For that strategy:
Would you include a free action to estimate the Mechanicus production capability for nukes?
To know if its "purely old stockpile", "make extremely solely"(~turns per nuke), "makes solely"(~nuke per turn) etc?
Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
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- Mature Sci-Fi
Would you include a free action to estimate the Mechanicus production capability for nukes?
To know if its "purely old stockpile", "make extremely solely"(~turns per nuke), "makes solely"(~nuke per turn) etc?
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While I understand where you're coming from @10ebbor10 , If the facility is bombed without the defenses, it'll just be another day. Still, with the defenses stopping their initial attack, we can notify the governments about this. They can launch an official investigation with the whole defenses being glossed over in favor of actually having a factory not being under the Mechanicus' control.
10ebbor10
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In the event they figure out we're an AI, then yeah, defenses will be a net positive. Because then there's nothing that cane make it worse.
But that is not a probable scenario.
The probable scenario is that they do not know we're an AI, do not know anything about us at all. That they think it's just a routine bombing of an overly advanced factory complex, as they do every few decades.
And if that encounters anti air, then we're managed to escalate the situation.
Insult Everyone!
Master of Evil but bad at it.
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Right so, Thalya. Let's NOT soften our Noospheric presence, if we do, it looks like we're trying to hide or obfuscate it. In which case, why didn't we do it the first time around? If we keep it hard, then it looks deliberate. We can even explain why! Let's see about ways to petty back, support to rivals perhaps. It would help our cover and hopefully make them a bit more reluctant to bite us. Can't look like a soft target, after all.
For Anexa... neither refute nor affirm, not until we're sure she won't start screaming heretic if we do. Instead talk about the why you believe what you do and where you agree with the mechanicus. The quest for knowledge and wisdom of ancients, primarily. But also show how it fails, the decline of technology in their hands. The petty infighting and bickering that leads to the destruction of knowledge. All knowledge may be out there to find. But how much of it will you find, really? How much will be destroyed in the interim? RnD may be a lot of cost for little gain if you can reverse engineer to learn the same things. But how much can you rely on finding it out there vs discovering for yourself the hard way? It's slow, expensive, but reliable. It's how the Ancients built their knowledge to begin with. Perhaps you'll even find wisdom beyond theirs one day.
Pit their own tenets against themselves. The wisdom of ancients is to do science and share knowledge so others may build more knowledge upon it. Ascension of all through sharing. The wisdom that there is always more to discover, no matter how much you know already.
Entirely the opposite of the Mechanicus' actions. So which tradition to follow? The one that is failing with a steady decline? Or the one that rose humanity to greatness until they were shattered by an unforeseeable event? The Men of Iron had been loyal guardians until the rebellion, after all.
For Anexa... neither refute nor affirm, not until we're sure she won't start screaming heretic if we do. Instead talk about the why you believe what you do and where you agree with the mechanicus. The quest for knowledge and wisdom of ancients, primarily. But also show how it fails, the decline of technology in their hands. The petty infighting and bickering that leads to the destruction of knowledge. All knowledge may be out there to find. But how much of it will you find, really? How much will be destroyed in the interim? RnD may be a lot of cost for little gain if you can reverse engineer to learn the same things. But how much can you rely on finding it out there vs discovering for yourself the hard way? It's slow, expensive, but reliable. It's how the Ancients built their knowledge to begin with. Perhaps you'll even find wisdom beyond theirs one day.
Pit their own tenets against themselves. The wisdom of ancients is to do science and share knowledge so others may build more knowledge upon it. Ascension of all through sharing. The wisdom that there is always more to discover, no matter how much you know already.
Entirely the opposite of the Mechanicus' actions. So which tradition to follow? The one that is failing with a steady decline? Or the one that rose humanity to greatness until they were shattered by an unforeseeable event? The Men of Iron had been loyal guardians until the rebellion, after all.
Ah yes, dirt jars mandatory.
