Giving Denva the Void Abacus at the same time as navigators would significantly lessen the value of navigators. Having a lower speed option prevents them from just requesting insane prices for their services. In the Imperium the houses destroy every abacus they get their hands on because it threatens their position so much.
Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
I think the "Reputation" was around how difficult their genetics where to untangle, not how much of an asshole they where.
No, the Imperium does that because the Navigators blackmailed the Emperor, 'give us wealth and power or your empire is fucked Golden Boy' and he absolutely hated that and would have killed all of them the moment his Wabway project matured. Not to say I blame them, naked threats are the only language the emperor speaks and they were just looking out for their own families.
Regarding getting our own Navigator, it seems like having one makes travel much faster and safer, especially at long distances. This pony's "one trick" may as well be "letting us travel to other sectors".
- Location
- Don't know
- Pronouns
- Whats/That
Now I'm tempted to make plans to discover alternate ways to travel through the galaxy just to spite the Houses. Be a good slap to the face among other things.
- Location
- Earth
Give the Mechanicus abacus blueprints and watch the ensuing fireworks
- Pronouns
- Zack
Is there enough room to build the Warp Research Lab on our Flagship?
Only at the expense of pulling something else out. All our module slots have been full for a while.
Though we have a few options for what to pull.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
I can actually see the various Navigators already starting to gather together even back then, and realizing that they could raise the prices if they all come to agreement about them. But almost certainly nothing like the galactic monopoly and disgustingly rich nobility they have going in the current setting.
Anyway, it is likely a combination of problems that Denva (or now the Stellar Ascendancy) will have to be solve early on with societal engineering and politics. If we give them the tech to make more Navigators at some point, that is. Plus technology to compete with them on at least some level, which would also free them up to more vital roles.
I believe it is actually feasible to pay for the failure on this kind of thing beforehand. Not a 100% guarantee because there is always the possiblity of Nat 1 from us and/or Nat 100 from the Scrapcode Generator. But even the consequences of those can be mitigated by paying massive amounts of industrial capacity and research against it. Notice that I said mitigated, not negated. But it is still a risk I'm willing to take.
Because frankly? We didn't even have Scrapcode-resistant shields as a research-option before it escaped our containment. And then the Generator sputtered out, having spent all of its power, letting us to rebuild its prison while hunting down its worms in peace. So pretty much an optimal place to see how hard at minimum even a severely crippled Scrapcode Generator can spike its power. So overall a pretty good result for us considering that we got such a shitty rolls.
The Scrapcode Generator has already been pretty much worth its negatives, because now we've mitigated one of the existential threats of AIs to something way more managable. Or so I'm assuming, but we will have to obviously still wait to see the specifics in the update. Which we can apply to any civilizations we want to uplift too.
Anyway, I would still want to get Daemonology out of it and then throw it into a black hole to see what happens, unless we figure a way to True Kill a daemon first. For clarification, at this point I'm not that scared about the possibility of leaking information. I just think that figuring out ways to True Kill a daemon with a test-subject still available would be useful.
Then Anexa's unique warp-studies research is probably the best place for that. The other option being poking Necrons, which has its own risks. Way scarier risks than poking a crippled daemon in a box.
We can always build it somewhere else and then dismantle/destroy it before leaving, which I think is the sane option. The same with a high-energy physics lab. Now there are two installations that explicitly tell us that a Nat 1 on the Flagship could be very very bad. While probably not game-ending... I would still prefer we do the experimentation elsewhere than on the ship:
Though, hmmm. Enough psychic shielding might do the trick, even on the flagship. ...Still, I wouldn't exactly prefer it. Meanwhile, HEP research lab might just blow our ship in half with a Nat 1, based on the wording. And we can't just mitigate that with psychic shielding, unlike with the warp research lab.
Last edited:
- Location
- Earth
This makes 3 of the 4 possible specialization chosen.
Which is the 4th one we want for her?
AI?
Genetics?
Are psychics included in The Warp or would that be a different one?
We might have to do an expensive refit that rebuilds all the things we're trying to re-cram for that to apply, rather than a tiny refit that only nibbles around the edges.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I mean, yeah, but there's no urgent rush on that. especially since we got the Manufacturing Boon from the SA. Even 10% of the output we left the system with would be significant.
Uh, I don't think it would? We left behind less than 8000 bp worth of capacity. 800 bp is not very much at all relative to the cost of our ship systems.
I don't think our manufacturing boon will be pitiful when we cash it in, but 10% of the current Denva manufacturing is not very much.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
... 8000 BP of capacity and the ability to crash build a heck of a lot more, as well as instructions on how to make it.
They'll be fine. Even just investing one action a turn on that is going to have it expanding with impressive speed.
As said before, we'll probably need to do a refit by getting more cramming tech.
