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So how do you think the Victorians perceive Katerina? She's a woman, an environmentalist, and an intellectual, but she's also next in line to be their boss. Taking her deal may have been controversial, but now we're an investment, and she has a reason to try to deter Victoria's aggression. If she takes over, she also has to think about ending her fathers military aggression if she wants any good will and support form other nations.
 
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So how do you think the Victorians perceive Katerina? She's a woman, an environmentalist, and an intellectual, but she's also next in line to be their boss. Taking her deal may have been controversial, but now we're an investment, and she has a reason to try to deter Victoria's aggression. If she takes over, she also has to think about ending her fathers military aggression if she wants any good will and support form other nation.
It's going to be a glorious train crash as she is basically the herald of death for Victoria, She's the repersentaive of a massive chunk of what the Vics entire national identity is built on hating. And if the Vic civil war didn't already happen her coronation would have all but guarantee it to happen, when she either tried to rein them in and put a stop to their stupidity or tried to make them less stupid about how they currently operate. In general "best" case for Victoria is a very quick and wide scale purge of what ever group she decides she's not going to entertain and civil war at the worst case.
 
So how do you think the Victorians perceive Katerina? She's a woman, an environmentalist, and an intellectual, but she's also next in line to be their boss. Taking her deal may have been controversial, but now we're an investment, and she has a reason to try to deter Victoria's aggression. If she takes over, she also has to think about ending her fathers military aggression if she wants any good will and support form other nation.

That's a bit of a problem for Victorians down the road. I wonder if she even comes into their thought process at all, aside from an example of how even paragons can have children go down the path of 'villainy' of cultural marxism. More than likely, there's some doublethink going on that it's okay for her to be doing this because she's of noble blood or something along those lines. Or as an example of how a woman's duty is to charity and that the world is her extension of a woman's household.

The big thing is that Victorian culture is already having a crisis of conscience due to being slapped down hard by a bunch of 'commies' from Chicago, and is now in a full on civil war.

For a real life example, the American Civil War redefined the idea of the United States. Beforehand, it was common in culture to view things as being state first, nation second. Hence why they always said, 'These United States', a focus on a group of states working togther. After the war, it became 'The United States', meaning that everyone was an American, with your state becoming less important. Victoria is going to have to seriously redefine itself, either with saying that you can never trust their Inquisitors and those in the shadows if the Christian Marines win, or that their idea of Retroculture is seriously going to have to bend to reality just to continue existing as a nation.

Either way, they're going to have to change, because the next few years is going to be every small power looking at them and licking their lips, thinking they can take pieces of their land back and the Victorians will be too weak to do anything about it.
 
My apologies this is so very late. I initially forgot, and then kept putting it off, until the outage inspired me to run a couple checks.
No, I am not thus mistaking. My point is that as a Russian satellite state, they are not realistically going to be permitted to wage war against a Russian ally. Nor would a Russian ally attack a Russian satellite state without consulting Alexander IV and gaining his blessing in the matter.

As such, while the NCR doubt has the capability to fight against a notional Japanese invasion, or even to invade Cascadia in turn, their normal strategic readiness posture reflects their realities, not their hypothetical capabilities. Alexander IV would not be highly tolerant of the NCR garrisoning that border heavily. If they said "but we need to be prepared to fight Japan," Alexander's eyes would narrow suspiciously and Bad Things would happen to the Californian government.

Conversely, in the normal course of things the NCR's military deployment posture does include the need to prepare for things like pacification campaigns inland (where Russia "uses" California on a significant scale). Abruptly dropping all these activities would attract Russian attention that they cannot afford, because they need this self-coup to strike without warning.

Importantly, California is not a free agent here.

They are not just any nation preparing a self-coup and worrying about an interventionist invasion from across their border, they are specifically themselves, preparing the self-coup against an internal faction of overseers that will have power over them until the self-coup succeeds. As such, their options for troop deployment are complex and constrained.

Their status as an arms exporter with a reasonably competent if partially obsolescent military, and as a covert nuclear power has literally nothing to do with any of this.

Now see, that works great as long as you're confident that you can keep up that offensive.

That is to say, keep up the supply line for a fast-moving military offensive in the territory of a power with superior technology (if not very much of it on hand), and especially superior air and naval technology that enables them to hit your forces with smart weaponry and cut key infrastructure paths both ahead and behind you, both inside your territory and inside theirs.

Furthermore, even if the Japanese garrisons are relatively small and underprepared, the operational area (Oregon and Washington states) is quite large, and traversing it will take considerable time in the face of even minor resistance of any kind.

Over and above which, it is very unlikely that the support bases for this operation could be kept several hundred kilometers away in the Central Valey or wherever, even if the forces themselves are able to make a very long, very fast mechanized road march and be on the northern border with Cascadia before the Japanese have fully realized those forces are moving. It would greatly increase the logistical burden of the operation to do otherwise, and remember that preparing a big operation associated with the self-coup is inherently a risk for the NCR right now. Because the more people and assets become involved, the greater the risk of the Russians noticing what's happening- see above about that.

...

The point remains that the more the NCR does, the more overtly they prepare for a military invasion in "the wrong direction," the more personnel they involve (because you really can't make an invasion work smoothly if it comes as a surprise not only to the enemy, and not only to your troops, but to your own logistics staff)... Well, the more the NCR does, the more clues they hand the Russians about exactly what is happening. And it is very, very clear that the NCR is hoping to achieve some degree of surprise, and indeed needs to achieve some degree of surprise to make this work gracefully.

They are clearly expecting to encounter serious problems and danger if the Russians are alerted to what is about to happen, and even more problems and danger if the Russians deduce the details.

This affects their strategic calculations and makes preparing to lightning-invade Cascadia to forestall hypothetical threats arising from there into a much riskier proposition.

Yes, but you do need a prepared military garrisoned in vaguely the right part of the country. It was hardly a secret that the Soviets had vast armies parked in Eastern Europe, prepared either to invade West Germany and advance to the Rhine.