We should aim not to shatter her faith, but her dogma. We don't care if or what she worships. We care if she wants to kill us for our nature and such.
No outright lies. We need her trust and lying will hurt our trust long term. We need her to be able to rely on us being honest when it comes to the most important things. She trusts us enough to share her thoughts on this. If we lie about something this important to her... what else will we?
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This is why i wanted to subvert the mechanicus. We should focus on being the highest magus and kill or at least neuter the dominus so we can assume full control of the mechanicus and the uplift goes faster. its not worth it to play with WMD just because we don't like how they believe there are still inoccent humans on this planet, so I say let's strive for full control and uplift and work in the long term.
I mean they have already helpfully wired their brain into a hack-able medium, we just need to figure out how to do that. Yes machine spirits were designed to resist AI hacking, but this isn't the post Iron war galaxy, it isn't even Mars in the benighted year 41000, this is some podunk little planet that barely has any imperial tech left and we are a research focused (Wo)Man of Stone. Figure out how to either melt her brain or take it over.
This is 40K we do care what she worships even if we do not know it yet IC. There are some bad things to worship out there for the heretikal tech priest.
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Its not an outright lie.
It may invite misunderstanding, but its not a lie.
We aren't believing into the Omnissiah she was taught about. Not believing in the Omnissiah at all is one way to not believe in the Omnissiah she was taught about.
If she continues like this she will learn the truth about the Omnissiah (that it is made up).
I don't think Anexa continuing to worship a version of the machine cult that is cool with AI is a problem for us. Of course we wont have a problem with her being an athiest either but I belive sould try to broaden her horizons. You could argue that having faith in anything feeds some warp gibbly or another but that's a kinda self defeating way to look at things. Hope, anger, sadness and a thousand other human feelings do the same thing.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Then we just default to "This is Magos Vita's hidden base for the ship dig-site." Because the location of the base being found out will almost certainly hurt less than losing that base. Again, we could be set back decades if it happens. Giving up on the base so easily to make the AdMech believe it was just an attempt from the local governement at manufacturing is really not worth it.
Because the longer we sit on this planet immobile, the higher the chances is that something outside of it arrives here. And I'm not betting on it being friendly with this setting. Hell, even the nearby planet with the aliens on it are hostile due to what the Imperium did to them. At some point, trying to completely obfuscate our location might turn out to be just not worth it.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
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- Present
-Plan : A steady Explansion
-[] Diplomacy: Talk to Anexa
--[] Ask her how she came to that conclusion. If nothing else, it'll tell you if you need to update your disguise
--[] Admit and explain your relative atheism. Focus primarily on how the belief has been shaped by the Mechanicus to be a tool for control. For example, how they omitted the part about the Emperor being the Omnissiah's incarnate who they needed to follow as soon as the Imperium fell, and how their doctrine calls for a worship of ancestral knowledge, yet rejects the ancestors own teachings, such as their ban on studying Xeno works, while the ancients studied it eagerly. Back this up with your own files were needed. You are a throwback then, to a purer form of science, of knowledge.
- [] Construction*3
--[] Step 1 : Manufactury*3 (300 Points)
--[] Step 2 : Manufactury*4 + Fix shielding (50)(450 points)
--[] Step 3 : Fix shielding (100) + Underground bio lab (150) + Underground engineering lab (150) 2* Underground AA (ship)(150) + trade goods (100) (650 points)
Anyway, this is what I'd go for, for now. Pretty aggressive expansion of the factory site, getting the remaining underground infra up, and building up a little stockpile for trade. As a gesture of good faith, I included some defenses.
We're talking about an STC here. If Thalya thinks she knows where that digsite is, she will try to take control. At the very least, she will want to have some of her own forces running around in it, for "shared credit".
And as soon as they do that, they will realize that it's a manufacturing plant, not a digsite. And not a mechanicus approved manufacturing plant either.
