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To be honest Im more partial to getting our industry up to ar and looking on the craming techs.
Mostly because Vita is not behind at all for most imperial desing while being able to just have a better designed ship. Getting bigger and badder weapons would be useful but having the industry to keep us being buried by a tide of metal is more relevant.
 
To be honest Im more partial to getting our industry up to ar and looking on the craming techs.
Mostly because Vita is not behind at all for most imperial desing while being able to just have a better designed ship. Getting bigger and badder weapons would be useful but having the industry to keep us being buried by a tide of metal is more relevant.
But what about things like Nova Cannons? Having an advantage in our industry is extremely vital for us and the Sellar Ascendancy, yes. But making better weapons can have a multiplicative effect to take advantage of our industry. And as we've already made some advances with MS productivity increases for our manufactories, and we asked Denva to go down in a different path of industry techs in General Design (though results not guaranteed)...

Besides that, things like better materials could have also a great impact. Because if our weapons are more reliably killing our enemies as few hits as feasible, and our enemies are having a hard time piercing the armor that our units use? And then you start adding things like better stealth, sensors etc... Comprehensive advances in every field should be more effective, when compared to just pushing one part of our tool-kit to its limits.
 
I did a bit of gruntwork going through the thread and compiling all the numbers
Just counting d100 rolls that actually were used, including those by Neablis , there's been 145 rd100 rolls. The average is 48.74 We have rolled 4 natural 1's and 4 natural 100's. Which is more than expected.
Just looking at research? We have made 68 rolls, with an average of 42.13. So the research curse is real. 3 natural 1's were on research, but only 1 natural 100 was.
 
But what about things like Nova Cannons?
Ok long story short they are a later thing. Don't get me wrong I do want them since once we do have them we can just outfit them on a scale the Imperium cant, but we need have a industry that scales up for that.

Also they aren't the end all be all pardigm for us like they are for the Imperium because we have things like efficient desing, drastically lower crew requirements, and a relatively streamline industry that pound for pound any Ascendency desing grossly outgun the similar Imperial counterpart of same logistical footprint (the Imperium have more raw resources but they can only focus so much on one area, wich also is why they rely on super elites).

So in the end bigger guns are nice to have but not as impactful as having more guns on a ship andbe able to put out these guns faster.

You do have a point for material science, that and psychic materials are needed despite not being that flashy.
 
I see what you mean and you are right, most of the time while researching science stuff doesn't directly give us anything, it come with massive discounts and unlocks. As such I think high-energy physics and similar research might be a great idea.

Specifically I think the "keystone" researches we have at the moment are Immaterium Understanding (for warp stuff), The key to Expert surgery is Ego (for medicine), Psychic materials (for psytech), Drugs? Drugs (maybe for medicine), High-energy Physics (engines, Shields, sensors, weapons, etc), and Better Sensors are Just Physics (sensors).
You're missing some big ones in that list. Intelligence Coding, Companion Cogitators, that materials tech, Really Good Robotics.
 
To be honest Im more partial to getting our industry up to ar and looking on the craming techs.
Mostly because Vita is not behind at all for most imperial desing while being able to just have a better designed ship. Getting bigger and badder weapons would be useful but having the industry to keep us being buried by a tide of metal is more relevant.
My full wishlist for our new ships:
-[] Improved Engine Designs (150 RP) Based on your understanding of physics and a few old research papers you think you can improve engine reactor thrust velocities. (Enhances ship speeds at every level. Unlocks further speed, maneuverability & stealth technologies)

-[] Streamlined ship design (150 RP) You can improve your tools for ship design to make it easier to design ships in the future. That might be nice (Halves the RP cost to design new ships, may unlock other ship design improvements)

-[] Efficient Equipment Distribution (100 RP) Let's see if you can apply the benefits from weapon packing to equipment (Equipment costs count as 0.9x for ship capacity packing. Especially effective for cargo holds.)

