Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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If we want to rapidly scale our RP, we might be better off making ground side manufactories for a while, then using one action to build as many spacelorts as we need to put their RP in orbit, and another action or two to actually build the ship? With ground side manufactories paying for themselves in two actions, plus an extra 3/5ths of an action if you also need spaceports and shuttles, that means we can spend all our build actions but the last three spamming manufactories and still come out ahead, so long as we don't hit the CP cap or get interrupted by other things. :/
 
Ok, moving on past that argument. I looked at the blurb and well, the only enemy faction specifically called out is the Dark Imperium and Abbadon. Well we now know our quest's main enemy.
 
Cookiesndip said:
The problem here is that this essentially turns MC-chan into a side character. She explores, does shit, maybe tosses some people to whatever burgeoning federation or whatever that forms in her wake but ultimately she's a non-participant, she's not a focal point of it and the central conflict proverbially solves itself in the background. I don't like that at all. Rogue trader this is not, and it strips something important, a guiding, concrete objective out of the story. Up to now, that was surviving and rebuilding our ship. Now? Prepare for something bad coming up, but after that, I dunno.
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We're going to have to agree to disagree then, because personally?

I'd prefer that. The War To Liberate the Galaxy is way, way outside of the scope the quest is built for. We'd have to, for all intents and purposes, ground our ship and assume the head of whatever successor state we're trying to carve out, and that too would carve out an essential part of the quest. I'd rather keep the scale...well, still interstellar, but somewhere in the neighborhood where we are still interacting with human beings, if that makes sense. If we're nation-building, I want to see the people I am forging a nation out of.

(I also just don't like Xianxia in general. Powerscaling for it's own sake doesn't appeal to me.)

BeepSmile said:
Who here hasn't licked the spider? Twice.
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Well, what's it taste like?
 
I like Denva and I'd like to keep in touch with them, but I'm down to explore a bunch and keep coming back instead of spending all or time here.

Regardless, though, we have manufacturing capacity to scale. If we use our lift capacity to use all our void for ground manufactories, we can afford 46 with one build action, and then 69 with a second. (Nice!) Thats more than enough to hit the BP cap though, so we'll need to figure out how we're getting around it. We could spend an action to research ground manufactory efficiency and manufacturing machine spirits? What I lean towards. We could also work out a diplomatic solution for Denva to provide us workers so we can use manned manufactories, or research OMC, but both of those mean we'd have to find enough qualified workers, and that could be a challenge. We could try using void manufactories instead, possibly with researching the large scale ones, but void manufactories are just so much less efficient at scaling BP I'm skeptical that would be worthwhile. Or I guess we could accept the CP limit and just not go over it? I dunno though, I think wed be best off with that first research option, for GME and MMS. Can pick up med school while we're at it, just because. Put the rest into psytech, I guess. Or improved psy shields. :/

Edit: No, wait, OMC doesn't allow controlling manufactories, we would need a follow on tech for that. So, definitely not an option right now then.
 
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Cookiesndip said:
The problem here is that this essentially turns MC-chan into a side character. She explores, does shit, maybe tosses some people to whatever burgeoning federation or whatever that forms in her wake but ultimately she's a non-participant, she's not a focal point of it and the central conflict proverbially solves itself in the background. I don't like that at all. Rogue trader this is not, and it strips something important, a guiding, concrete objective out of the story. Up to now, that was surviving and rebuilding our ship. Now? Prepare for something bad coming up, but after that, I dunno.

Exploring for the sake of exploring will rapidly become boring, because there is no goal or endpoint to it, and there's always another sector to look into, another people to look into, unto infinity. A quest without a tangible goal, self-assigned or not, will become rudderless, and playing a tertiary role in your own story always sucks.

What I do want is similar, but different. We don't need to micromanage them, but we do need to be a central figure that is the primary thrust of the expansion and combat. We explore/uplift/diplomance/whatever, yes, we get them to join the federation/whatever, but we're also an active participant, taking down threats that they can't, and essentially acting like their deus ex machina (in the traditional sense). We destroy the daemonworld (possibly with backup), they deal with the smaller stuff.

