Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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Denva isn't really researching topics in the way Vita is, and using a boon to research something specific in a big project seems like a bit of a waste. Better to spend it on a new crew member (Diviner Psyker/Strategist? Second scientist?), manufacturing, or backup by one of their fleets in a battle or something.

Research is almost always most efficiently done by Vita and crew.
 
Ratato said:
The tripwire still has problems, and if they manage to make headway on the efficiency side of things that means we can focus on other areas we have been pausing and still make chip progress on this tree via their help?
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Remember, the boon isn't one and done. It is a tech sharing agreement for that tree of research in perpetuity. It would seem a waste to do this for a single tech, especially when we can't control exactly what they research.

Edit: if there is a specific tech we want, we should just research it. If there is a tree of tech that we think is neat but is mid priority, that's what we should use and agreement on.
 
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seonor said:
Denva isn't really researching topics in the way Vita is, and using a boon to research something specific in a big project seems like a bit of a waste. Better to spend it on a new crew member (Diviner Psyker/Strategist? Second scientist?), manufacturing, or backup by one of their fleets in a battle or something.

Research is almost always most efficiently done by Vita and crew.
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This isn't a one and done research boon.

They'll keep researching for all time in that category.
Which.. Psychic Shields won't ever be a waste for them?

And outside of the Alternative Shielding Meaning for warp comms ought to let us focus elsewhere.

Nightlord256 said:
Im also not sold on having Denva research psychic shielding. I think they are pretty set on that front after this turn. I'd say Biology and Cybernetics, which both have lots of lower cost techs that would be hugely beneficial to Denva (and nice for us to have as well).
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Hm.
I'd rather set them on Ship Design than Biology.
Nightlord256 said:
Remember, the boon isn't one and done. It is a tech sharing agreement for that tree of research in perpetuity. It would seem a waste to do this for a single tech, especially when we can't control exactly what they research.
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We indeed can't control what they will research, but neither is it chosen at random.

They'll research for their own needs and wants. And they'll want the reliability with the way they spread the shields around.
 
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LightLan said:
I'd rather set them on Ship Design than Biology.
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If we could give them a set we of techs to research id agree. But since the techs are random I'm not sure of the payoff for ships design. Most of the tech we would want from that tree would be for specific builds.

The average tech price is also higher there, which would slow the development.

I like cyber and bio since there is a lot of low hanging fruit that would be nice to have but we are unlikely to spend RP on unless they are needed for a specific plan.

Edit: all that being said, I think the research agreement is one of the lowest tier boon rewards in my book.
 
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I'm sorry to make the discussion on what to do next worse. But I'm not sure if people have remembered that we have more than 50 people who need Juvenat. We'll need to make a new module of it, perhaps in a space station if we haven't made a new flagship with the Cramming techs soonish.
 
Aura Dragon said:
I'm sorry to make the discussion on what to do next worse. But I'm not sure if people have remembered that we have more than 50 people who need Juvenat. We'll need to make a new module of it, perhaps in a space station if we haven't made a new flagship with the Cramming techs soonish.
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Eh, put some production down in Aetherion for now.
We got the good juvenat that even makes younger, so some temporary gaps aren't a problem.
Neablis said:
Basic Juvenat Production Facility (250 BP, 50 CP) A set of carefully-managed vats capable of supplying 50 people with a perennial supply of Juvenat.
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Aura Dragon said:
I'm sorry to make the discussion on what to do next worse. But I'm not sure if people have remembered that we have more than 50 people who need Juvenat. We'll need to make a new module of it, perhaps in a space station if we haven't made a new flagship with the Cramming techs soonish.
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That doesn't seem like too much of an issue considering we are mostly research constrained. And if we can finally throw Bongo into the sun after being done with Demonology then we will open up a couple of modules.

LightLan said:
We already have the better sensors. And will get even better ones as part of the warp com research. That's not in doubt.

Better armor or shields would be useful too, but not quite as game-changing as the (Gravity Weapons + Biggest Booms) =>Nova cannons combo.

Those are exterminatus-grade nukes sent at range.
One hit, one kill. At long range.
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Do we need to do a exterminatus? No question the gun is great, but what do we need to blow up that we can't with the weapons we currently have?
 
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henkalv said:
Do we need to do a exterminatus? No question the gun is great, but what do we need to blow up that we can't with the weapons we currently have?
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exterminatus-grade. Does not mean we will fire it at planets.

If we had it earlier, we could've lured the chaos heavy cruiser away from Denva Secundus by threatening Aetherion.

Then shoot it to paste in the empty void with a single shot. Cause that's what Nova Cannons do.

The only reason we wouldn't want to shoot it while it's in orbit of Denva Secundus would be collateral. Some bad storms probably.

It wouldn't have been a fight. It would've been an execution.
 
meianmaru said:
But yes. My outline is to have Nova Cannons researched, with Bongo bound and cramming techs done by Turn 33. That way, we should be able to slap a Nova Cannon of our own on the Spark with room to spare hopefully. With at least one ship with firepower like that as well as enough in-system Escort Ships, we can focus on nice things to have.