This makes me think: we should probably research abacus manufaturing tech by the time we get back, so we can use our manufaturing boon on getting warp-capable factory ships
You can see the categories in the research posts threadmark (under Informational)
We might want Biology. But I personally am hoping for Physics.
Yes, but that's a complete subject change. My post is a reply to what you said about 10% of the BP we left behind, not a complaint that we didn't give Denva enough to work with.
- Location
- Boston
All this talk about navigators (not just you Dragon, you were just a convenient launch point) has got me curious on what they might actually give us. Right now we only know that the void abacus is well below what an average navigator can do. However, the space marine visit/map might give us a benchmark.
We know where their territory is and we also know that we were their last stop before returning home. Since their chapter is in pressed combat with chaos, I'll assume that even a squad of space marines can't be spared for too long so lets say this was a 10 year (2 turn mission). I'll further assume that this was a quick check on every system between us and their closest world, Pallor, so they were just traveling through as quick a possible. They would likely leave room for the unexpected, so let's say they use 3 actions per turn for just traveling with one floating.
If those assumptions are accurate then they traveled 32 systems to get to us and 27 system to get home. I assumed they did not travel a straight path, looping where needed to drive through every system in Pallor Crossroads, Erydan Span, Braxis Fall, and Zantris. This would give us a total of 59 systems in 6 actions, or 10 systems per action. If we further assume the space marines have above average navigators then I'd say an average navigator could probably travel 7-8 system per action.
Currently we can travel 3 systems or travel 1 system and then explore. If we assume that exploring is half travel distance round down, then with an average navigator we could travel 7-8 systems or 3-4 and then explore.
I realize that is a LOT of assumptions on my part, but a travel speed of 7-8 per action feels about right for an average navigator based on the lore I've read.
@Neablis has also said we can build these modules into other ships as equipment that would cost double the building cost. Would be expensive but could travel with us and would limit damage to another ship. Neablis even mentioned that if we did this (for HEP) he would likely interpret this as us taking more (intelligent risks) in our experiments, so a poor success might give us most of the benefits of a success but the lab ship is damaged / explodes. Compared to safer research on our flagship where a poor success yields little to nothing but doesn't hurt our ship.
I am sure there are crammed somewhere.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Alright putting my foot down on all this bullshit because while some of it is funny, it is misinformation and it will get us damaged at best down the line.
NAVIGATORS DON'T WORK THAT WAY IN 40K.
First of all the Navigator fetus we have in our possession is obviously intended to be a Navis Scion which is the most genetically "clean" member of a Navigator House used as Diplomats/Spies to connect their house to the rest of the Imperium they are interacting with.
Secondly Navigator Houses don't work like historical or present day noble houses. What makes or breaks the Navigator Houses is the ability to produce children with their Third Eye still active. If a House starts to produce more and more Typhlotic children and fails to produce proper Navigators then they become shunned by the rest of the Navis Nobilite becoming Beggar/Shrouded Houses. The only other way for a Navigator House to become a Shrouded House is to be on the losing side of a political infight where the Paternova picked a side.
As such technically Navigator Houses don't have Heirs in the common meaning of that word. They only have relatives, allies, servants and enemies. So that message we picked up? It is trying to intimidate any non-House Klyssar Imperial from touching the fetus while also letting any non-Klyssar Navigator that stumbles onto it that this child is genetically valid leading to it being gestated.
Thirdly if the Inquisition had discovered that Scrapcode Generator in the Nest they would have executed/punished any non-Navigator servants while rounding up every Navigator and sending them off to be more closely monitored. That is the standard operating procedure for Puritan Inquisitors. That is how important the Navigators are to the Imperium.
Fourthly Navigators are not in fact one trick ponies. The Navigator's Warp Eye has the following abilities:
- Warp Navigation which is both the ability to impose their will on the surrounding Warp for fucking light years and the ability to fuse to a machine's/construct's Machine Spirits and raising a Gellar Field like donning a cloak after that in order to facilitate travel.
- Divination which is something each Navigator develops on their own as a supplementary skill to be able to better Navigate the Warp sometimes done with the help of at least some of the following: Warp Antennas, Warp Sextants, Witch Augurs and Runecasters.
- Lidless Stare which is the first ability that Navigators develop when their Third Eye opens and is basically a death beam of Warp energy fired out of their Third Eye which fractured the body and evaporates the mind.
- Paralyzing Gaze which is a modulated version of the Lidless Stare which paralyzes living being and melts Daemons out of the Materium.
- Dreadful Gaze which is even weaker than the Paralyzing Gaze and causes terror/dread in mortals to the point of either fleeing or suffering a mental breakdown. Does fuck all to anything from the Immaterium.
- Corrupting Gaze which is the Navigator holding their Warp Eye open in just the wrong way to cause corruption and mutations. Always causes madness in the Navigator themselves and horrific spiritual damage to whoever is caught in the beam. So long as they are mortal, creatures of the Immaterium can posses Navigators during this and immortals of a more physical bend can just plain shrug it off.