Indeed, this was one of the least secret facts to be found regarding the entire Warsaw Pact's military posture. Everyone knew it, and everyone treated it as an obvious truism for approximately two generations that the Soviets were retaining the capability to rapidly invade West Germany, or to drop a large army on any single rebellious Warsaw Pact country, in short order.

The NCR cannot, to put it mildly, allow it to become widely known that they are similarly prepared to invade Japanese Cascadia before their uprising in the summer of 2076.

And they are still in the central part of the state/country, not the northern part. Look at your own map; the entire northern part of the state is relatively empty compared to the central and southern parts, just as the inland areas (mostly mountain and desert) are relatively empty compared to the coast except for the fertile Central Valley region.

I'm not saying there are no troops in California north of Los Angeles, I'm saying that California simply does not in the normal course of things have any need to prepare to wage war in the northern part of its territory. This would make military preparations to invade Japanese Cascadia much more conspicuous than they would otherwise be.
1)Imperial Japan is not Romania or Bulgaria. Its not even AU!Egypt.

Its functionaries are not likely to go seeking permission for military operations in the face of provocation any more than the French and British did when they hit the Suez. I mean, this may not be the Kwantung Army of the pre-WW2 Japanese military, but the sort of revanchist sentiment the ruling administration has fostered does not lend itself to predictability.

2)It actually suits Alexander's foreign policy motives to have a situation where Imperial Russia is the Indispensable Man, keeping two hostile allies pacified and separated. Keep in mind Alexander doesnt seem to do friends, just interests. Being able to use the organic policies of one patsy ally to pressure another is precisely the sort of thing that the man would do.

And yes, that involves military positioning and spending.
That's essentially what he did with Pakistan and India, after all, when he sold Pakistan down the river after getting himself invited in as an ally.
Not to mention that Alexander's reach is nowhere as long as he would like. If it was, California would not still be a nuclear state.

As for history, US and Soviet allies came to blows in the Cold War all the time IIRC without asking permission. Greece and Turkey are both members of NATO and have always been at daggers drawn; the Greek rearmament program is aimed fairly squarely at the Turks. Argentina and the UK were both US allies during the Cold War before coming to blows in the Falklands.

Ethiopia and Somalia went to war without asking the Soviets.




3)The permanent strategic posture of the NCR includes policing a number of internal rebel groups according to WoG, in addition to the US interior.

It also involves, critically, keeping Cascadian rebel groups from staging out of the California side of the border, where there is a sympathetic civilian population, significant civilian small arms and chemical/bombmaking supplies, no Japanese drone strikes because the NCR Air Force is a thing, and where capture doesnt mean field execution or slow death in a concentration camp.

This in particular would have gotten increasingly important after the Uprising of 2062.
And even more so with China resurgent and Japanese ground forces increasingly sparse on this side of the Pacific.

That requires a large, consistent military presence on the NCR side of the northern border and the permanent military infrastructure to support that many troops on the border. Large as in divisional strength plus forces, judging from the permanent forces in other such conflicts.
Heavy armor might not be permanently stationed there, but that can change very quickly across good roads.

The Japanese Occupation either got used to seeing large numbers of NCR troops and infrastructure at or near the border, or to getting inundated by rebels walking over the border for supplies.

4) I suspect (speculation!) based on recent performance, that Japan does not have enough of a technological military edge for it to matter here.

And Japan's superior military technology doesnt really get to matter anyway if its on the other side of the Pacific, preventing the irate Chinese parking two dozen SSNs/electric-nuclear hybrid submarines off the coast of Japan and strangling their economy to death. Or trying to stem the increasing flow of arms and support equipment to the insurgencies in South Korea and the Phillipines.

Its worth remembering they literally had to reinvade Cascadia after getting kicked out the first time by an uprising using smuggled arms, and they needed Californian territory and ports to do it.




5) The Commonwealth staged an invasion across ~400km of wasteland to stage an attack on the Welland Canal area and to take Buffalo in a couple days.

They/we did it at roughly a month's notice, without much in the way of logistical stockpiles, using thirty to forty year old vehicles, an eclectic hodge-podge of equipment and weapons, across terrain that had not seen infrastructural investment in 40 years, with an army less than two years old, and where half of the troops involved having been militia on the other side of the war less than three months previously.

Yes, the Commonwealth had the advantage of water transport on the Great Lakes for logistical support, but both the NCR and Occupied Cascadia have intact air and land transportation networks, Cascadia because you cant extract resources without roads and rail.
And the NCR armed forces is a seriousface motorized/mechanized military force with the equipment and training to take advantage of it.

This should be well within their capabilities.

********
I dont believe the New California Republic would want to invade Cascadia, mind.
At least not for the first couple years; wars are expensive, are better done in conjunction with diplomatic and covert prepwork, and they can make holding Cascadia untenable for the Japanese without invading anyway.

I just think they could take the place from a crash start, and will have explicitly planned for that as a contingency as part of both routine military contingency and Purge planning. Just like the US has plans to invade Canada.
And to deal with a zombie apocalypse.



The thing is, preparations for any action against Cascadia would likely make it harder for them to accomplish their current task, which is setting up the planned governmental and intelligence coup to replace the Russian-controlled officials in their government and institutions, and to cut out the less overt methods of Russian control.

*Imagines the WTFery if the coup fails, and Russia suddenly is ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL of the NCR.*
I cannot see a scenario in which that is even vaguely possible now that Alexander and Victoria are no longer rocking plotshields.

Back in the Cold War, it took 17 Soviet divisions to put down the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, and 500,000 WarPact troops to stop and reverse the Czechoslovakian reforms of 1968. These were places where the Soviets had a land border, and were able to bring in heavy armor.
Notably, not a situation that Cali is in.

I mean, Alexander has successfully avoided committing Russian troops to North America for almost forty years.
I rather doubt he's going to change that policy now that the foes on his borders are awake.