My thought for the quest in general, is that we grow our fleet and we gradually we increase in scope as our forces do like this is a Xianxia, and keep things moving that way without making the spreadsheets too overwhelming, we are an AI after all, and if the Tyranids can make huge ass fleets, we can too with enough research and faith slowly making us into a god. Right now, we see things from the level of an an individual star within the subsector, when we and our alliance take over enough of the subsector and all major threats are subjugated or weaker than us, we'd start seeing the quest from a subsector perspective, repeat with sectors, and so forth. Exploration, diplomacy, and combat would still happens, but at grander scales.
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Right now we do not really need an overarching goal IMO since the short term goal of 'not ending up dead or worse' provides all the incentive one could hope for. Once we are in a safer place Warp-wise we can talk more about what our hopes for the galaxy are. Even then a lot of what we can do is dependent on what we find out there. To give you an example the GM ha confirmed that if we get access to an Necron ship to reverse engineer we could theoretically gain access to their FTL. Non-Warp FTL that can be manufactured by humans is a Big Deal, it's the thing the Emperor was working towards during the Crusade with his Webway Project, the kind of carot that makes sectors defect on mass. A situation where we have that is going to make for a different quest. Another example, we improve psychic shielding to the point where it can meaningfully improve the safety of the Eldar and their ability to use their powers. Congrats you are now a major and respected Asuryani ally and they are in the ascendancy...

We are a researcher/diplomat, how this quest turns out will significanly depend on what we research and who we manage to talk to, there is no need to set out ambitions in stone now.
 
The biggest issue we have with actually effecting the galactic stage is we're alone and it's going to be difficult to change that safely plus we're essentially starting at negative rep with most factions just because of the questions our ship will cause we really need to start building a rep with the imperium the moment we depart.
 
michaell8000 said:
The biggest issue we have with actually effecting the galactic stage is we're alone and it's going to be difficult to change that safely plus we're essentially starting at negative rep with most factions just because of the questions our ship will cause we really need to start building a rep with the imperium the moment we depart.
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That is a solvable problem, make more AI, each of them can provide enormous production and research capacity. Just by the nature of who we are we scale like the Tyranids. But we should be really sure we want to do that before we push that button since there is no going back, no flying under the radar afterwards.
 
Yeah I'm skeptical of Vita ever being able to have any kind of positive relationship with the imperium - or of her ever even wanting to, for that matter. I think we'll need to look elsewhere for allies. Which is alright, given that we're sitting on a planet of them, but it means we'll need to help put them on their feet, first. And before that, we'll need to protect them for a while.
 
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Neablis said:
You're only going to get to pick one right now. You'll need to do another diplomatic action to get another one, and remember that your crew size is limited - and these people will undoubtedly be crew.
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I'm guessing we can't combine the candidates into one three-headed super-psyker (code-name Cerberus)? :V

More seriously though, @Neablis, how "special", "significant" or "powerful" (for the lack of better terms) does a character have to be ineligible to qualify as lowercase "c" crew (which for now I'm guessing is capped to how many we can support on our ship and/or fleet, 500 for now once its completed - although of course, we don't have to take that many or any at all apart from main Crew if we so choose) versus capital "C" main or major character Crew which we are relatively hard-capped at 5-7 (if I remember correctly)?

For instance, could we eventually recruit psykers into our "minor" crew, or will they always be counted as "major" crew? Is there a level of power or some other mechanical or narrative trigger that would automatically qualify them as "major" crew?
 
DragonParadox said:
That is a solvable problem, make more AI, each of them can provide enormous production and research capacity. Just by the nature of who we are we scale like the Tyranids. But we should be really sure we want to do that before we push that button since there is no going back, no flying under the radar afterwards.
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Yeah, for me personally von Neumann Vita is my big goal with this quest. It could really change the whole setting for the better and is such a unique way of improving the galaxy. Most "good guy" 40k quests have you conquer the galaxy, so a bunch of friendly explorers just showing up and giving people the technology and inspiration to lift themselves up is such a cool vibe.

