Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

[redpotato4]

If I may, if you really want to do beef up our exploring capabilities then I'd suggest to spend all those points into our Abacus instead. It's more reliable and it doesn't rely on speed-growing a navigator and slaving him/her to the navigational station.
Take some FTL comms as well, and we can have multiple fully automated explorer ships with Void Abacuses for something that's far, FAR cheaper than what you're suggesting.

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-[] Improved Void Abacus (125 RP) You understand how the Void Abacus works now, and you think you can tweak it to be better. That involves some amount of expanding and improving its connection to the warp though, so you're far from certain (Improves your Void Abacus design to be faster and better at warp jumps, though still inferior to an average navigator. May unlock further optimization of Void Abaci, including for cost/unstable warp jumps).

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Improved Abacus is still worse than a Navigator. And getting FTL communications requires at least 525 RP for Empathy at Range, Yelling into the Warp, and Alternative Shield Meanings, and that doesn't even get us there. Plus whatever additional costs fully automated ships would need.

It's 300 RP for the very basics, but I'd much rather have more than the basics in case something goes wrong (Someone rolls a 1).

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I'd like to get Navigator Genetics, but we don't need it, just like we don't need Psyker Genetics to use Cia.

 

[Angle]

The flipside is that we're growing a person, and a person has wants and desires.

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And? How is that a problem?

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I mean, are we prepared to properly consider and care for those thoughts and desires? Right now, we'd basically be raising a person on a spaceships with like, 4 people, plus the tech priests. They'd have no one else their own age, they wouldn'e even be able to go outside most of the time.

I dunno, I think if we're going to raise a kid, we should find a decent planet - which, realistically speaking, means Denva - and buy a house there for them to live in so they can go to school and the like. And devote, like, at least 1 diplomacy action to raising them properly every turn, for 3-4 turns. And then offer them the choice to stay on the planet and not be a navigator, if they want it. Anything less than that just seems iffy to me...

 

[KyleDaScourge]

I'd like to get Navigator Genetics, but we don't need it, just like we don't need Psyker Genetics to use Cia.

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Cia was already around as a healthy adult and we have access to a significant tradition of how to care for psykers. Navibean is a small bean and we've never even seen an adult navigator nor has anyone we've spoken to except maybe that space marine... and we didn't discuss the subject with him.

 

[Asheram]

Our Navigator is not average, it was the best result on the loot table.
Which we can get for only 75RP more.

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And? How is that a problem?

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You keep forgetting, it's a person. It's not a device we can just turn on and go to warp. No it's an embryo, that turns into a child, that turns into an adult. Unless you have intended to servitorize the Navigator immediately after decanting the clone then it's a biiiiiiig thing to grow, care for, teach, and then, if we're lucky, they'll agree to serve on the ship. They might even have a personality that's suitable for the rest of the crew.

 

[Aineko]

That's 225RP to still be less effective than an average Navigator.

Our Navigator is not average, it was the best result on the loot table.
Which we can get for only 75RP more.

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To be fair, we do also want Abacus Manufacturing and possibly improved abacus - for giving to Denva.

I'd like to get Navigator Genetics, but we don't need it, just like we don't need Psyker Genetics to use Cia.

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It's really mostly relevant if we want more than the one, AIUI.

 

[Angle]

You keep forgetting, it's a person. It's not a device we can just turn on and go to warp. No it's an embryo, that turns into a child, that turns into an adult. Unless you have intended to servitorize the Navigator immediately after decanting the clone then it's a biiiiiiig thing to grow, care for, teach, and then, if we're lucky, they'll agree to serve on the ship. They might even have a personality that's suitable for the rest of the crew.

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Exactly, yeah. People are treating them as an acquisition, more than a person. Can't say I'm a huge fan of it...

Cia was already around as a healthy adult and we have access to a significant tradition of how to care for psykers. Navibean is a small bean and we've never even seen an adult navigator nor has anyone we've spoken to except maybe that space marine... and we didn't discuss the subject with him.

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To add to that, with Cia we literally cherry picked one of the healthiest and most stable psykers on an entire planet with billions of people. That's not what we're doing with this navigator.

 

[meianmaru]

I mean, are we prepared to properly consider and care for those thoughts and desires? Right now, we'd basically be raising a person on a spaceships with like, 4 people, plus the tech priests. They'd have no one else their own age, they wouldn'e even be able to go outside most of the time.

I dunno, I think if we're going to raise a kid, we should find a decent planet - which, realistically speaking, means Denva - and buy a house there for them to live in so they can go to school and the like. And devote, like, at least 1 diplomacy action to raising them properly every turn, for 3-4 turns. And then offer them the choice to stay on the planet and not be a navigator, if they want it. Anything less than that just seems iffy to me...