All told, we have three (edit: four) calibers for small arms and light weapons, two calibers for auto-cannons (one of which should be either retired or replaced), between one and three calibers for mortars, and three calibers for cannons (two for artillery, one for tanks).
  • Consolidate small arms calibers from four to two: 6.8mm for rifle and SAW, and .50 cal for HMG.
  • Consolidate autocannon ammo from three to one: 30mm or 35mm, being about the size necessary for a modern programmable or guided package if necessary without being so large as to markedly reduce the amount of ammo that can be carried.
  • Increase mortar calibers to two: 81mm and 120mm. 120mm being towed or vehicle-mounted, and 81mm being manportable.
  • Consolidate artillery to 155mm, whether self-propelled or towed. Because logistics.
  • Tank cannon is whatever is NATO/NCR standard: 120mm to 140mm.

Seven calibers.
Not counting whatever you choose for a sidearm, but that's largely irrelevant from a warmaking perspective.
While I do agree that the 25mm is in very limited use, it is also one of the smallest calibers of auto-canon it is practical to make. Furthermore, it is the smallest NATO standard caliber auto-cannon round, and before the collapse was in service with almost every major nation in Western Europe. With all that going for it, it is extremely likely that there are still nations who both use it and would be willing to export it. As such, if we are going to standardize on a light auto-canon the 25 mm is likely to be the best option available.

The 40x365mm round is also a NATO standard round, and also in use by almost every major nation in Western Europe. In addition, it is also the smallest round for which we know proximity fuses can be made without using semiconductor-based technology. This means it is likely the smallest round which we can domestically manufacture proximity fused ammunition for. This is highly desirable for an anti-aircraft/anti-small boat/light shore bombardment weapon, all of which are roles a heavy auto-canon may be expected to fulfill.
Its worth noting that we will have domestic access to 1980s-level technology.
And be able to import more modern stuff. We are unlikely to be limited by an inability to get our hands on programmable fuses.
Not everything has to be domestically built.

Yeah, but we won't necessarily be getting our weapons from a European nation. It's one possible source, but far from the only one, especially since some of the European nations are in quite bad shape themselves.
True.

Worth noting though that Alexander probably thoroughly torpedoed the export trade of the Imperial Russian arms industry after his intervention in Pakistan and screwing over their nuclear deterrent. No one who isnt literally getting the equipment given away is going to pay cash money for Imperial Russian gear that might have shit slipped into it by the Okhrana, and the relative strength of the ruble makes Russian military exports uncompetitive to boot.

Which helps explain the health of the Californian military export trade.
Though they are probably licensing a lot of local production in order to reassure local buyers.
Basically, I dont really expect Imperial Russian tech standards to be widespread outside the core Russosphere.

The problem with the Centauro is a rather glaring one; none will have been built for over two and a half decades by the time the Collapse comes about, let alone the interim until Italy pulled itself back together with the EU.

Furthermore, going by the specs on the page you linked to, the Centauro has the exact same operational range, is a slight bit faster and can mount a slightly bigger gun, has worse armour, and far fewer standard configurations. The Patria can be a mortar carrier, IFV, APC, tank destroyer, C2/C3 vehicle, E-War vehicle, ambulance, bigger ambulance via an expanded hull, mobile workshop, ATGM vehicle, scout vehicle or an SPG.
If you were looking for a modern 8x8 AFV analogue? Try the Artec Boxer.
Explicitly modular, with the drive module and the payload module being built separately and the payload module being fields wappable in ten minutes or so, turning your ambulance into an ATGM carrier or SPG or whatever.

Known variants include ATGM, IFV, SPG, APC, AA, ambulance, bridge layer, command post, missile carrier, recon, self-propelled howitzer, tank recovery vehicle. Operated by Germany, the Netherlands, the UK, Australia, and possibly Slovenia.
Licensed to Algeria for domestic manufacture.
 
I cannot see a scenario in which that is even vaguely possible now that Alexander and Victoria are no longer rocking plotshields.

Back in the Cold War, it took 17 Soviet divisions to put down the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, and 500,000 WarPact troops to stop and reverse the Czechoslovakian reforms of 1968. These were places where the Soviets had a land border, and were able to bring in heavy armor.
Notably, not a situation that Cali is in.

I mean, Alexander has successfully avoided committing Russian troops to North America for almost forty years.
I rather doubt he's going to change that policy now that the foes on his borders are awake.
What I am basing this thought experiment on is the idea that Cali is going to have to remove significant parts of its own security apparatus, government, and military as part of the coup. If Russia were to get wind of the coup before it goes off, it might fail hard enough to end with "disloyal elements have been purged; survivors are fleeing east".
 
What I am basing this thought experiment on is the idea that Cali is going to have to remove significant parts of its own security apparatus, government, and military as part of the coup. If Russia were to get wind of the coup before it goes off, it might fail hard enough to end with "disloyal elements have been purged; survivors are fleeing east".
California still managed to remain a mostly representative democracy even in the worst of the bad times. And these are not them.
The fact that they retained nuclear launch capability in the face of Russian...disapproval, kinda puts a hard cap on just how much penetration the unreliable elements have in the NCR power structure.

Given the sheer unpopularity of the Russo-Japanese Axis with the vast majority of the Californian public, failing hard enough is likely to be more along the lines of "Civil conflict with massive internal damage" than "takeover by Russia-friendly elements".
 
As a quick clarification: you can (generally) count on having access to '70s-level tech, with very limited production of a very few '80s-level technologies that I specifically approve.

Often you have to settle for significantly worse for industrial reasons; witness the Des Plaines, which are delightful, albeit admittedly limited, little murderbotes.

In happier news, my personal life is marginally less shit now, and maybe I'll be able to update again soon. We will see!
 