Vita and her kids really could do what we did for Denva for the whole galaxy one space adventure at a time. Of course that will also attract a large amount of attention from the powers that be, but hey what's a space adventure without a little mortal peril?
 
Neablis said:
Ok, I think I've got the dice:
1st: Monastery Diplomacy, 85+18 = 103. Critical success!
2nd: Miniaturized psychic shielding, 39+20=59. Success. (Anexa)

Man, Victan's had some good darned rolls. Hmm. I think you're going to get one candidate offered from each monastery in addition to access to their domes. You've got things they want, after all, and they have a good impression of you thus far,. I think the crit is going to be Victan dangling the psytech you have as a carrot and get them fighting to send their best candidate. There'll be a vote on next update to choose between the characters generated here:

Can I get some more dice rolled? I need 3 people to each roll 4d6. They represent, in order:
#1 - Psyker Gender. Male-to-Female.
#2 - Psyker personality. 1's are less stable, 6's are more personable.
#3 - Psyker Discipline. Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy & Jack-of-all-trades. (They'll start at level 0 regardless. This is where they go)
#4 - Psyker power. Iota-Epsilon. If you roll a 6, reroll for Epsilon-Delta. If you get a 6 again, reroll until you stop getting 6's. It's going to take about 5x 6's in a row to get an Alpha. You won't get an alpha-plus unless somebody hacks the dice roller.

The next update's going to take a bit, since I'm doing some holiday travel the next few days.
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Are Warp Witches on the table once we start traveling?

Cause they are much more frequent than Navigators, are what Navigators make their coteries from outside of the reach of the Navis Nobilite and are genetically the data point that is needed to understand what was used to create the Navigators before the Age of Strife during the Dark Age of Technology.

And since all Navigators are linked to the Paternova trough some weird Psychic power that binds them all does that mean that if we raise that Navigator child we will get data on the Paternova and other secrets of the Navis Nobilite?
 
Dmol8 said:
Are Warp Witches on the table once we start traveling?
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I think a Warp Witch is just a psyker who happens to be voidborn so has a bit more insight into the warp as a means of transfer. After all plain old diviners born dirt-side can also navigate (poorly) if they are skilled and powerful enough. What being Voidborn does is give them a bit of extra affinity so they don't have to be that skilled before they are of some use navigating.
 
DragonParadox said:
I think a Warp Witch is just a psyker who happens to be voidborn so has a bit more insight into the warp as a means of transfer. After all plain old diviners born dirt-side can also navigate (poorly) if they are skilled and powerful enough. What being Voidborn does is give them a bit of extra affinity so they don't have to be that skilled before they are of some use navigating.
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It's the Warp @DragonParadox, even a little bit more of insight is the difference between navigating a ship and turning into a hull burrowing banana tree.
 
Yeah no we don't need to waste the time and effort on warp witches when we already have a navigator anything we could get from researching a warp witch that we can't from a planet born psyker would be prerequisites to mutating a warp witch into a navigator.
 
Cookiesndip said:
It'll take 33650 BP to build, which with 4.6k/action it's 8 full construction actions, if we had expanded last turn, on the other hand, it'd have taken only a single turn. In other words it'll take two consecutive turns of doing nothing but construction to build this pos, and that's IF we don't do anything else. We had a few turns before something double plus ungood happens, hoping that means the 4th/5th turn seems like a bad idea, which it will if we don't sever all relations and research for 2 turns.
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Not gonna comment on all the other stuff, Alectai and others have already done that. But this? It is just wrong in that Spark of the Ancients will take 8 full construction actions. I specifically pointed out in my plan-post the math. It was checked and improved thanks to wonderful Karnax626 on discord (also participating here in the thread), before being posted here. We can complete the ship in 6 construction actions, and still have just a bit over 1000 BP left to do other stuff.
meianmaru said:
1st construction slot (4850 BP):
43 Manufactory (100 BP, 50 CP) --- (4300 BP, 2150 CP)
2 Spaceport (100 BP, 25 CP) --- (200 BP, 75 CP)
15 Shuttle (20 BP, 5 CP) --- (300 BP, 75 CP)
Trade goods (50 BP)

