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The thing I'm considering is the fact that even post 9/11 Iraq, after a decade of sanctions and military restrictions, with Iraq ruled by an unpopular dictator, we still required an invasion force of >237,000 troops and 70,000 Peshmerga to subdue the country. Before the insurgencies broke out.

The NCR is a democracy with local legitimacy. Knocking them over is going to be much harder.
Especially given Russia's reputation on the continent. Quickest way to turn the population against a cause is to get Russian support, let alone Russian military support.
One thing you seem to be omitting from the calculation here is that the US's strategic goal was regime change ending in a stable Iraq.
Alexander would be aiming to wreck the NCR and seize their nukes. The first is much more difficult than the second.
 
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One thing you seem to be omitting from the calculation here is that the US's strategic goal was regime change ending in a stable Iraq.
Alexander would be aiming to wreck the NCR and seize their nukes. The first is much more difficult than the second.
No, Im not actually omitting that from the calculation.

I am pointing out that in a scenario where the local government was actually detested by a plurality of the population it ruled over, where the military largely imported everything larger than an AK other than its Scud knockoffs, we still needed over a quarter of a million troops for a successful invasion of a country of 37 million people.

That was a situation where people actually welcomed the invaders.

The NCR's political government has local legitimacy among the ruled. Is mostly militarily self-sufficient.
And everyone hates Russia on the North American continent. Japan might beat them into second place in Cascadia, but everywhere else they're foreign enemy numero uno. People are not going to be lining up to abet a Russian invasion like they did the Iraqi invasion.

You're going to need a lot more than 300,000 troops to invade the NCR.
Strategic aims be damned. Fuck, aims to wreck the NCR will probably inflame the opposition even further.

That's in the hypothetical scenario we're discussing, of course.
 
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If the NCR decides that it wishes to reunite the continental US from West to East in a reverse Manifest destiny one way or another on their terms and if they do not care about the image problem this would cause, the other American successors would have a hard time resisting as California has a major population, technology, and military advantage

It would be the height of irony if we needed to become a protectorate of Kat's faction as a means of stemming the NCR menace as they sweep east.

As for staging out of Alaska?
A quick look at Google tells me that snowfall in Anchorage typically stops around April/May and starts September/October.
Yeah.

I'm pretty sure that Russian troops wouldn't be bothered by the snow or cold. Might even remind them of home. but whatever, you've declared it impossible thus it must be so. you win forever. yay. go enjoy it.
 
true, but the machines would have been designed to work in that weather and the troops trained to maintain it under those conditions. I mean, if Stalin's troops could do it, I imagine a modern Russia could do it too
 
No, Im not actually omitting that from the calculation.

I am pointing out that in a scenario where the local government was actually detested by a plurality of the population it ruled over, where the military largely imported everything larger than an AK other than its Scud knockoffs, we still needed over a quarter of a million troops for a successful invasion of a country of 37 million people.

That was a situation where people actually welcomed the invaders.

The NCR's political government has local legitimacy among the ruled. Is mostly militarily self-sufficient.
And everyone hates Russia on the North American continent. Japan might beat them into second place in Cascadia, but everywhere else they're foreign enemy numero uno. People are not going to be lining up to abet a Russian invasion like they did the Iraqi invasion.

You're going to need a lot more than 300,000 troops to invade the NCR.
Strategic aims be damned. Fuck, aims to wreck the NCR will probably inflame the opposition even further.

That's in the hypothetical scenario we're discussing, of course.

Okay, I'll be General Ivan, the trusted henchman of the Tsar. For this hypothetical, His Majesty has ordered me to crush the NCR so that it can never threaten Russia again.

For the purposes of this scenario, no use of nuclear weapons is allowed on either side. China and Europe are permitted to provide supplies and indirect support, but they cannot provide direct military assistance. Let's begin.

Cascadia has fallen. The Japanese presence there has been overwhelmed, the fleet bases have been captured or destroyed, and the entire Cascadian region is full of armed rebels and NCR special forces groups.

I divert my fleet to Alaska. I order the Russian Air Force to fly to our bases in Alaska, then to our bases in the Arctic Protectorate. I gather all of the modern fighter-bombers that I have available in airfields out of reach of NCR cruise missiles, and I assemble AWACS units to catch any surprise attack. My fleet will operate under the cover of Russian aircraft, ground-based SAM emplacements, and our own naval point defense guns.