As a quick clarification: you can (generally) count on having access to '70s-level tech, with very limited production of a very few '80s-level technologies that I specifically approve.
Huh.
I thought we went up to a general 1980s domestic tech level after uncovering and beginning to organize the libraries properly, in conjunction with access to foreign open-source databases.
*checks missile test dates*
Not that it matters, really; most of the things we need to mass produce domestically in bulk are doable on a largely 1970s techbase.

Its worth remembering the F-117, the F-16, F-15 and B-1 bombers, as well as the Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams are all essentially 1970s designs, and both the B-2, F-22 are 1980s tech that flew in the 1990s.
While the F-35 is a 1990s design that flew in the 2000s

A lot of the military stuff in common use, while having been updated multiple times, essentially date back to the Cold War.
We're only beginning to move past that.
Often you have to settle for significantly worse for industrial reasons; witness the Des Plaines, which are delightful, albeit admittedly limited, little murderbotes.
Limited more by politics to be honest.
There were wooden 1940s and 1950s British gunboats with better all round...everything.
Which is why its going to be particularly embarassing for the Vics when the documentaries get out into the wider world :)

In happier news, my personal life is marginally less shit now, and maybe I'll be able to update again soon. We will see!
Yay!
I owe you a bad weather capable lake/sea ship design IIRC; lemme see if I can make time to put that up tomorrow.
 
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*checks missile test dates*
Not that it matters, really; most of the things we need to mass produce domestically in bulk are doable on a largely 1970s techbase.

Its worth remembering the F-117, the F-16, F-15 and B-1 bombers, as well as the Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams are all essentially 1970s designs, and both the B-2, F-22 are 1980s tech that flew in the 1990s.
While the F-35 is a 1990s design that flew in the 2000s

A lot of the stuff in common use, while having been updated multiple times, essentially date back to the Cold War.

Limited more by politics to be honest.
There were wooden 1940s and 1950s British gunboats with better all round...everything.
Which is why its going to be particularly embarassing for the Vics when the documentaries get out into the wider world :)
I'll be happy when we can build cars, fridges and radios domestically and at affordable prices. Yes, military production is vital, but we can buy that for now, then build them on our own as time passes.
 
I'll be happy when we can build cars, fridges and radios domestically and at affordable prices. Yes, military production is vital, but we can buy that for now, then build them on our own as time passes.
Speaking as someone who's lived in a Third World country?
That's not really on the cards for a good long while.
You certainly arent building an electric car/truck on a 1970s techbase.

You can however build a Pershing II solid-fuelled missile with a 900 hundred pound warhead, a top speed of over Mach 8, a maneuvering warhead and a range of over a thousand miles with only 1970s tech.
And then toss a dozen of them at a major enemy's airbase in order to try to keep his planes on the ground.

There's a lot of single use things we can build on a 1970s techbase, or mostly build and import some parts for local installation.
Its the things that have to be used repeatedly where the issue lies.
 
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Huh.
I thought we went up to a general 1980s domestic tech level after uncovering and beginning to organize the libraries properly, in conjunction with access to foreign open-source databases.
*checks missile test dates*
Not that it matters, really; most of the things we need to mass produce domestically in bulk are doable on a largely 1970s techbase.
The problem is that you can't get realistic ideas about what is possible just by looking at the calendar year. The Saturn V moon rocket is a 1960s design; that doesn't mean there was ever, EVER any realistic chance of the Commonwealth being able to build one.

Mass production of fourth generation fighter aircraft is similarly out of the question. Because the industrial base isn't there to make this stuff, and the engineering expertise isn't there to design it.

And if you did create the base and the expertise, it'd take years, and by the time we were done, our loving replicas of 1980s military technology or whatever are just fucking useless because the Victorians are already arming themselves with cast-off Russian surplus (dating back to the 2030s or something) and our only hope is to procure foreign-made weapons.

Speaking as someone who's lived in a Third World country?
That's not really on the cards for a good long while.
You certainly arent building an electric car/truck on a 1970s techbase.

You can however build a Pershing II solid-fuelled missile with a 900 hundred pound warhead, a top speed of over Mach 8, a maneuvering warhead and a range of over a thousand miles with only 1970s tech.
And then toss a dozen of them at a major enemy's airbase in order to try to keep his planes on the ground.

There's a lot of single use things we can build on a 1970s techbase, or mostly build and import some parts for local installation.
Its the things that have to be used repeatedly where the issue lies.
Except look at what Third World countries actually do, economically speaking. They don't lovingly recreate obsolete military equipment that was cutting-edge aerospace hardware at the time, because there's more to technology than "advance to level X." Impoverished countries may be able to build a 1970s automobile using their domestic infrastructure; that does not mean they have the engineering expertise to build a 1970s supersonic jet.

Furthermore, real Third World countries rely on comparative advantage. They purchase arms from other countries, while concentrating their own economic resources on things that will be of use to their own citizens (bulk production of consumer goods and the raw materials to build more infrastructure) or that can be exported to pay for the import of better technology.
 
You certainly arent building an electric car/truck on a 1970s techbase.
I'm going to have to dispute this, considering that the sales on electric cars reached a peak that has not been surpassed since in the US... in 1910. The first ones were made in 1881, though they were not all that commercially viable or practical yet.

Yes, they would have rather limited range outside of cities, but they could be used anywhere there is power infrastructure in place. Or hell, go for a hybrid electric/steam-powered design that solves the long startup time issue by using electromagnetic induction to bring the water to a boil.
 
I'm going to have to dispute this, considering that the sales on electric cars reached a peak that has not been surpassed since in the US... in 1910. The first ones were made in 1881, though they were not all that commercially viable or practical yet.

Yes, they would have rather limited range outside of cities, but they could be used anywhere there is power infrastructure in place. Or hell, go for a hybrid electric/steam-powered design that solves the long startup time issue by using electromagnetic induction to bring the water to a boil.
We also did have solar panels at the the turn of the 20th century, we just had so much oil it wasn't worth investing in at the time.
 
so, read through this quest. It´s really good, though is there any eta when the next turn gonna come out?
The writer, Poptart Prodigy, has said that life's been pretty rough recently, so they had to focus on real life concerns. Things seem to be getting less shit for them recently, so they're expecting a post soon-ish.
 
