Hmmm, my thoughts on the pyromancer are: Psy-tech enhanced heavy flamer + Juvenat boosted lifespan for training. For when we really want to be sure something is dead and can't use our ship's main guns.
Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
It's one of their higher end applications, like teleportation is in Telekinesis, when the basic applications start falling away in favor of the more esoteric interpretations of the core Discipline.
Lower level Pyromancy is stuff like "Resistance to all forms of energy damage, firing absurd amounts of fire at things, generating more power by lighting yourself on fire (Which you're largely immune to thanks to the aformenetioned energy resistance), deleting grid squares, coring tanks with a gesture, and somewhere in the middle is "Turning yourself into living flame that cooks off your immediate vicinity grid square every few seconds while boosting all of your melee damage and making you a hazard just to be near.
Pyromancy is very specialized at killing things dead, but it is the Absolute Best at doing so. And there's a lot of Problems out there that Pyromancy can make solving a lot easier--all Pyromancy powers bypass the passive Daemon damage resistance that makes them nearly immune to ordinary weapons for instance, and they're fantastic at taking out swarms of mooks. It's why I say "Champion spec Pyromancer would be an amazing supplement to our team", since she brings to the table something we don't already have--the ability to absolutely stonewall champions or anything we can't just kill by throwing generic bots at.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Unlikely, to say the least. High-level power from what I remember. Probably not a job we should give to a tiny psyker bean at lvl 1. Even if this is aimed at machines, machine spirits and AIs? It is still a daemon, and I don't exactly want to expose a psyker without some anti-corruption measures against it.
However, while the discussion about who to potentially pick as our new bean has sorta taken over? I'm also pretty interested if we got something useful for us (and not just specificially psykers) from the monasteries when it comes to resistance against Chaos.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Agreed, so let's table this discussion until we have something actionable.
Ah, after picking 1 would it be possible to spend a diplo action collecting like-able specialty-diverse lower psychers for Staff?
Universities we could make as part of research collective.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
I'd rather that we kept our psyker crew to a single one at this point. Even if we found something good from the monasteries and if our own shielding helps the psyker? Psykers are, unfortunately, often very unstable even with training. Our actual crew-candinate psykers are probably considerably more stable for their own powerlevel as a part of the package of them being special enough to qualify, but this is just me guessing.
Besides, with the construction of the ship we are basically out of actions for the next two turns (unless we want to drop research which I very much don't want to).
- Location
- Australia
Yeah, my guess would be that additional and/or more powerful psyker recruitment is going to be balanced by exponentially higher risks of daemonic pocession/incursion/corruption and other Warp related backlash/backfiring (especially while we know so little psytech), as well as exponentially faster drain on psychic shields both from greater utilisation of the Warp as well as more and scarier Warp denizens being attracted to a more concentrated and juicy target.
Also, we should remember that these psykers have (to the best of our knowledge) only been training to suppress their abilities and deny the Warp.
While they would undoubtedly be aware of our intentions to try effectively the opposite of what they are doing, our good diplomatic roll probably means they trust us to at least run an experiment of sorts in beneficial Warp usage with a singular or a few psykers, and thus presumably the presented candidates are those who are most personally willing and eager to try and learn how to safely practise their abilities AND are trusted as among the most (or at least sufficiently) stable or "safe" options to risk charting a course such a radically 180 path.
Mind you, that training could still be useful to clamp down on the Warp as a defense and perhaps "circuitbreaker" if and when psychic things go wrong, just saying that any monastery psyker we pick up would almost certainly be starting from scratch (and/or potentially worse when it comes to the Warp: purely following their instincts) when it comes to be eficial or even just safely using their powers, the same as for us.
- Pronouns
- Zack
I wonder if Vita has any manual or instructions/guides for training psykers
Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
That could be our next database query. Might unlock a research project, if nothing else.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I agree when talking about getting another psyker bean - disagree about getting psyker staff. A dozen or so of iota classes provides more in safety benefits for our new bean via having a control group to study and compare to on an ongoing basis than they present risk. These are already folks who have kept under less than ideal conditions, the one thing we can truly trust them to have out of the box is to keep a handle on themselves in the superior conditions that we'll offer them.
Our crew deserves the best. We should give it to them. 😤
Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
I think there's room for improvement here. Spend a research action to pick up Ground Manufacturing Efficiency Improvements and Manufacturing Machine Spirits, and then we should have a lot more CP room to play with. We could also do something like build manufactories *Waaaay* up into the CP we need for the ship, then after we get all the BP back from them and then some, use one of our last construction actions to refit them for manual operation and give them away just in time to clear up the CP for the ship.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Oh good to know. Should get that question out of the way in the form of something like "How does void travel work in the Imperium officially and unofficially?"
Not how Navigators work. When they pilot a ship trough the Warp they first fuse with the ship's Machine Spirit(s), then activate the Gellar Field to entomb the ship with the exception of the bridge they are on, then jump into Warp, then open their third eye and only then do they start navigating trough a mix of metaphor and actual perception of the Warp.