- Penitent Gaze which is actually stronger than the Corrupting Gaze in power but just causes radiation burns.
- The Red Tide which is the Navigator overclocking their Warp Eye and causing damage to their body and soul in exchange for literally evaporating parts of the Materium from their gaze. Usually used not in combat, but for wall/obstacle removal.
Other abilities of the Navigators that are not bound to the Warp Eye, so some Typhlotic's may have them as well, are:
- Cloud in the Warp which is the ability to hide their, and if well trained their nearby allies', signature in the Warp obfuscating their presence to any type of psychic inquiry including Divination. Still completely visible in the Materium.
- Short combat time level of precognition which enables them to dodge a lot of trouble in combat. Needs training as what they see are possible futures, not their incoming Fate.
- Timeslide which is the ability to change the present from one set of circumstances to another less perilous to them and/or their allies. This is them changing the present by enforcing a different conclusion to the past and is really perilous since it is dependent on changing reality itself to conform to a different possible causal configuration. Works similarly to how the Warp Abacus does in this quest.
- The decreased need for sleep as they get older. Still have to sleep at some point, but can stay awake for days before having to go to sleep.
- Contortionism which is something that Vita would not know about as it is a beneficial mutation that some Navigators have picked up in the last 10-20k years.
- Natural weapons in the form of fangs and claws which some elder Navigators develop.
- Heir Apparents also get gills that enable them to breathe first in water, then in toxic environments and then in the vacuum of space itself.
Fifthly the Renegade Houses we are more likely to run into out in this sector also come with Navigator Abominations at their "service". Which would net us some interesting genetic research if we can bag one.
So everything the posts I quoted at the start of this post? Is wrong on some level. If you're going to argue about Navigators at least argue about the facts or something relevant to the quest mechanics like whether Warp Sextants are a specialized form of Void Abaci we can unlock on that research tree by birthing our Navigator bean.
avatar11792
Et Sic Incipit
- Location
- Planet Earth, North America
I'd prefer we build say a Heavy Cruiser dedicated solely to research. It would stay primarily with the Flagship and be equipped mostly for defense: a huck fuge point defense system, heavy anti-boarding internals, some of our best troops onboard and available to reinforce externally if needed. A Heavy Cruiser frame should have more than enough slots for every type of SCIENCE! we'll want to perform in the future. We'll want to keep Bad Guys out so they can't get (or destroy) our juicy SCIENCE!.
Except for Warptech, I'd build a dedicated Research Frigate for that, with multiple self destruct systems onboard and a massive dose of paranoia in its design. More of a prison, keeping things IN rather than our. Figure our fleet, Flagship, and Research Cruiser would protect it adequately. A Frigate frame is still enough for multiple slots, is Warp-capable and thus mobile, but easier to replace if we have to blow it up.
Oh, and if can push long-range telepresence tech that would be perfect for the Warptech Frigate. Then the scientists/staff can operate remotely from the Research Cruiser, leaving the Frigate mostly empty barring anything but extreme need.
Edit: just had an intrusive thought.
Can a Blank be kept in a stasis field, or cryostasis? Do their powers still function if in stasis? If not, we should befriend and pick uphot chicksI mean Blanks as we travel the stars in our pimpmobileI mean Flagship, keep them chilled until use, then throw them at Warp problems we can't handle.
Except for Warptech, I'd build a dedicated Research Frigate for that, with multiple self destruct systems onboard and a massive dose of paranoia in its design. More of a prison, keeping things IN rather than our. Figure our fleet, Flagship, and Research Cruiser would protect it adequately. A Frigate frame is still enough for multiple slots, is Warp-capable and thus mobile, but easier to replace if we have to blow it up.
Oh, and if can push long-range telepresence tech that would be perfect for the Warptech Frigate. Then the scientists/staff can operate remotely from the Research Cruiser, leaving the Frigate mostly empty barring anything but extreme need.
Edit: just had an intrusive thought.
Can a Blank be kept in a stasis field, or cryostasis? Do their powers still function if in stasis? If not, we should befriend and pick up
Last edited:
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
So you only need to justify it in terms of opportunity costs. Because there are other things with equivalent or better payoffs that we can get for the same effort, which we are not doing because we are locked into poking a caged demon.
Two questions: why burger with demonology? What does it actually get us that we could not get more safely and controllably through material means?
Second, how do we determine if a demon we've killed has actually been true killed, instead of just banished? It seems like the sort of thing that you'd need an observer inside the warp to determine.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Daemonology is specifically "How daemons work and what works on them". It is, in fact, the gateway tech to "Dealing with them with material means"
Unless you're saying we can figure out how Daemons work without actually figuring out how Daemons work?