The problem is that you can't get realistic ideas about what is possible just by looking at the calendar year. The Saturn V moon rocket is a 1960s design; that doesn't mean there was ever, EVER any realistic chance of the Commonwealth being able to build one.

Mass production of fourth generation fighter aircraft is similarly out of the question. Because the industrial base isn't there to make this stuff, and the engineering expertise isn't there to design it.

And if you did create the base and the expertise, it'd take years, and by the time we were done, our loving replicas of 1980s military technology or whatever are just fucking useless because the Victorians are already arming themselves with cast-off Russian surplus (dating back to the 2030s or something) and our only hope is to procure foreign-made weapons.
The quest abstracts a lot of stuff true.

The Commonwealth could probably build a Saturn V if frozen at its current tech level. It would just require at least two decades of preparation and significant economic sacrifice to do so, and access to international trade for some of the materials that would be necessary. Unlike the way the United States was simultaneously developing Saturn V while fighting a war in Vietnam and engaging in Cold War buildup against the Soviets.

More a problem of cost and commitment than actual ability. /tangent.

Note that I have no illusions about producing fighter aircraft indigenously. The requirements to build competitive modern aircraft are as much dependent on a computer/electronics industry as it is on airframe and engine, and computers are not really doable on a 1970s techbase. The Israelis were building Mirage-clones in the 1970s, but those are not competitive today.

At best we might be able to build vintage C-130s(1960s variants) and UH-1 Hueys, but even that is a questionable return on investment.

The investment of resources necessary to build up an aircraft industry at this stage is better invested in stuff with a better rate of return.
Domestic maintenance might be doable with time, but actual manufacturing is easier to outsource.
Thats partly why we wanted trade after all.

What is actually feasible IMO is the aforesaid theater missile industry as an extension of the chemical and munitions industry.
Since your missile only has to fly once for twenty or thirty minutes, and not repeatedly for several thousand flight hours with a crew.
And doesnt need to be miniaturized to fit on a plane if you just mean to stick it on a truck.

We're going to be spamming MLRS and other tactical rocket systems next war after all.
Plus, it probably is going to be much more difficult to get people to supply you with longrange missiles at an affordable cost, without all sorts of strings. The US never supplied the Israelis with Pershings even when they asked, which is in part why they built the Jericho II.

We will almost certainly be incapable of matching Vic numbers in the air, even with loyal wingman-style drones, so killing them on the ground at their airbases is both an imperative to be competitive, and a useful threat to respond in kind against their infrastructure and/or rear area command staff in the event that Vic targeting imperatives extend to trashing our heartland infrastructure.

Except look at what Third World countries actually do, economically speaking. They don't lovingly recreate obsolete military equipment that was cutting-edge aerospace hardware at the time, because there's more to technology than "advance to level X." Impoverished countries may be able to build a 1970s automobile using their domestic infrastructure; that does not mean they have the engineering expertise to build a 1970s supersonic jet.

Furthermore, real Third World countries rely on comparative advantage. They purchase arms from other countries, while concentrating their own economic resources on things that will be of use to their own citizens (bulk production of consumer goods and the raw materials to build more infrastructure) or that can be exported to pay for the import of better technology.
Third World countries generally dont do total war either though; I think the last one was Iran-Iraq in the 1980s.

There's stuff where we'll diverge from real world examples; the fact that we apparently have the recipes to duplicate a lot of that stuff without expensive and time-consuming RnD programs changes the calculus somewhat.
And other calculations come in.

I mean, I'm all for domestic shipbuilding for instance, because we need to recapitalize the Great Lakes merchant fleets as well as the Mississipi River fleets as we open it up. That means investing in modern shipyards and shipbuilding and trained workers along the shores of Lake Michigan, which also translates to a capacity to run a domestic warship program(with technical help).

So you just build the hull locally, and import the electronics/electrics/weapon systems.

But thats shipbuilding.
A special case since we are based on the Lakes and Mississipi, and need to secure a port on the Gulf, and will thus be throwing money at the sector anyway. We get significant synergies and economies by doing it that way.

Im under no illusions about us building tanks and fighters and helicopters for the next war; those will have to be imported.
At best we're building APCs/IFVs and trucks domestically using the same basic chassis, and even that will take time to work up to.

I'm going to have to dispute this, considering that the sales on electric cars reached a peak that has not been surpassed since in the US... in 1910. The first ones were made in 1881, though they were not all that commercially viable or practical yet. Yes, they would have rather limited range outside of cities, but they could be used anywhere there is power infrastructure in place. Or hell, go for a hybrid electric/steam-powered design that solves the long startup time issue by using electromagnetic induction to bring the water to a boil.
*checks*
Nope, that's wrong. Or at least misleading.

You are pointing to a time when cars were an expensive luxury for the rich, not a necessity for an industrialized state or a vehicle available to every worker. That was the only time when electric cars could claim to be a third of the national fleet in the US with barely 38,000 cars. As an economic factor they were irrelevant.
cleantechnica.com

38% Of American Cars Were Electric In 1900 - CleanTechnica

Electric cars were more popular decades ago, but they are experiencing a resurgence.

Once motor vehicles became actually affordable vehicles for the masses, EVs died.
Short-ranged lead-acid batteries are not competitive against gasoline. Its only with modern material sciences, computers and advanced battery chemistries that the situation is changing.


We are at war, and will remain at war for decades to come. Our infrastructure investments are going to be made with an eye to redundancy and dual use. We are not going to make a single point of failure by tethering every new vehicle in the Commonwealth to a power infrastructure requirement and invite Vic saboteurs to literally cripple everything by targeting power infrastructure.