-[] Extremely Efficient Weapon Distribution (200 RP) You did a good job already in packing more weapons into less space. But you think you see ways to make it even better (Weapons cost at 0.75 for ship capacity packing)

-[] Boarding Capabilities (100 RP) Apparently it's common for ships in this day and age to board each other and for the crew to fight hand-to-hand. Instead of, you know, chucking enormous missiles at each other. Insane. Well, it might be a nice capability to have in case you want to capture ships intact. (Unlocks boarding torpedoes, drop pods, and boarding craft for hangers, may combine with stealth research to unlock stealth borders)

-[] Abacus Manufacturing (100 RP) You understand all of the physical parts of an abacus. Now you need to figure out all of the manufacturing techniques needed to actually put one together. (Unlocks the void abacus ship equipment)

-[] Heavy Void shields (150 RP) Your current shields are good, but they could be better. Specifically, you want to make multi-layered shields, which could be applied to anything larger than a destroyer (Unlocks heavy void shields for ships and stations, as well as further research for void shielding improved for recharge speed, layered defenses, etc.)

-[] Gravity Weapons (200 RP) You know it's possible to use gravity as a weapon, though it sounds a bit crazy. But still, it might be worth trying? (Unlocks basic graviton weapons for infantry, vehicles and warships, as well as research for more advanced graviton weapons. Half of the research necessary for Nova Cannons)

-[] The Biggest Boom (150 RP) So. There's no actual upper limit for how big a fusion warhead can get. But it does get more complicated to build bigger and bigger bombs. Let's figure that out. (Unlocks bigger, exterminatus-grade warheads for nukes. The other half of the research necessary for Nova Cannons)

-[] Large-scale Machine spirits (75 RP) As it stands, you can integrate machine spirits into small things. Expanding that to military installations and ships is going to require designing even more complex networks and figuring out how to make them work. With Anexa's insights you think it's eminently possible thought (Unlocks machine-spirit equipped versions of frigate-sized or smaller ships and platforms, as well as most defensive installations. Unlocks more research for machine spirits for larger ships & platforms.)

-[] Machine Spirit Ship Design Improvements (200 RP) By encouraging creative and complex solutions to problems you can use the design-specialized machine spirits to improve your ship designs in exciting new ways. (Allows you to cram more things into void ships, depending on rolls. May unlock further research to further optimize cramming, as well as discount the absolute cost of various categories of ship components).
Sadly nearly 1600 RP is simply too much.
We aren't that far from Denva anymore, so we gotta skimp somewhere by now.
 
We aren't that far from Denva anymore, so we gotta skimp somewhere by now.
Well that is a bit of an overly ambitious list without taking some dreaded rearch turn that, is controversial (it feels like some on the tread took the line of "100 years on a system is too much" and understood that slowing down at all is death).

Of the list the truly essential probably would be large scale machine spirit and machine spirit production improvement, if Denva figured out large scale void industry it would probably be enough to get things rolling, after that void abacus production and, after that the craming techs.

Everything aside can really wait.
 
Well that is a bit of an overly ambitious list without taking some dreaded rearch turn that, is controversial (it feels like some on the tread took the line of "100 years on a system is too much" and understood that slowing down at all is death).
Don't you know? This is Speed: 40k edition, if we slow down we explode, taking this section of the galaxy with us.

In reality we aren't actually exploring if all we're going to do on these planets is look at them, toss a few cogboys and Denva at them and hope they fix whatever problems they have, pillage them, and leave as fast as humanly possible. We can spend several turns here without issue, we're not in an immense rush here and the benefits are great.
 
I think there's three 'urges' that have to be balanced. The urge to go and see what each star has going on and zoomingaround, the urge to actually DO stuff at that star, investigate and poke at things and the urge to go through our research list. And there's been turns where 3/4 actions have been sitting on our butt and researching things. And I feel that is way too passive.
 
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I think your list is a great starting point @LightLan. As a thought experiment, let's break it down into 500 RP bites and prioritize from there. Since we need to get Abacus manufacturing no matter what, let's assume that's a given and exclude it from the list.