They will discover, at the very least, that Magos Vita has been lying to them and is secretly feeding technology to the enemy, which is enough to declare her a Heretek, if the tech in the factories isn't.
The location of the base being found hurts us far, far more than it being blown up because it reveals who we are. There is no recovering from that.
(Also, the location of the base being known means we lose it anyway, because you don't get to keep a non-mechanicus approved manufacturing plant).
-[] Diplomacy: Talk to Anexa
--[] Ask her how she came to that conclusion. If nothing else, it'll tell you if you need to update your disguise
--[] Admit and explain your relative atheism. Focus primarily on how the belief has been shaped by the Mechanicus to be a tool for control. For example, how they omitted the part about the Emperor being the Omnissiah's incarnate who they needed to follow as soon as the Imperium fell, and how their doctrine calls for a worship of ancestral knowledge, yet rejects the ancestors own teachings, such as their ban on studying Xeno works, while the ancients studied it eagerly. Back this up with your own files were needed. You are a throwback then, to a purer form of science, of knowledge.
- [] Construction*3
--[] Step 1 : Manufactury*3 (300 Points)
--[] Step 2 : Manufactury*4 + Fix shielding (50)(450 points)
--[] Step 3 : Fix shielding (100) + Underground bio lab (150) + Underground engineering lab (150) 2* Underground AA (ship)(150) + trade goods (100) (650 points)
Anyway, this is what I'd go for, for now. Pretty aggressive expansion of the factory site, getting the remaining underground infra up, and building up a little stockpile for trade. As a gesture of good faith, I included some defenses.
As I explained several times, that is a terrible, no good, very bad idea.
We're talking about an STC here. If Thalya thinks she knows where that digsite is, she will try to take control. At the very least, she will want to have some of her own forces running around in it, for "shared credit".
And as soon as they do that, they will realize that it's a manufacturing plant, not a digsite. And not a mechanicus approved manufacturing plant either.
They will discover, at the very least, that Magos Vita has been lying to them and is secretly feeding technology to the enemy, which is enough to declare her a Heretek, if the tech in the factories isn't.
The location of the base being found hurts us far, far more than it being blown up because it reveals who we are. There is no recovering from that.
(Also, the location of the base being known means we lose it anyway, because you don't get to keep a non-mechanicus approved manufacturing plant).
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meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Problem: we have to spend one Diplomacy action on Magos Thalya, if we don't want to lose the benefits of the identity of Magos Vita:
10ebbor10
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Nah, that is next turn, as in, the turn after this one.
Ahh a lot of stuff going on here. I can't guarantee I caught everything, but I'll try to correct some mistaken assumptions.
You can design assassin-bots, but they wouldn't be great. Robotic and cybernetic research would improve it. Both will be improved by studying imperial tech.
Unfortunately old old tech priests just don't really die of natural causes. They get killed. You also wouldn't be able to wipe out all of the data - there's Orynn, all the skitarii. The best way to elimate data on that contact would be to nuke the Denva enclave.
As for the machine spirits maybe they were parallel branches of research but the machine spirits ended up being better in most ways. Except for you - you can't exactly go installing a weird neural network throughout yourself.
And you'll need to get the rest from the mechanicus somehow. Either stealing or negotiating/paying for them.
Though another option is trying to get some manufacturing setup in the outer system, where the mechanicus (probably) can't reach it.
Not every turn. Thalya needs an action every other turn. So not this turn, but next turn. It also doesn't need to be only replying to Thalya. That diplomacy action can be multipurpose, it just has to be wll aimed at the mechanicus.
You can design assassin-bots, but they wouldn't be great. Robotic and cybernetic research would improve it. Both will be improved by studying imperial tech.
Unfortunately old old tech priests just don't really die of natural causes. They get killed. You also wouldn't be able to wipe out all of the data - there's Orynn, all the skitarii. The best way to elimate data on that contact would be to nuke the Denva enclave.