The Paternova is relevant in the sense that he? (always male pronouns so some mix of always male title and the metamorphosis into a Paternova turning Navigators male in some sense) is the standard of Navigators everywhere in the Galaxy when it comes to the metaphor used so if he? is alive when the Navigator child is born he? will imprint a piece of his? metaphor onto the child and we will need to do actions to unfuck that.
Also that compartmentalization implant we can develop for humans/organics means that our Navigators could with enough experience stop using metaphor all together when Navigating the Warp since what metaphor is used by older Naigators is to protect them from memetic infections between jumps.
I'm looking forward to the option to have Vita fuse with a Navigator during a Warp jump and the research we get from that and the option of researching the Navigator timeslide ability.
Im down for low c crew psychers, since im mot that intrested in have a Crew member slot taken by one now, maybe that will change in the update where i get to see personalities. Otherwise im just taking the ones that unlock all the tech on that side, and the narrative of yeah we have each discipline of psycher her just not super powerful.
- Location
- Don't know
- Pronouns
- Whats/That
Now I'm wondering other kind of benefits Vita will get from crew. It's obvious we can have 100 on hand to operate a factory planet-side to keep some CP free. Though would they be able to operate an orbital manufactory? I didn't see that in the blueprints available
- Location
- Boston
@Alectai and @meianmaru, I was looking at the build plan you put together and I think we can get more blood BP from the stone. If we research:
If this gives the same 20% CP reduction that our orbital factories got, that would free up (66 Ground Manufactories + 50 New Ones = 116 * 50 CP = 5,800 CP * 20% saving ) 1160 CP.
With Manufactories costing 40 CP we could then afford another 20 manufactories (525 CP per 10 with shuttles and spaceports) and end with 11,570 of 12,000 CP (includes our new ship) and 8,350 BP per action. This would net us a total of 36,100 BP over the two turns, for the same 6 actions, but would eat 50 RP and could fall through to a bad roll.
Thoughts?
Edit: I don't think either of our maths takes into account CP reduction we will get from switching to machine spirit bots
If this gives the same 20% CP reduction that our orbital factories got, that would free up (66 Ground Manufactories + 50 New Ones = 116 * 50 CP = 5,800 CP * 20% saving ) 1160 CP.
With Manufactories costing 40 CP we could then afford another 20 manufactories (525 CP per 10 with shuttles and spaceports) and end with 11,570 of 12,000 CP (includes our new ship) and 8,350 BP per action. This would net us a total of 36,100 BP over the two turns, for the same 6 actions, but would eat 50 RP and could fall through to a bad roll.
Thoughts?
1st construction slot (4850 BP):
43 Manufactory (100 BP, 50 CP) --- (4300 BP, 2150 CP)
2 Spaceport (100 BP, 25 CP) --- (200 BP, 75 CP)
15 Shuttle (20 BP, 5 CP) --- (300 BP, 75 CP)
Trade goods (50 BP)
2nd construction slot (7000 BP):
7 Manufactory (100 BP, 50 CP) --- (700 BP, 350 CP)
3 Spaceport (100 BP, 25 CP) --- (300 BP, 75 CP)
35 Shuttle (20 BP, 5 CP) --- (700 BP, 175 CP)
SHIP/OTHER (5300 BP)
3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th construction slot (7350 BP):
SHIP/OTHER (7350 BP) x 4 turns = 29 400 BP
TOTAL BP:
5300 BP + 29 400 BP = 34 700 BP
TOTAL CP:
1750 CP + 100 CP +175 CP +750 CP + 25 CP + 75 CP = 2875 CP
43 Manufactory (100 BP, 50 CP) --- (4300 BP, 2150 CP)
2 Spaceport (100 BP, 25 CP) --- (200 BP, 75 CP)
15 Shuttle (20 BP, 5 CP) --- (300 BP, 75 CP)
Trade goods (50 BP)
2nd construction slot (7000 BP):
7 Manufactory (100 BP, 50 CP) --- (700 BP, 350 CP)
3 Spaceport (100 BP, 25 CP) --- (300 BP, 75 CP)
35 Shuttle (20 BP, 5 CP) --- (700 BP, 175 CP)
SHIP/OTHER (5300 BP)
3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th construction slot (7350 BP):
SHIP/OTHER (7350 BP) x 4 turns = 29 400 BP
TOTAL BP:
5300 BP + 29 400 BP = 34 700 BP
TOTAL CP:
1750 CP + 100 CP +175 CP +750 CP + 25 CP + 75 CP = 2875 CP
Edit: I don't think either of our maths takes into account CP reduction we will get from switching to machine spirit bots
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- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
We can also (if we want) get this research as well as the manufactory research in the same action to reduce our CP expenditure on our shuttles by half
At our current quantity, it'd go from taking up 300CP -> 150CP, giving us more room for either more shuttles or manufactories.
Alright. I have been thoroughly proven wrong: there is a foresight mechanic planned. One designed by the QM. Meaning it will be created with game balance in mind. Meaning it will, at the high end, be equally as lucrative and useful as the others, and likely NOT an explicitly better option.