A population that survived societal collapse will optimize for redundancy.
Especially since we will use some of those trucks and vehicles to trade with places (currently) outside the Commonwealth, and parts of the Commonwealth with no power infrastructure.

And you have to consider that anyone investing in Commonwealth automobile production is going to be thinking of defraying those costs/making a profit by eventually possibly extending sales to other parts of the US and Canada as peace breaks out, or is enforced.

Hybrid electric-steam? Thats never gonna happen.
We are not going to be investing resources for that sort of original research, we are going to be importing or license-building existing vehicle designs from Cali and China, Europe, Africa and South America. If they havent found that sort of thing worth building, we're not even gonna try.
 
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What is actually feasible IMO is the aforesaid theater missile industry as an extension of the chemical and munitions industry.
That runs into the same issues of electronics and aviation tho, since point defenses are explicitly one of the things known to have advanced since the Collapse. Russia setting up their equivalent of the American nuclear umbrella missile defenses in South Korea (i.e. not even their futuristic laser beam stuff they have for their navy, but the previous generation of stuff from the 2040s/2050s that they're in the middle of phasing out) as part of their military support for Victoria would raise the bar on just how good (and how many) theatre missiles would have to be in order to be effective, and the most critical stuff for getting missiles past anti-missile umbrellas aren't the high explosives that would be in reach of the CFC but the more complex stuff like high quality engines for improved maneuverability and synthetic radar apertures using futuristic metamaterials for minimizing emissions profiles (and so on).

Cruise missiles (or really most any type of missiles) are right up there with tanks and planes and ships as being military hardware where it's simply nowhere near as cost effective to develop our own second-rate at best domestic version compared to just buying modern-ish gear from the international community.
 
The quest abstracts a lot of stuff true.

The Commonwealth could probably build a Saturn V if frozen at its current tech level. It would just require at least two decades of preparation and significant economic sacrifice to do so, and access to international trade for some of the materials that would be necessary.
Except that two decades of preparation and tooling up would be a period of so much intense effort and change in our economy that at the end of it, we would no longer have a 1970s tech base. Which is kind of the point: we're not operating in a vacuum and talking about us mass-producing some of the most advanced products of 1970s technology just because our impoverished Third World nation that struggles to even feed its people is absurd.

(And before you point out that such impoverished nations have developed their own ballistic missiles before, yes they have, and they did so because they also had or were contemplating a nuclear program capable of making small numbers of such missiles matter)

What is actually feasible IMO is the aforesaid theater missile industry as an extension of the chemical and munitions industry.
Since your missile only has to fly once for twenty or thirty minutes, and not repeatedly for several thousand flight hours with a crew.
And doesnt need to be miniaturized to fit on a plane if you just mean to stick it on a truck.

We're going to be spamming MLRS and other tactical rocket systems next war after all.
I think you are making FAR too many assumptions about what weapon systems will be effective in the next war, and you've gotten on the "big dumb 20th century missiles" thing before. Such missiles are not reliably effective and accurate enough to be decisive without either guidance more sophisticated than we can mass-produce, extreme mass production on a scale we cannot afford, or nuclear warheads.

We aren't going to be nuking the Vicks in the next round of the war, and we don't have an economic base large enough to casually expend hundreds of missiles ensuring enough hits on enemy key targets to put them lastingly out of action rather than doing relatively temporary damage.

We are at war, and will remain at war for decades to come. Our infrastructure investments are going to be made with an eye to redundancy and dual use. We are not going to make a single point of failure by tethering every new vehicle in the Commonwealth to a power infrastructure requirement and invite Vic saboteurs to literally cripple everything by targeting power infrastructure.
Given the nature of the future power grid we're evolving, it seems very likely that our power grid will be rather distributed and redundant instead of relying on single sabotage-friendly targets. The Vicks aren't going to be able to sabotage every solar array and wind turbine in an area of several tens of thousands of square kilometers- or if they are, they've already won the war by other means.
 
That runs into the same issues of electronics and aviation tho, since point defenses are explicitly one of the things known to have advanced since the Collapse. Russia setting up their equivalent of the American nuclear umbrella missile defenses in South Korea (i.e. not even their futuristic laser beam stuff they have for their navy, but the previous generation of stuff from the 2040s/2050s that they're in the middle of phasing out) as part of their military support for Victoria would raise the bar on just how good (and how many) theatre missiles would have to be in order to be effective, and the most critical stuff for getting missiles past anti-missile umbrellas aren't the high explosives that would be in reach of the CFC but the more complex stuff like high quality engines for improved maneuverability and synthetic radar apertures using futuristic metamaterials for minimizing emissions profiles (and so on).
The GM has not ruled, or possibly decided, how effective, or widespread, Russian landbased ABM is, and against what class of missile.

So let's talk about the ABM systems we know. THAAD in South Korea is designed to stop a small attack from the smallest nuclear power in the world.
THAAD is also hellaciously expensive, at somewhere between 800 million and 3 billion dollars, depending on who you ask, for 1 battery of 1x radar, 6 launchers and 48 missiles. The US Army only has six or seven batteries.

For comparison, the most modern variant of Tomahawk costs no more than 1.5 million today despite being in low rate production, JASSM costs roughly the same, and a Pershing II cost the US around 10 million(inflation-adjusted); not sure if that price is inclusive of warhead. You can see the issue, even assuming 100% effectiveness on the part of the interceptor.

Its generally cheaper for the attacker to add more missiles than the defense to add more batteries.
Hell, Moscow has had a nuclear ABM system since around 1968, periodically upgraded; the US response has generally been "Use more missile".

Laser beams (should)work. We kill drones today with them. Killing missiles with them is just a matter of time.
Ground-based lasers in atmosphere are point defence weapons whose range terminates at the visual horizon, roughly 25km or so Im told, which wont help against something like a Pershing, which flies a hypersonic quasiballistic profile:
The pullup maneuver is allegedly one of the fuckier things about targeting it, since it drops its altitude outside interceptor range while still pulling Mach 8+.