My first 500 would be:
  • Efficient Equipment Distribution (100 RP) Let's see if you can apply the benefits from weapon packing to equipment (Equipment costs count as 0.9x for ship capacity packing. Especially effective for cargo holds.)
  • Large-scale Machine spirits (75 RP) As it stands, you can integrate machine spirits into small things. Expanding that to military installations and ships is going to require designing even more complex networks and figuring out how to make them work. With Anexa's insights you think it's eminently possible thought (Unlocks machine-spirit equipped versions of frigate-sized or smaller ships and platforms, as well as most defensive installations. Unlocks more research for machine spirits for larger ships & platforms.)
  • Machine Spirit Void Tactics (125 RP) Fighting a ship is a very different thing from fighting on the ground, but many of the principles are similar. Adapt them. (Improved combat performance of machine-spirit imbued ships and void fighters. May unlock technology for improved strategic coordination. If you want to point your fleet at a system and say "Conquer it, spare the civilians" this is a good tech to have.) Requires Large-Scale machine spirits
  • Gravity Weapons (200 RP) You know it's possible to use gravity as a weapon, though it sounds a bit crazy. But still, it might be worth trying? (Unlocks basic graviton weapons for infantry, vehicles and warships, as well as research for more advanced graviton weapons. Half of the research necessary for Nova Cannons)
I think this is very feasible to complete before our return to Denva, makes our ships smarter, and unlocks a new class of weapons.

If we had time after that, then I would grab:
  • Machine Spirit Ship Design Improvements (200 RP) By encouraging creative and complex solutions to problems you can use the design-specialized machine spirits to improve your ship designs in exciting new ways. (Allows you to cram more things into void ships, depending on rolls. May unlock further research to further optimize cramming, as well as discount the absolute cost of various categories of ship components).
  • The Biggest Boom (150 RP) So. There's no actual upper limit for how big a fusion warhead can get. But it does get more complicated to build bigger and bigger bombs. Let's figure that out. (Unlocks bigger, exterminatus-grade warheads for nukes. The other half of the research necessary for Nova Cannons)
  • Streamlined ship design (150 RP) You can improve your tools for ship design to make it easier to design ships in the future. That might be nice (Halves the RP cost to design new ships, may unlock other ship design improvements)
This would increase our cramming across the board, unlock the nova cannon research, and heavily discount the RP cost of designing the ships. If we had another 50 RP wiggle room I'd swap Streamlined ship design for -
  • Human Design Interfaces (200 RP) You've adapted your simulation software to work with advanced neural implants, but what about your design software? If humans could play with your auto-cad as well as you can then that would help you design or even entirely farm out the design of things. (Discounts design options, may unlock technology to improve the RP generated from humans with simulation implants, either per-person or simply raising the cap.)
- Since that discounts all of our design options.

Just my $0.02
 
Machine Spirit Void Tactics (125 RP) Fighting a ship is a very different thing from fighting on the ground, but many of the principles are similar. Adapt them. (Improved combat performance of machine-spirit imbued ships and void fighters. May unlock technology for improved strategic coordination. If you want to point your fleet at a system and say "Conquer it, spare the civilians" this is a good tech to have.) Requires Large-Scale machine spirits
This seems like something we probably don't need to have before we build the ships, so I'd suggest kicking it well down the road.
The Biggest Boom (150 RP) So. There's no actual upper limit for how big a fusion warhead can get. But it does get more complicated to build bigger and bigger bombs. Let's figure that out. (Unlocks bigger, exterminatus-grade warheads for nukes. The other half of the research necessary for Nova Cannons)
I don't see much attraction to getting this if you're not getting Nova Cannon.
 
On a different topic, this is the list of researches that'd improve our odds/results on scanning the webway.
Better scanners for better scans.
Better stealth to not get caught.
Teleportation for understanding.
-[] Improved Passive Stealth (50 RP) Ok, you've figured out the basics of hiding your small craft, but you have ideas on what you can do better, that might allow them to hide from even fully-alert enemies. They probably won't be able to close all the way to attack range, but they'll be able to get a lot closer (Unlocks improved stealth designs with improved performance. Unlocks further research for advanced passive stealth technologies. Will synergize with other stealth research.)

-[] Empathy at Range (200 RP) Your warp sensors work well on things that are nearby, but they're definitely not able to detect anything large beyond combat range, or smaller things beyond very close range. Maybe it's a matter of improving sensitivity, maybe you need to specifically build some parts of your psychic shield to extend range. (Makes your warp sensors active at longer range, unlocks further research to pinpoint psychic activities from across the solar system. Half of the prereq for basic warp-based FTL communication)

-[] Better Sensors are just Physics (200 RP) You've made some progress on better sensors, but if you're really going to go to the next level you're going to start looking for edge cases. Things that are hard or downright impossible to hide, and will give away an enemy ship no matter its stealth. (Unlocks better basal sensors across the board, as well as improves specific stealth technologies. Synergizes with stealth research, unlocks even better sensors and may unlock long-range sensors to do detailed scans from across the system). Requires Basic Active Stealth.