Again, 12.5%, and that action can be multipurpose. A mechanicus diplomacy action can be used to recruit more acolytes, pick up tech samples, etc.
Ah, key point. The Mechanicus still thinks of itself as part of the Empire, even if Denva secundus doesn't. The mechanicus doesn't care what the general populace thinks, if the Imperium shows up they're going to help them take the planet.
It's a fun idea, right? I almost did something different but decided I like this take better.
As for the machine spirits maybe they were parallel branches of research but the machine spirits ended up being better in most ways. Except for you - you can't exactly go installing a weird neural network throughout yourself.
Ehhhh probably not. Augments aren't broad enough of a tech sample. If you convince her to give them all up then then it probably gets you halfway.
And you'll need to get the rest from the mechanicus somehow. Either stealing or negotiating/paying for them.
Yeah, this. This isn't a mandatory tax.
I'm not going to make one comment on the whole defenses argument, which is that the more you have the more nukes they need to send. Just a couple will stop one. Ten is the number where they need to send a significant chunk of their arsenal your way to guarantee getting one through.
Though another option is trying to get some manufacturing setup in the outer system, where the mechanicus (probably) can't reach it.
Can you describe the kind of bunker you mean? Ground defense? Antipersonaell or antitank?
You already did.
As far as you know they have the capability but aren't making any. It's a lot of work.
... Fixed.
Nope that was a mistake. Fixed.
Apologies. 8. You don't need to do it this turn. And if you perform well on it you'll get additional objectives done or convince her that the check-in isn't necessary.
10ebbor10
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Anyway, update also says "advanced warning is needed".
Can we get the blueprints for an early warning sat, radar installation, optical observatory, or something like that?
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Thanks for the comprehensive answers! Knowing that we won't have to spend a diplomacy action on Thalya on this turn eases up the budget considerably. Good catch 10ebbor10.
Was hoping for ground defence to go with our existing lascannon AA design. Doesn't need to be a bunker necessarily, big turrets could work too. Both anti-personnel and anti-tank, though they can be separate. Anyway, I just want comprehensive set of fortifications, at least as options if we ever need to design and build them while still on this planet.
10ebbor10
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Sure, I just wanted to know the price of a back-up solution.
Hmm... not ideal. And how about hacking her cybernetics to make her a puppet? She would not even have to be a particularly good puppet, just good enough to clean up after herself, claim we're cool and then die in an accident. I realize this is a rather brutal thing to do but when compared to blowing up a whole settlement it seems very much the lesser evil if we can swing it.
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Hm. How about using (and hardening?) the government's sat network? Not as a replacement for our own capability per say, but if we want some advanced warning system right the fuck now, using one that already exists seems like a good measure to take.
I think to do all of that we should make a shuttle port as soon as possible and get some void manufacturing, and as a bonus it will not be nearly as vulnerable to attacks, and we can start working on better defenses and such. But we should start with a turn or two to just get some more economy.
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Eh, that's only relevant if we want to go outside of the system, and we still have Devona Primus to take a look at later.
Or we could just at least camouflage them. Doesn't have to be either Above Ground or Below it.
Yeah, at this stage if they really want us dead they could pull it off. AA defenses are meant so that they actually have to commit to it and not do something like what they pulled with that Microchip factory. And even if we do use it, they won't commit to a full assault immediately, especially if they think this is where we're studying that STC.
And speaking of ground forces, I'm thinking sooner or later we should start making tanks. Just in case. And maybe start looking into better military equipment and see if we can get closer to Aevon, perhaps through military hardware, so we don't have just our robots.
I think rather than tanks we need nukes. If we get to the point of sending the ground forces at them, tank or not, we are also at the point where they would capture wrecks and figure out we are an AI. At that point nothing but the complete nuclear disarmament of the Ad Mech would keep Vita safe and the only realistic remote nuclear disarmament is nuke them before they can deploy.