There's also the economic argument, which means they have to honor the threat and invest money in defenses for those locations.
Money that's not being spent on fighter aircraft or tanks or reinvested in their economy.
We cant afford those sort of defenses anyway other than for our combat forces, so it makes no difference to us.

Cruise missiles (or really most any type of missiles) are right up there with tanks and planes and ships as being military hardware where it's simply nowhere near as cost effective to develop our own second-rate at best domestic version compared to just buying modern-ish gear from the international community.
Nope, I dont agree. This is one of the places where it is cost-effective: against fixed targets.
Runways and aircraft shelters dont move. Most arms depots dont move. Bridges dont move. You dont need guidance more complicated than GPS/Galileo/Baidu/INS. Maybe radar/terrain comparison(TERCOM) if you want to be fancy.

Spamming cheap missiles or loitering munitions/long range drones allows you to get on the right side of the cost curve.
And cruise missiles specifically hug the terrain, leveraging reduced range of ground radar against missiles in ground clutter.

Throwing, say, 20 Tomahawks(<30 million dollars) and the same number of BQM-74 Chukar drones(1965 design, used by Navy as target drone, and in Gulf War 1 as a radar decoy, costs 128k each in 1983, total <3 million) will cost you less than half the acquisition price of a fourth gen fighter today while paying for itself if it catches a squadron on the ground.

Or forces enough defensive missile launches to deplete the ready missiles available, allowing for a followup strike to get through.

Think what the Houthis have been doing to Saudi Arabia with lowcost drones and ballistic missiles for the last several years.
You spend a 3 million dollar PAC-3 interceptor to shoot down a 200 dollar drone.
Or have to use a 50-100 million dollar aircraft on CAP.

Now if you were talking mobile targets, I'd wholeheartedly agree. Getting the guidance for missiles capable of filling that sort of role is not possible with domestic resources stuck in the 1970s; buy the missile wholesale abroad. But we're going to have to find a balance between what can be relatively cheaply built domestically and stockpiled, and what must be bought abroad.
 
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@uju32

The fundamental problem I think you're missing with your very consistent and frankly repetitive advocacy of long range missiles built using our notional 1970s-80s tech base is the prospect of advances in cheap counter-missile defense systems. Laser or railgun systems may very well have matured significantly, for instance, to a level that permits much more efficient defense of point targets. We do not and cannot know exactly what the situation is there, but it would behoove us not to rely too heavily on being able to easily do things with some brilliant and marvelously cost-effective wonder-weapon... when in reality the rest of the world has known about this exact wonder weapon for half a century and has had ample time and resources to prepare defenses against it.
 
Stuff about economics of missiles and missile defense.
The thing about the economic argument is that the opposing economy isn't quite so much the Victorians as it is the Russians - at least until they pull the plug on Victoria as being not worth the cost of supporting. Which pairs quite uncomfortably with Tsar Alexander's canonical irrational anti-America bias/obsession.

So even if technology and cost remains identical, which they probably won't, I'm not at all confident that Russia won't have the economic capability and willingness to outspend us at the 2000:1 ratio your figures suggest would be needed. Especially if the Tsar can muster up a half-decent justification for missile defense on North America apart from 'fuck the CFC', such as a newly independent nuclear power on the continent with an axe to grind against Russia.
 
Fell asleep writing this.
Except that two decades of preparation and tooling up would be a period of so much intense effort and change in our economy that at the end of it, we would no longer have a 1970s tech base. Which is kind of the point: we're not operating in a vacuum and talking about us mass-producing some of the most advanced products of 1970s technology just because our impoverished Third World nation that struggles to even feed its people is absurd.

(And before you point out that such impoverished nations have developed their own ballistic missiles before, yes they have, and they did so because they also had or were contemplating a nuclear program capable of making small numbers of such missiles matter)
That was a thought experiment though? I thought it was clear.
Not that its impossible; sanctions, or a dysfunctional government, can freeze a nation at basically a given level of technology.
Or even regress them. *stares at Pol Pot*

Still a thought experiment. Dont take it too seriously.

I think you are making FAR too many assumptions about what weapon systems will be effective in the next war, and you've gotten on the "big dumb 20th century missiles" thing before. Such missiles are not reliably effective and accurate enough to be decisive without either guidance more sophisticated than we can mass-produce, extreme mass production on a scale we cannot afford, or nuclear warheads.

We aren't going to be nuking the Vicks in the next round of the war, and we don't have an economic base large enough to casually expend hundreds of missiles ensuring enough hits on enemy key targets to put them lastingly out of action rather than doing relatively temporary damage.
Well its a game and we are allowed to disagree. But these are my points:

1) Soviet doctrine in the Cold War involved theater ballistic missile strikes on NATO airfields to help establish air superiority should war break out.
Both nuclear and conventional missile warheads.Killing aircraft on the ground, blowing up aviation fuel depots and ammunition depots, cratering the runways. Hypersonic ballistic missiles were favored because it made for a very short window between launch and impact, reducing the engagement time for the defense crews or for the aircraft to be relocated.

100m CEP was considered sufficient.A vanilla Pershing II with a warhead of ~900 Ibs and a 1970s terrain-comparison guidance package has a CEP of 30m.Without modern guidance upgrades.

2) We are planning to operate F-16s in the next war, not F-35s.

Upgraded F-16s sure, maybe even with diverterless supersonic inlets and F-22 planform wings and STOL thrust vectoring nozzles and GCAS systems and AESA radar and integral IRST and ADVENT engines and towed decoys, plus or minus conformal fuel tanks?
Everything to make the plane as capable as possible within our budget? Still F-16s.