My main point remains: whatever we get will not be what the Farseer councils have. Human and Eldar merits of Psykery are different, and so are the traditions and skill levels of the two races. The Eldar have sixty million years of developing their Divination. Humanity has maybe 10,000 and likely less, if they still into use what the Emperor provided and haven't experimented to discover more effective methods.
Even if it somehow is what the Farseers have, the Farseers usually cause the very catastrophe they were seeking to prevent in Canon, as far as I've seen.
So don't look to the Eldar as evidence that the Diviner is the best option. The QM will likely keep them balanced, or we'd never choose any other option- which isn't good game making. And from what I've seen, they craft excellent games. It'll be more balanced than "Diviner = best option".
Beyond that, I will concede I was wrong. Thank you for the corrections; I hadn't seen that statement from the QM.
My main point remains: whatever we get will not be what the Farseer councils have. Human and Eldar merits of Psykery are different, and so are the traditions and skill levels of the two races. The Eldar have sixty million years of developing their Divination. Humanity has maybe 10,000 and likely less, if they still into use what the Emperor provided and haven't experimented to discover more effective methods.
Even if it somehow is what the Farseers have, the Farseers usually cause the very catastrophe they were seeking to prevent in Canon, as far as I've seen.
So don't look to the Eldar as evidence that the Diviner is the best option. The QM will likely keep them balanced, or we'd never choose any other option- which isn't good game making. And from what I've seen, they craft excellent games. It'll be more balanced than "Diviner = best option".
Beyond that, I will concede I was wrong. Thank you for the corrections; I hadn't seen that statement from the QM.
Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
We should also pick up Manufacturing Machine Spirits:
We got a 90% reduction on CP for bots from the first machine spirit research. I doubt we'll get anything nearly that strong with a second one, but I think we could get close. We'd also have two different techs that we'd need to fail rolls for to be left high and dry, which is pretty unlikely.
I's also like to reccommend overbuilding Manufactories into the CP we would otherwise save for the ship, and then refitting them for manual operation when we're done with them, or just abandoning them if necessary - they pay themselves off in two actions, and one action is sufficient to refit them, so we could come out ahead in BP that way if we get them a mere 4 build actions ahead of time - and we're planning to use 6 build actions for the ship.
Shuttles don't actually take up that much RP - it's a mere 5 CP per manufactory, versus the 50 CP for the manufactory itself and the 2.5 for the spaceport capacity. The shuttle automation is also comparatively expensive, costing as much RP as the GMEI and MMS combined.
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One thing to note, those results are what happens if we get a normal success or above which is to say 84% of the time, while that is not bad odds it is also far from a sure thing and when we are working on a budget this tight it should be considered I think.
- Location
- Boston
I'm not sure if the machine spirit research would automatically apply or not, we'd probably have to refit the plants like with the bots.
Agreed, @DragonParadox. We should also be aware that we are building ourselves into a CP corner even with the base plan. I still think they are the best way forward, but we should start brainstorming how(and what) we want to divest. I think @Neablis said we could refit the plants for human worker at 50% cost, but I can't remember. Something to chew on as the turns go by.
Another question @Neablis. The heavy shield tech says it will unlock heavy shields.
But our small system monitor already has heavy shields (and armor), is this ship an exception we already have in our databanks? or do we already have Heavy Shields / Armor for frigates?
Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
If we also research Manufacturing Machine Spirits, then we'd have to fail two different technologies to have problems - and the odds of that are very low.
Maybe so, but that should be manageable - especially if we overbuild manufactories, so we have extra BP to spend on refits. Like:
1 research action: Research GMEI and MMS
2 or 3 build actions: Build as many manufactories and their associated spaceports and shuttles as our CP can handle, using the benefits from GMEI and MMS, any extra BP goes into the ship.
Next turn:
3 or 4 build actions: Build the ship, refit or abandon manufactories as necessary to clear up the CP to run it.
@Neablis: Can we spend BP to safely mothball a manufactory as part of a build action? If so, how many BP?
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- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
Huh, I think I'm noticing a discrepancy in our flagship's design.
This was from the ship design thing in turn 16 (just before we started designing our grand crusier) and it's output is 1/10 of the base hull cost.
Going off of the base cost for Spark of The Ancients, we should (or will be) making about 1,200BP per construction action (which is pretty good for a grand cruiser).
But turn 16.5 while we're designing our flagship, it's gone down to a base output of 500BP, that's more than half our theoretical output that's disappeared.
Did something happen between Turn 16 and 16.5 to cause our Manufactories to lose ~50% of their output?
Edit: Wait I may be stupid.
This was from the ship design thing in turn 16 (just before we started designing our grand crusier) and it's output is 1/10 of the base hull cost.
Going off of the base cost for Spark of The Ancients, we should (or will be) making about 1,200BP per construction action (which is pretty good for a grand cruiser).
But turn 16.5 while we're designing our flagship, it's gone down to a base output of 500BP, that's more than half our theoretical output that's disappeared.
Did something happen between Turn 16 and 16.5 to cause our Manufactories to lose ~50% of their output?
Edit: Wait I may be stupid.