I begin the attack by launching massed fighter attacks on the NCR. We use aerial refueling to bring entire wings of modern Russian fighters into NCR airspace. We take losses from surface-to-air missiles, but we are flying next-generation Russian aircraft that are simply better than American F-35s. We kill any NCR presence in the skies, taking whatever losses are necessary in the process.

Then we start bombing every NCR Air Force base we can find. We crater the runways, we bomb the hangers, we drop ordinance on the wreckage. If it flies, it dies.

Then we target the naval bases. Then the army bases. And then the Navy moves in and start firing our long-range cruise missiles at every military target we can find.

When we think the defenses are suppressed, we go for other targets. Nuclear power plants. Dams. Bombers drop incendiaries on forests, setting off wildfires in the heart of summer. Every vital piece of infrastructure in the NCR is going to receive a visit from our Air Force.

And while this is going on, military transports are sailing to Cascadia. Naval vessels guard them from submarines, and our carrier group protects them from air strikes. A Russian Naval Infantry division seizes islands off the coast of Cascadia, and engineers go ashore to build military bases. Nothing fancy, just fortified installations with airfields. Transports land to unload drones and missiles, and the campaign of terror begins in earnest.

Trains. Bridges. The algorithms aren't that exact, but Russia has missiles to spare. Hospitals. Cell towers. Post offices. Schools.

Not a single Russian soldier has set foot inside the NCR. It isn't necessary. No ships move in and out of the NCR's harbors. No planes fly through its skies. Bridges and railroads lie in ruins. It is impossible to conquer a nation through the sky, but we were never here to conquer. The NCR no longer has the ability to sustain military operations against the Empire or the Empire's allies. And if they try to rebuild those capabilities, we will be back.

The troops might not mind, but the same can't be said for the machines.

Elmendorf Air Force Base exists in Anchorage right now. It clearly isn't an unsolvable problem.
 
When we think the defenses are suppressed, we go for other targets. Nuclear power plants. Dams. Bombers drop incendiaries on forests, setting off wildfires in the heart of summer.
Congrats, the rest of the world is now getting involved in the war on the NCR's side, because you are engaging in ecological terrorism and committing legit war crimes, assuming you (and everyone who obeyed those orders instead of immediately arresting you) are not removed from command and court-martialed post-haste. And considering the state of Russia in this timeline, probably shot.
 
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Congrats, the rest of the world is now getting involved in the war on the NCR's side, because you are engaging in ecological terrorism and committing legit war crimes, assuming you are not removed from command and court-martialed post-haste.

Yes. Russia cannot do this now, because the world has changed and the EU and China would impose unacceptable costs for this kind of action.

Edit: Also because the NCR has nukes.

If you go over to the Worldbuilding thread, you can see that Russia has engaged in exactly this kind of behavior in the past, when every other major power was in chaos, and they got away with it. They burned down Saudi Arabia and Venezuela. No one stopped them. No one could stop them.

Russia has committed war crimes over half of the world, and no one has held them to account for it. As long as those crimes were ordered by the Tsar, Russian officers were certainly not removed from command and court-martialed for obedience to their monarch.

They don't want to try it now because China and the EU would almost certainly take advantage of Russia's distraction. But the idea that the NCR could stand against Russia alone seems to be simply wrong. Even without invading, Russia could cripple the NCR just by wrecking the air force and navy, cutting off foreign trade, and destroying major power plants and means of transportation.

Edit: Again, the NCR has nukes. Without nukes, or foreign intervention, they would probably end up as nothing more than a particularly expensive Russian intervention, an example that even the strongest of vassal states cannot rebel against the Tsar.
 
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You're going to need a lot more than 300,000 troops to invade the NCR.
Strategic aims be damned. Fuck, aims to wreck the NCR will probably inflame the opposition even further.
Especially since what, their nearest base is Alaska?

Either they blaze a 2,500 mile long supply line via road (Using Juneau to San Fran via Google Maps), which is pretty damn long, and again, relies on a highway system that no longer exists, which means it's probably more then that, let's assume 3,500 miles.

Assuming they don't want to risk a naval invasion, which carries it's own issues, and they then need to seize a port or make their own, and even then, making a temp port ala the Mullberries takes at least a year or so, and then you need to get it in place, which is a fucking nightmare to do given how badly it went when we just had ot set one up across the Channel.