Estimated RCS of a clean F-16 without external stores is ~1m^2-5m^2.
For comparison, a B52 is around 100m^2, an original F-15 is allegedly between 10m^2 and 25m^2, an F-35 is <0.0015m^2(allegedly same as a B-2 and half that of an F-117), and the estimated RCS for a Tomahawk cruise missile is ~0.01m^2 to 0.5m^2, depending on your source.

Radar Cross Section (RCS)


If missile defence against theater ballistic missiles pulling double digit gees and cruise missiles flying nape of the earth flight profiles is super-effective, human-piloted fourth and fifth generation aircraft will not exist. Especially fourth generation.
Because the battlefield will be too deadly for human pilots who can barely sustain 9gs .


3) We dont currently have an economy large enough to sustain that. Currently. We arent fighting that war with our current economy though.

4) Both Azerbaijan and Armenia, countries with no indigenous military industry and populations of less than 12 million combined, had double digit ballistic missile arsenals at the time of the Nagorno-Karabakh War, with everything from Scuds to Iskanders and LORAs.
Hezbollah operates hundreds of Fateh-110-class SRBMs, now allegedly with guidance upgrades. Its not even a country.

Hell, Iran launched 16 ballistic missiles at the US-Iraqi air base after the US killed Soleimani.
I could go looking for the size of a Houthi missile raid, but I think I've made my point.

I'm not just throwing out some Santa Claus wishlist.
I'm trying to make allowances for what I think we can expect in order to fight a post-sandwich Victorian military rocking hand me downs out of Uncle Aleksandr's closet. And not blowing the budget to do so.


Given the nature of the future power grid we're evolving, it seems very likely that our power grid will be rather distributed and redundant instead of relying on single sabotage-friendly targets. The Vicks aren't going to be able to sabotage every solar array and wind turbine in an area of several tens of thousands of square kilometers- or if they are, they've already won the war by other means.
The grid will (hopefully) be designed with precisely this in mind.

But you are still talking about transmission lines to connect the smartgrid in place in order to connect power backup facilities into the grid.
Im thinking of what I would do to open hostilities in total war with an enemy where freedom of movement is a thing, significant immigration is likely to be a thing, and hitting transmission lines and transformer farms is the first thing that comes to mind. No need to hit individual generators.

Furthermore, places that arent on the grid will still require power to run vehicles.
I dont know if everyone is using battery powered vehicles in this brave new world, or if they are still running hybrids; hydrocarbons are still much more power-dense than even the best modern batteries.

Methanol is 22MJ/kg, ethanol is 30MJ/kg, kerosene is 42MJ/kg, gasoline is 46.4MJ/kg. Lithium-ion batteries are 0.36-0.875MJ/kg.


@uju32

The fundamental problem I think you're missing with your very consistent and frankly repetitive advocacy of long range missiles built using our notional 1970s-80s tech base is the prospect of advances in cheap counter-missile defense systems. Laser or railgun systems may very well have matured significantly, for instance, to a level that permits much more efficient defense of point targets. We do not and cannot know exactly what the situation is there, but it would behoove us not to rely too heavily on being able to easily do things with some brilliant and marvelously cost-effective wonder-weapon... when in reality the rest of the world has known about this exact wonder weapon for half a century and has had ample time and resources to prepare defenses against it.
1) There is roughly 20 years difference in development between a 1950s vintage Scud missile and a 1970s vintage Pershing II ballistic missile or Tomahawk cruise missile, roughly the same time interval between a MiG-17 and an F-15. We are still using the conventional Tomahawk today, just with improved sensors, because its cheap.

2) We know naval point defence lasers are a thing, both IRL and in-quest; the USN is putting the 60kw HELIOS laser on the USS Preble, a Burke-class destroyer, this year. Naval ships, however, are sitting on both significant power generation and a massive heat sink into which to vent any waste heat, as well as lots of water for cooling in the event of sustained engagements. Land doesnt share that advantage.

3)See my point up about the consequences of cheap missile defence.
If human-piloted combat aircraft are still a thing, then you are looking at hard limits to how effective counter-missile systems are, because any system that can cheaply kill a terrain-following cruise missile or a hypervelocity theater ballistic missile WILL murder a fourth generation fighter no problem.

Hell, cheap counter-missile systems would obsolete artillery. Shells are fired on predictable ballistic trajectories, and IIRC its been demonstrated that a 30kw laser will kill a mortar shell.

You wouldnt be able to shell a place with howitzers or even mortars if it had a bunch of cheap 50KW lasers in C-RAM mode burning every shell out of the sky. The battlefield would look very different; everything from fighters to ICBMs all the way down to mortars would either be used in saturation numbers or would be obsolete.
 
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The thing about the economic argument is that the opposing economy isn't quite so much the Victorians as it is the Russians - at least until they pull the plug on Victoria as being not worth the cost of supporting. Which pairs quite uncomfortably with Tsar Alexander's canonical irrational anti-America bias/obsession.

So even if technology and cost remains identical, which they probably won't, I'm not at all confident that Russia won't have the economic capability and willingness to outspend us at the 2000:1 ratio your figures suggest would be needed. Especially if the Tsar can muster up a half-decent justification for missile defense on North America apart from 'fuck the CFC', such as a newly independent nuclear power on the continent with an axe to grind against Russia.
If Alexander is minded to drown us in materiel he can do that no problem. Set us back a decade or so.
But the quest is predicated on the premise that the current superpower has other, growing problems to worry about, and either cant or wont be so lavish with Victoria for whatever reason, same way there were constraints on open Western support for Iraq during the Iraq-Iran War.

Note that its not impossible to deal with a superpower proxy while operating with a tech and resource disparity, its just difficult.
Iran vs the rest of the Gulf, the Taliban vs the Afghan government are both examples that its possible if you have significant local support and are willing to pay the price in blood.

Thankfully, thats not what we seem to be looking at.
So its still the Commonwealth versus the Victorian economy, not us versus the Russian Imperial economy using Victoria as a pretext.
And in that scenario, cost is very much something for us to keep in mind.
 
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