-[] Teleportation is like skipping a stone (150 RP) Teleporters work by skipping a cargo across the shallow warp, linking two places for a moment. They are limited in many ways. Now that you understand that, you can find the limits to extend range, capacity and think about other ways to utilize the same general idea. (Improves teleporters for boarding, may lead to the ability to directly teleport to planetary surfaces. Unlocks further research for further improving the teleporter, as well as potentially leading to warp portals, which is likely required for webway understanding).
I don't see much attraction to getting this if you're not getting Nova Cannon.
The other requirement is in the step before that in the list that was posted.

But yea, Machine Spirit Void Tactics can wait until the fleet has been built.
 
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The other requirement is in the step before that in the list that was posted.

But yea, Machine Spirit Void Tactics can wait until the fleet has been built.
It is, but the last step which makes the big booms worthwhile (IMO) is not appearing in your list or @Nightlord256's, which I find puzzling. Is it just because we don't have a description for that tech yet? It still seems important to mention, because getting both prereqs but not Nova Cannon would be kind of missing the plot.
 
I think your list is a great starting point @LightLan. As a thought experiment, let's break it down into 500 RP bites and prioritize from there. Since we need to get Abacus manufacturing no matter what, let's assume that's a given and exclude it from the list.

My first 500 would be:
  • Efficient Equipment Distribution (100 RP) Let's see if you can apply the benefits from weapon packing to equipment (Equipment costs count as 0.9x for ship capacity packing. Especially effective for cargo holds.)
  • Large-scale Machine spirits (75 RP) As it stands, you can integrate machine spirits into small things. Expanding that to military installations and ships is going to require designing even more complex networks and figuring out how to make them work. With Anexa's insights you think it's eminently possible thought (Unlocks machine-spirit equipped versions of frigate-sized or smaller ships and platforms, as well as most defensive installations. Unlocks more research for machine spirits for larger ships & platforms.)
  • Machine Spirit Void Tactics (125 RP) Fighting a ship is a very different thing from fighting on the ground, but many of the principles are similar. Adapt them. (Improved combat performance of machine-spirit imbued ships and void fighters. May unlock technology for improved strategic coordination. If you want to point your fleet at a system and say "Conquer it, spare the civilians" this is a good tech to have.) Requires Large-Scale machine spirits
  • Gravity Weapons (200 RP) You know it's possible to use gravity as a weapon, though it sounds a bit crazy. But still, it might be worth trying? (Unlocks basic graviton weapons for infantry, vehicles and warships, as well as research for more advanced graviton weapons. Half of the research necessary for Nova Cannons)
I think this is very feasible to complete before our return to Denva, makes our ships smarter, and unlocks a new class of weapons.

If we had time after that, then I would grab:
  • Machine Spirit Ship Design Improvements (200 RP) By encouraging creative and complex solutions to problems you can use the design-specialized machine spirits to improve your ship designs in exciting new ways. (Allows you to cram more things into void ships, depending on rolls. May unlock further research to further optimize cramming, as well as discount the absolute cost of various categories of ship components).
  • The Biggest Boom (150 RP) So. There's no actual upper limit for how big a fusion warhead can get. But it does get more complicated to build bigger and bigger bombs. Let's figure that out. (Unlocks bigger, exterminatus-grade warheads for nukes. The other half of the research necessary for Nova Cannons)
  • Streamlined ship design (150 RP) You can improve your tools for ship design to make it easier to design ships in the future. That might be nice (Halves the RP cost to design new ships, may unlock other ship design improvements)
This would increase our cramming across the board, unlock the nova cannon research, and heavily discount the RP cost of designing the ships. If we had another 50 RP wiggle room I'd swap Streamlined ship design for -
  • Human Design Interfaces (200 RP) You've adapted your simulation software to work with advanced neural implants, but what about your design software? If humans could play with your auto-cad as well as you can then that would help you design or even entirely farm out the design of things. (Discounts design options, may unlock technology to improve the RP generated from humans with simulation implants, either per-person or simply raising the cap.)
- Since that discounts all of our design options.