Not to mention that on the way we will also research grav-weapons, which will make void and ground combat much more favorable for us.
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Um...Nova Cannons are huge spinal mounts, ship frames/superstructures are literally built around them. There's no way Spark can have a Nova Cannon.

Now, our next-gen Battleship body, OTOH...

OTOH...there's good reason we might not want to have a Nova Cannon on our body/flagship, but our escorts instead. A spinal Nova Cannon will take up a ton of internal volume, which will cut down on what internal systems we put inside our flagship. We might want to not have a spinal weapon at all, instead going for more of a Carrier/Transport build, this way we can have tons of fighters and bot armies (leveraging our strengths as an AI), while also enabling us to ship huge amounts of stuff wherever we need to go, PLUS lots of freed up internal room for whatever we want inside.

So...yeah. Spinal Novas on our escort Battleships, Battlecruisers, and Heavy Cruisers, but our Flagship I'm thinking might not be a good idea.


EDIT:

Oh, and my personal preferences for tech to be researched:

Superconductive Shenanigans
Advanced Materials (at least starting it with bleedover RP)
Antigrav (its only 50RP, and could provide potentially huge dividends in design, manufacturing, not to mention sheer combat utility and mobility)
Nova Cannon prereqs (obviously, and we have to have them BEFORE we build ships bc ship superstructures have to be built around them, they can't be slapped on later like other techs/innovations/upgrades)
 
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armentho said:
is not a binary issue,you can still progress all things you mentioned while still getting the 101 done
it costs 100RP to deny chaos the "groom psy shield into chaos emitter over the decades" option

if we do demonology (as most as intending to do) and coop R&D (to increase our RP) we should have enough to spare to adress this fundamental flaw in our assets for gods sake

is not a 400RP niche research,is key issue at the core of our shields that isnt expensive to fix and that can save us for massive issues down the line
that we can easily patch for cheap

is like refusing to patch a gas leak in the gast tank just because isnt inmediatly urgent at the moment
there will be a spark and it will fuck us over because we are being greedy and spare 10 bucks for a plug

long short story,this flaw falls into the "is fine untill is not"
is low probability but is cumulative (chance of failure increase over time)
if it were to happen it would be a major pain in the ass,like a loose screw that comes off at the worst possible moment,or a load bearing part slowly decaying,or a gas leak igniting because a loose spark or climate change

it will eventually happen by virtue of being deployed around chaos over long periods of time

and we have a comparatively cheap (100 RP) way to fix it right here and now before the shit hits the fan

is not expensive(compared to those 200 to 400 actions we usually take),it doesnt require crippling overfocus commitment and it will save a "FUCK LETS SPEND 500 RP FIXING THISS SHIT" turn

again im not asking you guys to spend 104929392 RP every turn
but take this easy 100RP fix before we leave denva so we dont have to deal with inevitable "shield corrupted itself slowly under our nose" scenario and have to deal with over one or two turns of fixing shit
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See, the thing is: 1. If they're doing this over a period of time, they have to avoid tripping the tripwires over a long time. That's also cumulative.
2. I'm not arguing not to do this. I'm arguing to save it for later. Even with R&D we're going to get under 600 RP per turn at best on a double action. And what we have on our plate to do now is a lot for three turns. To the point that I am triaging the urgent stuff.
LightLan said:
How about we spend the boon we ought to be earning this turn on Denva R&D psychic shields (and one more, since we can choose two per boon)?

This ought to make Denva research the Psychic Shielding Reliability on their own and share it with us.
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That might work... but I think we're kind of mostly set on this front. I would prefer to set them on ship designs—that should get them on the right mindset to make a navy this time. Then again, I think we get to pick two subjects?
armentho said:
thats fine by me,my idea at its core is

>leave the basics done so chaos doesnt have a "cripple denva with this one easy trick"

if we can outsource the reliability to denva im happy
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It's not an easy trick; it has a low success chance, low chance of happening, and relies on intimate knowledge of our tech and its vulnerabilities.
LightLan said:
That's my rough draft for next turn right now. Building some candles to tide us over while we get the rest going.

Turn 32:
-[] Construction: repair shipyard, build 6 candles. Turn over candles to Denva.
-[] Diplomacy: Help Denva get their R&D up and running
-[] Research x2 (400 + 85 (Anexa) + 60 (Anexa staff) = 545 RP)
--[] Collaberative Computational R&D (250 RP)
---[] Anexa assist
--[] Gravity Weapons (200 RP)
--[] Abacus Manufacturing (50/100 -> 100/100 RP)
--[] Alternative Shielding Meanings (45/150 RP)
-[] Turn over Abacus Manufacturing, Star Charts, Collaberative R&D to earn two boons together with the diplomacy action.
-[] Spend last turn's boon. Options (Psyker, R&D: Psy-shields (should make Denva research Psychic Shielding Reliability on their own and share it with us, manufacturing (either permanent or one-time))
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I'm hoping we can get some more of the urgent stuff going—navibean, necrons, a greater focus on warp comms... a big gun is fine, but it's not urgent. Having more ships will do for now.
Nightlord256 said:
That is a nice plan. I'd toss 12 RP at updating the Candle blueprint with warp drives. Living space is the same cost as a Warp drive + Abacus, so the cost would stay the same.