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Nah. Just raise the navibean while traveling. Doesn't need to be a "traditional" upbringing to still be a good upbringing.

You keep forgetting, it's a person. It's not a device we can just turn on and go to warp. No it's an embryo, that turns into a child, that turns into an adult. Unless you have intended to servitorize the Navigator immediately after decanting the clone then it's a biiiiiiig thing to grow, care for, teach, and then, if we're lucky, they'll agree to serve on the ship. They might even have a personality that's suitable for the rest of the crew.

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Worth the risk, at least to me. And if they don't want to, then that is fine too.

 

[Asheram]

Worth the risk, at least to me. And if she doesn't want to, then that is fine too.

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It's still a... what... How long is a turn in this quest? It's a 20 year investment that might pay off, and if we're really lucky the kid won't loathe us for growing them not to be loved, but to be a tool.

 

[Alectai]

It's still a... what... How long is a turn in this quest? It's a 20 year investment that might pay off, and if we're really lucky the kid won't loathe us for growing them not to be loved, but to be a tool.

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So, you're basically saying "Lol it's impossible so it's better they never be born because they have a natural aptitude and that will, apparently, cause everyone around them to remove their capacity for intelligence and go full jackboots?"

 

[KyleDaScourge]

Like, if people want to start prioritizing the navigator, I can get behind that but I absolutely cannot get behind half-assing it to the potential detriment of the kid.

So let's get Denva their gallar fields and void abaci, then bring them in on uplifting this system and we can get the proper tech and go through the proper process of raising and training the kid while simultaneously turning this system into an industrial hub and building ourselves a proper battleship so that when he's ready we'll be set to break out into the larger galactic stage in style and as much safety as can be managed.

 

[Angle]

Nah. Just raise the navibean while traveling. Doesn't need to be a "traditional" upbringing to still be a good upbringing.

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Traditional or not, I think a kid should still have the opportunity to play with other children, and that's not something we can give them while travelling. Add to that that none of our crew have any experience raising children, and I think it's bad idea, yeah.

So, you're basically saying "Lol it's impossible so it's better they never be born because they have a natural aptitude and that will, apparently, cause everyone around them to remove their capacity for intelligence and go full jackboots?"

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I think we should wait until we can go back to Denva and spend several turns providing them a decent childhood.

 

[Picio]

We can always make more of them and rise whole crèche at once.

 

[Asheram]

So, you're basically saying "Lol it's impossible so it's better they never be born?"

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No, of course not, I'm saying "If we do this out of sheer greed then it's likely to backfire." And that it's an extreme long-term investment that might not even pay off.
If. If we go down this route, then I'd suggest we wait until we've got someone ready to be a parent and ask "Hey, would you like a kid?"

 

[Aineko]

It's still a... what... How long is a turn in this quest? It's a 20 year investment that might pay off, and if we're really lucky the kid won't loathe us for growing them not to be loved, but to be a tool.

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Yeah, that's 4 turns. So if we went for it quickly, I'd say they'd probably be an adult before they see Denva.

...They might grow up thinking the most normal people are Vitan tech-priests. That's a little warped, but is it a bad kind of warped?

 

[Angle]

We can always make more of them and rise whole crèche at once.

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That would be better! Though of course that starts to bring up manpower shortages, kids need adult attention too, and if we're splitting attention between 20 of them then that's a problem. Again, much easier if we go back to Denva.

 

[Aineko]

Traditional or not, I think a kid should still have the opportunity to play with other children, and that's not something we can give them while travelling.

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I mean, we could. With In Vitro, we could cultivate some! Or we could collect some from the current system! (If we go stompy boots on any local populations, collecting some children in the process is perhaps the best case...)

I mean, yes, both of those are also a bit creepy, especially if they're specifically for navbean's sake.

(I don't really buy the criticality of other human children being around though.)

 

[Glau]

Exactly, yeah. People are treating them as an acquisition, more than a person. Can't say I'm a huge fan of it...

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I mean, it's not a person right now, and it never will be unless we choose to put some effort in and take them out of stasis to grow. I feel like treating them as a person presupposes that we are already going to make them one.

So arguments that we should never let them be a person because that would be bad for them as a person is a bit confusing to me.

 

[Angle]

I mean, it's not a person right now, and it never will be unless we choose to put some effort in and take them out of stasis to grow. I feel like treating them as a person presupposes that we are already going to make them one.

So arguments that we should never let them be a person because that would be bad for them as a person is a bit confusing to me.

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That's not my argument! I'm down for raising them as a kid - if we do it properly. Which, IMO, means we need to go back to Denva and do it there, we can't do it while traveling.