2nd construction slot (7000 BP):
7 Manufactory (100 BP, 50 CP) --- (700 BP, 350 CP)
3 Spaceport (100 BP, 25 CP) --- (300 BP, 75 CP)
35 Shuttle (20 BP, 5 CP) --- (700 BP, 175 CP)
SHIP/OTHER (5300 BP)

3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th construction slot (7350 BP):
SHIP/OTHER (7350 BP) x 4 turns = 29 400 BP

TOTAL BP:
5300 BP + 29 400 BP = 34 700 BP
TOTAL CP:
1750 CP + 100 CP +175 CP +750 CP + 25 CP + 75 CP = 2875 CP
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meianmaru said:
-[X] Final Cost: 33650 BP, 1775 CP

34675 BP budget - 33650 BP cost = 1025 BP leftover
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EDIT: Huh, I forgot or didn't notice the trade goods being produced in the first slot. So add to the budget a +25, and we've got 1050 BP leftover instead of 1025. A tiny increase, but still nice.
 
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So potentian bean #3 is both the least powerful AND the most unstable. Yeah, I think we can safely discard her, as much as I would like our own seer that's way too much risk for very little reward.

#1 and #2 are more balanced, with #1 beeping more powerful but less sociable and #2 the other way around. Both would be good options but I personally prefer a more powerful and more versatile telekinetic, the pyrokinetick is cool but her use is mostly limited to combat.

That said, let's not fool ourselves, we all know that as soon as the word "tomboy" showed up this was already over.
 
Negentropy said:
I'm guessing we can't combine the candidates into one three-headed super-psyker (code-name Cerberus)? :V

More seriously though, @Neablis, how "special", "significant" or "powerful" (for the lack of better terms) does a character have to be ineligible to qualify as lowercase "c" crew (which for now I'm guessing is capped to how many we can support on our ship and/or fleet, 500 for now once its completed - although of course, we don't have to take that many or any at all apart from main Crew if we so choose) versus capital "C" main or major character Crew which we are relatively hard-capped at 5-7 (if I remember correctly)?

For instance, could we eventually recruit psykers into our "minor" crew, or will they always be counted as "major" crew? Is there a level of power or some other mechanical or narrative trigger that would automatically qualify them as "major" crew?
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Narratively powerful psyker abilities should only be coming out of named characters. But if you want to recruit a minor psyker crew then I'll let you do that and you'll get ~20 or so Kappa-grade psykers with a few Iota-grades. They won't be able to do much except use psytech and unlock further research into psytech, but for that purpose they'll probably be better than a singular Crew member due to broader specialties. (i.e. you'll be able to chase all of the possible psytech research trees instead of just the ones belonging to Capitol-C Crew.)

I'll add it as a fourth vote option to the upcoming update.

Dmol8 said:
Are Warp Witches on the table once we start traveling?

Cause they are much more frequent than Navigators, are what Navigators make their coteries from outside of the reach of the Navis Nobilite and are genetically the data point that is needed to understand what was used to create the Navigators before the Age of Strife during the Dark Age of Technology.

And since all Navigators are linked to the Paternova trough some weird Psychic power that binds them all does that mean that if we raise that Navigator child we will get data on the Paternova and other secrets of the Navis Nobilite?
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You don't know that Warp Witches are a thing, though you can probably do a database query about it. You'll end up getting the mechanicus/navigator opinion on them.

Some psyker/warp research is probably required to get farther down the navigator tree, for sure.

I don't think the Paternova will be particularly relevant unless you decide to go to Terra, or your existence is specifically brought up to the High Lords of Terra. Which is probably out of scope of the quest, especially since the Eye of Terror is more-or-less between you and them.
 
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BigFungus26 said:
Well, out of all of these, #2 is the least likely to do something dumb while on our ship (poking our psy-shield, snorting chaos kool-aid, etc) so she's a good choice for the crew.
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She's not a liability, but is she an asset?

If we want to set stuff on fire, we can just print out a thousand plasma and melta cannons.
 
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