Im also not sold on having Denva research psychic shielding. I think they are pretty set on that front after this turn. I'd say Biology and Cybernetics, which both have lots of lower cost techs that would be hugely beneficial to Denva (and nice for us to have as well).
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Agreed, though I think Cybernetics being an Anexa specialty means we'll want to do that ourselves and Biology is something we'll have to do for Navibean, so I'd put them on Ship Design to also motivate them to get on their navy building.
seonor said:
Denva isn't really researching topics in the way Vita is, and using a boon to research something specific in a big project seems like a bit of a waste. Better to spend it on a new crew member (Diviner Psyker/Strategist? Second scientist?), manufacturing, or backup by one of their fleets in a battle or something.

Research is almost always most efficiently done by Vita and crew.
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Yes... though we're limited, so it's good to have them pecking at things in the background.
LightLan said:
This isn't a one and done research boon.

They'll keep researching for all time in that category.
Which.. Psychic Shields won't ever be a waste for them?

And outside of the Alternative Shielding Meaning for warp comms ought to let us focus elsewhere.

Hm.
I'd rather set them on Ship Design than Biology.

We indeed can't control what they will research, but neither is it chosen at random.

They'll research for their own needs and wants. And they'll want the reliability with the way they spread the shields around.
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Exactly. Though they might not share it with us without the agreement. Ship Design will also stimulate them to make their navy.
DragonParadox said:
Just bind him and throw him in a drawer, the Grey Knights have thousands of the damn things that stayed bound for thousands of years. No need to do anything with him once he's not taking up space.
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I do want to kill it at some point—at least to avoid someone freeing it later—but binding it will make it much less inconvenient to hold, it's true.
 
We should crack warp materials. We are a von numan machine waiting to happen. Our primary limit is manufacturing. Eventually anyplace we set up shop runs out of material to build with.

But if we crack bonesinging that problem goes away. Suddenly material to craft with is no longer a problem.

Even if it took 10 years to build the first warp syrinx we then use the first warp syrinx to build the second in a fraction of that time.

The it's exponential growth on a galactic scale. In 100 years we are bonesinging ships into existence who can bonesing ships into existance. In 1000 years we are a steadily expanding cloud of ships building bonesung warp shields into every system and leaving a garrison fleet behind to protect life.

In 10,000 years we research large-scale antigravity to prevent the steadily growing mass of our fleet from causing gravimetric disturbances of stellar orbits. We have expanded in all directions to the edge of the galaxy. We have build a sphere of fleets around the Eye of Terror.

And steadily, slowly, those fleets constrict. Their warp shields burn as they push against the edges of the Eye.

Slowly, ever so slowly, the Eye shrinks. Forced shut by the steady grind of no screamed by a weight of warp shields equal to the mass of the galactic core.

The Great Wound healed and buffered by a trillion trillion shields acting as baffles, the warp is forced to calm once more.
 
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Haganeko said:
That might work... but I think we're kind of mostly set on this front. I would prefer to set them on ship designs—that should get them on the right mindset to make a navy this time. Then again, I think we get to pick two subjects?
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We'll have three boons soon.

(1 for denva cult action, 1 for r&d help, 1 for abacus+ star maps)

I'd love for one to be a psyker. One on research. Yet undecided on the 3rd.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Slowly, ever so slowly, the Eye shrinks. Forced shut by the steady grind of no screamed by a weight of warp shields equal to the mass of the galactic core.
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I think you need necron tech for that. I do not think our shields are conceptually powerful enough to deal with proper warp rifts. They are mostly a passive 'NO' shouted warp-wards, but a proper warprift doesn't care about our opinion since it does not need to convince us it exists, it simply is. That said those are the kind of questions we need Immaterium understanding for.
 
DragonParadox said:
I think you need necron tech for that. I do not think our shields are conceptually powerful enough to deal with proper warp rifts. They are mostly a passive 'NO' shouted warp-wards, but a proper warprift doesn't care about our opinion since it does not need to convince us it exists, it simply is. That said those are the kind of questions we need Immaterium understanding for.
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Ok, but I imagine that is a problem that could be solved in the thousands of years before we get to that point. At some point in there the AI von numan swarm has overcome the Necrons.

And I am not sure it wouldn't work ether. The warp works off narrative and a large enough denial pushed stubbornly enough against the Eye is exactly the sort of thing that could force it closed.
 
henkalv said:
What's the motivation behind getting the Nova cannon? I get wanting to have a big gun, but having functional escorts seems more important? Also would really like to have -[] Gameified OMC (75 RP) and -[] Lower OMC Implant Specs (150 RP) to generate some naval officer heroes.

Also for warp communications slotting the -[] Shards of Humming Gemstone (100 RP) might just pay for itself considering it "discounts to technologies that involve resonance with the warp" which I would think covers empathy at range, Yelling into the Warp, and we might get discounts for it with the taste of chaos this turn.
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Because we're always going to be outnumbered, and Nova Cannons are the Great Equalizer.
 
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