Just my $0.02
Kind of disagree. There are things we have to research.

-[] Abacus Manufacturing (100 RP)
is absolutely essential, not only to stick them in our ships, but also so Denva has safeish Warp travel.

-Extremely Efficient Weapon Distribution (200 RP) is a 15% shrink to weapons for 200, and iirc they use a lot of our space, -[] Efficient Equipment Distribution (100 RP) the is also imperative for those reason. Keep in mind with a repair bay we can snap new miltech on our ships easily on-the-go, but we can't do as much with our entire distribution and layout.

-[] Streamlined ship design (150 RP) You can improve your tools for ship design to make it easier to design ships in the future. That might be nice (Halves the RP cost to design new ships, may unlock other ship design improvements)

Will pay for itself with a mere couple BPs, which we will wind up making. Should be a very high priority.

-[] Improved Engine Designs (150 RP)
Our ship is hilariously slow, anything to shore that up is a +.

-[] Boarding Capabilities (100 RP)

Probably really useful, but we can do much the same with a teleporter.

New branches like gravity weapons I'm much less keen on right now, since we've neglected these techs for so long due to the immaterium tech obsessionk and have a huge ship tech deficit to make up for already.

-[] Grand Cruisers (400 RP) is necessary if we want to upship too, it really depends on how it's going in Denva.
-[] Advanced Materials (250 RP) (Unlocks improved armor, as well as research to unlock megastructures. Also required for battleships and larger walkers) also necessary for battleships (might not need for our main ship).
-[] Heavy Void shields (150 RP)

if we want something better than a run-of-the-mill below average Imperial grand cruiser. Not that important, though.

-[] Large-scale Machine spirits (75 RP)
-[] Machine Spirit Void Tactics (125 RP)

Cheap, and important to maximize our CP and be able to control a fleet proper. Must-get.


On a different topic, this is the list of researches that'd improve our odds/results on scanning the
Nowhere near even a priority when we're going back to Denva and building stuff. Full military, ships, and construction tech.
 
It is, but the last step which makes the big booms worthwhile (IMO) is not appearing in your list or @Nightlord256's, which I find puzzling. Is it just because we don't have a description for that tech yet? It still seems important to mention, because getting both prereqs but not Nova Cannon would be kind of missing the plot.
Um, Novacannons are gravity slung nukes.

Gravity Weapons gives us the "how do I shoot this", and Biggest Boom gives us the payload.
There may not be a direct follow up tech needed for a basic novacannon blueprint.

There definitely will be follow up techs to make it better.
 
This seems like something we probably don't need to have before we build the ships, so I'd suggest kicking it well down the road.
That's a fair point, can always patch the software later.

I don't see much attraction to getting this if you're not getting Nova Cannon.
Since we can't see the tech I didn't add it to the list.

-[] Improved Engine Designs (150 RP)
Our ship is hilariously slow, anything to shore that up is a +.
Engines are one of the hull items that cannot be upgraded, so the only way to improve this would be to build a new ship.

Also want to check an assumption. @Neablis, Machine Spirit Ship Design Improvements sounds like it would give a global bonus to cramming. If that is the case do we have any sense for the range?

Machine Spirit Ship Design Improvements (200 RP) By encouraging creative and complex solutions to problems you can use the design-specialized machine spirits to improve your ship designs in exciting new ways. (Allows you to cram more things into void ships, depending on rolls. May unlock further research to further optimize cramming, as well as discount the absolute cost of various categories of ship components).
 
There definitely will be follow up techs to make it better.
We might not even need improvements techs specifically Nova Cannons. Just unlocking category of new weapons, like for example grav-weapons could potentially do the trick.

Consider: Because the Nova Cannon is more of a delivery method for the warhead at "close to speed of light" which is by itself insane, the warhead itself can have different payloads, with presumably often only minimal changes. Canon ones beyond the standard "big explosion" include useful things like "graviometric waves to expose hidden enemies" or "electromagnetic shells to interfere with sensors and communications."

And then we have the scary ones like "implodes into a miniature black hole." Or the ones with Vortex-warheads. When destroying ships the normal way with just spaghettification via intense gravitational forces isn't enough, and you want to literally send someone into hell by shooting them with a payload that rips open the veil between dimensions. You know, usual 40k stuff.
 
