figure that she practically didn't seem to exist for hte last 200 year?
Does that sound like someone who would offer up the information that would let someone else retrace their steps?
Volunteering information is more suspicious.

 

[Hunter531]

We are forgetting just how big of a deal this sort of stuff is. Right now it's just our word, but if we start to put out physical evidence we will draw the attention of all the Mechanicus.

Click to shrink...

Evidence of an archeotech site, yes, but not all of those sites will have an STC fragment. Vita's ship has plenty of archeotech, but no STC yet. Moreover, the fact that we've been digging for a considerable portion of our presumed lifespan kinda suggests there's archeotech in them hills.

Moreover, why would Thalya spread the word about what we've found? That just increases the odds of one of her rivals jumping our claim, and I can't imagine that would be good for her politically.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

Because "nothing so far" doesn't mean "we're done". Obviously we are still digging. Maybe nothing at the 50 or 60 year mark will look suspicious. But nothing right now is perfectly logical if we haven't even reached the target location yet.

You would be correct if we were talking about the dig as a whole, but we are only talking about this 10 year segment.

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Then pardon me, I misunderstood you. I thought you said we should deny we found anything at all and that the search was a dead end instead of just saying we were still searching.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

Think a bit further.

The origin of the conflict is Aevon taking a hardline stance, seemingly not worried about the Mechanicus's technological embargos.
The reason they're not worried is because they think they can lean on us.

So, you offering a massive amount of freebies is throwing gasoline onto the fire.
Your plan is going to spark a war.

Click to shrink...

Perhaps, but there's still the chance that a war will start anyways and if one does I would prefer that they can stand a chance, and I have confidence that the people in charge of Aevon know that a full-on war would bring out the nukes and no rejuvenant or mass-producible small arms and tanks can keep them safe from the canned sunshine.

 

[Picio]

Let's just fix up something big and proudly display it as our find to all mechanicus so they can warship and do things to it for the next century or so.
We will get good PR and they will be too busy to bother us.
Let's say rip out our ships gellar field generator or something else complicated.

 

[JayTar]

Evidence of an archeotech site, yes, but not all of those sites will have an STC fragment. Vita's ship has plenty of archeotech, but no STC yet. Moreover, the fact that we've been digging for a considerable portion of our presumed lifespan kinda suggests there's archeotech in them hills.

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That just means it's very very valuable instead of very very very very valuable.

It suggests it yes, but it is in our favor to keep it at the level of "suggestion" rather then "proof" because one will prompt far more decisive and dramatic actions then the other.

Moreover, why would Thalya spread the word about what we've found? That just increases the odds of one of her rivals jumping our claim, and I can't imagine that would be good for her politically.

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Are we going to trust her with that? If nothing else it would give her a fair bit more leverage over us.

 

[Prime 2.0]

The reasoning that producing actual dig material would draw more mechanicus attention than we satisfy rings true to me. We haven't snubbed anyone else in the mechanicus that I can recall (I have not checked this), so if it's just her...

Yeah, I'd keep the report unfulfilling.

Positioning ourselves to resolve the maintenance crisis seems like a good idea - Juvenant caters to the leaders, but it doesn't do much to help the stability of the country itself. We need to make sure the sheep is healthy, not just gather its wool.

Longer term, we also have to consider how to see to the stability of relations between the planet's nations, I think. Once it comes time for the non-mechanicus nations to start contemplating Vita handing out goodies to countries that aren't them, well, maybe then the Juvenant could come out to play to ensure nobody spokes the wheels of international peace.

Would fucking suck if anybody nuked each other before we got back, and all that.

We'd need to set up the locals to produce their own juvenant for that. And there's no guarantee she'd still be around or willing to help when we next visit, which might be decades or even hundreds of years after we leave. Plus, this is a democracy, not a dictatorship, so she's not the one competent ruler of the locals or anything like that. We know she's good at espionage but she's not single-handedly running the government.

Intentionally not trying to recruit her doesn't seem likely to get us anything.

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I mean, if she wants to come along by all means. I just figured that even recruited, there was stuff she could do here too.

 

[10ebbor10]

The reasoning that producing actual dig material would draw more mechanicus attention than we satisfy rings true to me. We haven't snubbed anyone else in the mechanicus that I can recall (I have not checked this), so if it's just her...

Click to shrink...

Her and Anexa's former master.