 

[Asheram]

I mean, it's not a person right now, and it never will be unless we choose to put some effort in and take them out of stasis to grow. I feel like treating them as a person presupposes that we are already going to make them one.

So arguments that we should never let them be a person because that would be bad for them as a person is a bit confusing to me.

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The thing is that we're not letting them be a person if we purpose-grow them because we kinda want an navigator.

 

[redpotato4]

It's still a... what... How long is a turn in this quest? It's a 20 year investment that might pay off, and if we're really lucky the kid won't loathe us for growing them not to be loved, but to be a tool.

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???

It's not like we're gonna tie the kid to the helm and force them to do stare into the Warp even if they don't want to. I just don't think the QM has created some sort of moral gotcha for us.

Again, much easier if we go back to Denva.

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Still need to research In Vitro before we can even start Gestation. That doesn't need to be on Denva and even if you want to raise them on Denva (which I don't think is required) we can still research beforehand to be ready.

 

[meianmaru]

It's still a... what... How long is a turn in this quest? It's a 20 year investment that might pay off, and if we're really lucky the kid won't loathe us for growing them not to be loved, but to be a tool.

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Oh, the prize would be very much worth it if they end up wanting to work as a navigator for Vita. Especially if we start making equipment dedicated to help them. We could travel to actual points of interests we know about on the map, easily and cost-efficiently. And I think you are overestimating the chances they might not want to work for Vita, if we dedicate time to being good parents to the navibean.

Traditional or not, I think a kid should still have the opportunity to play with other children, and that's not something we can give them while travelling. Add to that that none of our crew have any experience raising children, and I think it's bad idea, yeah.

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Eh. I'm pretty sure that we can manage it just fine. Even if its not normal a normal childhood with normal interactions doesn't mean it will be bad for the child.

 

[Asheram]

It's not like we're gonna tie the kid to the helm and force them to do stare into the Warp even if they don't want to. I just don't think the QM has created some sort of moral gotcha for us.

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See, are you really? Because that's the whole "Let's grow us a navigator!" is currently all about.
It's not about the kid wants, it's about what the questers want.

If people had gone, "Oh, we've got this embryo here. How about we gestate it and find a nice family for them back on Denwa, then go check in 20 years if it wants to go out and explore the universe." Then I would have been all for it.
No, the current line of thought is. "Let's grow this chit and we'll have a navigator that most definitely and assuredly will join us in our travels despite how horrible and dangerous warp travel is for Navigators."

 

[MSH]

Abacus should be done this turn because it can be done this turn, even though the gain will likely be small.

As for Navibean, while the crew will have no problem raising them I agree that this should be done around Denva at first. The timelines match up, if we go with my plans, to get the tech side squared away and then decant them as we return to Denva. Turns are 5 years, so we'll spend two to three turns in Denva getting our basic fleet set up alongside raising Navibean.

Then, at age 10 to 15, we'll take them on a galactic adventure. That's reasonable, IMO. We could also pick up some more people to fill out the social roster.

That being said, you don't need that many people to make a village. Plus, our Cogitare are all people of inquiry, and some of them will inevitably want to help raise the Navibean. The main problem is the lack of fellow children. But we will have to be careful, because navigators are not the same as baseline humans and can kill with a gaze.

There are many ways of living life, and although people don't like to think about it, we kind of do demand people have utility. For Navibean, being a navigator is automatically the most unique thing about them. It's almost impossible that won't become a central pillar of their identity and self-image. Maybe they'll critfail out of our Crew roster, but it's hardly a crime for them to have a purpose.

 

[KyleDaScourge]

And to be honest, decanting navibean and then counting on him being thrilled to come along and help us explore seems a little skeevy. The fact that as we'll be the ones raising him we can probably do so in such a way that he does end up feeling that way doesn't actually help that much.

I'd be happier figuring out how to clone him up a batch of siblings and let Denva spend a few turns developing a notable population of navigators, at which point we'll definitely be able to find one who wants to join up. This would also help Denva and combined with giving them some access to the industry we'll be building up while we wait, will probably turn them into a serious competitor to the imperium, at least in this sector.

 

[Glau]

That's not my argument! I'm down for raising them as a kid - if we do it properly. Which, IMO, means we need to go back to Denva and do it there, we can't do it while traveling.

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Easiest way to do that while traveling would be to grab a civilian population for the ship, like diplomats and things for Victan's staff. Would probably be good for Cia too, to have more people who aren't tech nerds about.

The thing is that we're not letting them be a person if we purpose-grow them because we kinda want an navigator.

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Ah, the things about them being a person is that we don't get any choice as soon as they are growing. We can choose to start the process or not, but we don't get to make choices past that about whether they are a person. They will be.