I did a bit of gruntwork going through the thread and compiling all the numbers
Just counting d100 rolls that actually were used, including those by Neablis , there's been 145 rd100 rolls. The average is 48.74 We have rolled 4 natural 1's and 4 natural 100's. Which is more than expected.
Just looking at research? We have made 68 rolls, with an average of 42.13. So the research curse is real. 3 natural 1's were on research, but only 1 natural 100 was.
I just did the math to find the chances of the rolls we have gotten so far. In general while the chances of all the d100 in not that out there, the research rolls had a 0.8% chance.
LaTeX:
\[ \begin{align*} &\text{First the chances of rolling an average of 48.74 or below after 145 rolls}\\ &\sigma^{2}=\sum_{n=1}^{100}\frac{1}{100}(n-50.5)^{2}=833.25\\& \sigma=\sqrt{145*833.25}=347.59\\ &145*50.5=7322.5\\& 48.74*145=7067.3\\ &7322.5-7067.3=255.2\\ &\frac{255.2}{347.59}=0.734 \\ &\text{Using a table to find the single tailed p-value gives a chance of 23.15%}\\ &\text{ for a average of 48.74 or below.}\\\\ &\text{Now to find the chances of rolling an average of 42.13 after 68 rolls.}\\ &\sigma=\sqrt{68*833.25}=238.04\\& 68*50.5=3434\\& 42.13*68=2864.84\\ &3434-2864.84=569.16\\ &\frac{569.16}{238.04}=2.391 \\ &\text{Using a table to find the single tailed p-value gives a chance of 0.84%}\\ &\text{ for a average of 42.13 or below.} \end{align*} \]
 
Human Design Interfaces (200 RP) You've adapted your simulation software to work with advanced neural implants, but what about your design software? If humans could play with your auto-cad as well as you can then that would help you design or even entirely farm out the design of things. (Discounts design options, may unlock technology to improve the RP generated from humans with simulation implants, either per-person or simply raising the cap.)

This seems like something we'd do if we wanted a boon from Denva, it is right up their alley. It might be worth it as a one for one trade on an action- one action of research for one action of denva's BP.

-[] Grand Cruisers (400 RP) is necessary if we want to upship too, it really depends on how it's going in Denva.

Given that cramming and grand cruisers both meet the objective of giving us more room for things, is there a reason to prefer one to the other?

The tradeoff seems to be an extra 100rp for a chance to upgrade the bones of our ship.

Engines are one of the hull items that cannot be upgraded, so the only way to improve this would be to build a new ship.

I think this is the big reason I'm biased towards Grand cruisers. We need to be able to run from figure we can't win, as serious probes from other factions come onto the board.
 
Kind of disagree. There are things we have to research.

-[] Abacus Manufacturing (100 RP) is absolutely essential, not only to stick them in our ships, but also so Denva has safeish Warp travel.

-Extremely Efficient Weapon Distribution (200 RP) is a 15% shrink to weapons for 200, and iirc they use a lot of our space, -[] Efficient Equipment Distribution (100 RP) the is also imperative for those reason. Keep in mind with a repair bay we can snap new miltech on our ships easily on-the-go, but we can't do as much with our entire distribution and layout.

-[] Streamlined ship design (150 RP) You can improve your tools for ship design to make it easier to design ships in the future. That might be nice (Halves the RP cost to design new ships, may unlock other ship design improvements)

Will pay for itself with a mere couple BPs, which we will wind up making. Should be a very high priority.

-[] Improved Engine Designs (150 RP)
Our ship is hilariously slow, anything to shore that up is a +.

-[] Boarding Capabilities (100 RP)

Probably really useful, but we can do much the same with a teleporter.

New branches like gravity weapons I'm much less keen on right now, since we've neglected these techs for so long due to the immaterium tech obsessionk and have a huge ship tech deficit to make up for already.

-[] Grand Cruisers (400 RP) is necessary if we want to upship too, it really depends on how it's going in Denva.
-[] Advanced Materials (250 RP) (Unlocks improved armor, as well as research to unlock megastructures. Also required for battleships and larger walkers) also necessary for battleships (might not need for our main ship).
-[] Heavy Void shields (150 RP)

if we want something better than a run-of-the-mill below average Imperial grand cruiser. Not that important, though.

-[] Large-scale Machine spirits (75 RP)
-[] Machine Spirit Void Tactics (125 RP)

Cheap, and important to maximize our CP and be able to control a fleet proper. Must-get.
Cramming is optional, and honestly less important if we're building ships than when we're not because we can just put more stuff on more ships instead of on slightly fewer ships. There's at least one breakpoint where I'd like to see some equipment cramming, TBF. (Super sensor frigate, so that it can have anything in addition to a huge sensor array.) It's a good optional, but doesn't really belong to a must list.

SSD: I want it before designing anything, but devil's advocate it actually takes a considerable bit to pay for itself since we got the MS Design discount. We'd need to design three different cruisers, or more smaller ships, before it'd break even in that respect.

IED: Do want, but the Spark isn't getting any faster and replacing her is a non-obvious move.

Boarding capabilities: Not sure why you put it here, you don't even seem to think it's essential? Admittedly, we could do a pretty funny pivot to a boarding-oriented navy. But outside combat boarding strategies, we probably could get away with only running boarding ops from the flagship and thus not needing the tech for the shipyard period.

I don't see why we'd especially need to go for building above cruiser weight, and we can't refit Spark with heavier shields or armor though we might be able to use them on cruisers. Heavier armor might be a real big ticket considering it's behind a 250 RP tech already.

LSMS: We can afford CP for ships, but with how much we've put into MS I agree that we really ought to use them. Also want the tech for bigger, I don't want to build only escorts.
MSVT: Not needed at build time, do later.

I think this is the big reason I'm biased towards Grand cruisers. We need to be able to run from figure we can't win, as serious probes from other factions come onto the board.
Grand cruisers really aren't good at running, though. If we want to be able to outrun things, we need a new flagship, preferably a smaller one with better engine tech.

I'm not sure that's worth the cost involved. We can probably get away with counting on fighting retreats instead, once we've got some things to fight for us?
 
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I'm not sure that's worth the cost involved. We can probably get away with counting on fighting retreats instead, once we've got some things to fight for us?
Honestly, given our exploration trait, it makes much more sense to just go as huge as humanly possible (by that I mean get to Craftworld-level eventually), and basically be a Macross fleet. That way we fufill all roles without needing Denva, we bring our production and economy with us, and we can be a full-fledged Quarian or Eldar-esque civilization in and of ourselves instead of being a singular agent while not being bound to any planet.

Generally, I think it's a fucking awesome goal to head towards, both thematically and practically. Unless we get really small, we'll always be outpaced by smaller ships and outgunned by larger ones, and on top of that we won't be able to fit anything on it, so there's no point to do so for a flagship. Lord knows we struggle with even a grand cruiser size. It makes far more sense to go as big as possible, rather than small.

@Neablis how exactly do sizes tier here? Grand Cruiser -> Battleship -> Battle Barge -> Craftworld or something?
 
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Honestly, given our exploration trait, it makes much more sense to just go as huge as humanly possible (by that I mean get to Craftworld-level eventually), and basically be a Macross fleet. That way we fufill all roles without needing Denva, we bring our production and economy with us, and we can be a full-fledged Quarian or Eldar-esque civilization in and of ourselves instead of being a singular agent while not being bound to any planet.

Generally, I think it's a fucking awesome goal to head towards, both thematically and practically. Unless we get really small, we'll always be outpaced by smaller ships and outgunned by larger ones, and on top of that we won't be able to fit anything on it, so there's no point to do so for a flagship. Lord knows we struggle with even a grand cruiser size. It makes far more sense to go as big as possible, rather than small.

@Neablis how exactly do sizes tier here? Grand Cruiser -> Battleship -> Battle Barge -> Craftworld or something?
I'm not sure how the scaling will pay off for supermassive ships - as it is the bigger sizes have some advantages, but packing utility stuff into several frigates instead of one light cruiser or cruiser isn't losing very much efficiency. For the line of battle, big ships will mean big armor, which is promising, but for craftworld-type purposes we might do just as well with a swarm of medium ships based on current info. (Maybe there's other info down the line...)


Oh, that reminds me, LSVM might be a must if we're building any off-flagship industrial ships, not sure if we'd be able to update to that after the fact.
 
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