Much less one that has to get hauled considerably farther, in rough weather, which possibly dodging air strikes left right and center.

So he's looking at a considerable investment of resources just to supply his invasion, not counting the fact that the NCR is likely gonna fight to the last, because they fucking HATE Russia, and don't have much to loose. And that makes it ten times worse, because you know the NCR launch authority is gonna go "Launch the instant you see Russian troops, and damn the consequences", well....

You might find people in Moscow starting to doubt the value of spending lives and rubles just to sooth the Tsar's ego. Especially since they have nukes and pretty little reason NOT to use them.
 
Especially since what, their nearest base is Alaska?

Either they blaze a 2,500 mile long supply line via road (Using Juneau to San Fran via Google Maps), which is pretty damn long, and again, relies on a highway system that no longer exists, which means it's probably more then that, let's assume 3,500 miles.

Assuming they don't want to risk a naval invasion, which carries it's own issues, and they then need to seize a port or make their own, and even then, making a temp port ala the Mullberries takes at least a year or so, and then you need to get it in place, which is a fucking nightmare to do given how badly it went when we just had ot set one up across the Channel.

Much less one that has to get hauled considerably farther, in rough weather, which possibly dodging air strikes left right and center.

So he's looking at a considerable investment of resources just to supply his invasion, not counting the fact that the NCR is likely gonna fight to the last, because they fucking HATE Russia, and don't have much to loose. And that makes it ten times worse, because you know the NCR launch authority is gonna go "Launch the instant you see Russian troops, and damn the consequences", well....

You might find people in Moscow starting to doubt the value of spending lives and rubles just to sooth the Tsar's ego. Especially since they have nukes and pretty little reason NOT to use them.

Nuclear weapons make a Russian attack impossible. In the absence of nuclear weapons, the Chinese and EU response would probably make a Russian attack unlikely.

Without either of these things, Russia could cripple the NCR's military from the sky, destroy their naval bases, sink their shipping, and go home. The disagreement here is whether the NCR's conventional military strength would be sufficient to defeat a Russian attack, not whether the NCR's nuclear arsenal is sufficient to deter one. We are in agreement on that point.
 
Nuclear weapons make a Russian attack impossible. In the absence of nuclear weapons, the Chinese and EU response would probably make a Russian attack unlikely.

Without either of these things, Russia could cripple the NCR's military from the sky, destroy their naval bases, sink their shipping, and go home. The disagreement here is whether the NCR's conventional military strength would be sufficient to defeat a Russian attack, not whether the NCR's nuclear arsenal is sufficient to deter one. We are in agreement on that point.
Oh, I agree, if Russia did a all out attack, the NCR would lose. It's just a matter of how much blood and treasure Russia is willing to spend for it. Because remember, they do have other enemies in the world, and I can safely say if they're spending time and money in the NCR's pacification, well, they aren't paying attention to other places. And that can be bad.
 
true, but the machines would have been designed to work in that weather and the troops trained to maintain it under those conditions. I mean, if Stalin's troops could do it, I imagine a modern Russia could do it too
Nobody trains to fight a major campaign of tens of thousands of troops in the Arctic my friend. Not that Im aware of.
Smaller numbers in the thousands sure. Cold weather certainly.
But the Arctic carries its own issues.

You would be operating vehicles in the far north Alaskan weather where the temperature differentials swing from 85 degrees Fahrenheit in the summer to -60 in the winter. And of course you are also hoping to operate those selfsame vehicles down south in the NCR, where summer temperature get into the 100s.

Its not impossible, but it is prohibitively difficult.

Okay, I'll be General Ivan, the trusted henchman of the Tsar. For this hypothetical, His Majesty has ordered me to crush the NCR so that it can never threaten Russia again.
-NCR weapon ranges, so we're clear:
The BGM-109 Tomahawk has a range of between 1700-2500km for the surface-launched version depending on the Block. Thousand pound warhead, ~900kph speed. The air-launched AGM-158B JASSM-ER has a range of >925km and a thousand pound warhead.
The air-launched AGM-158D JASSM-XR has a range of >1900km and a two thousand pound warhead.

These are all in service today. Those are air weapons.
Less glamorous shit like CAPTOR-mines and low-speed UUVs and cruise-missile torpedoes also exist and pose their own threat to ships in littoral waters.

-If Cascadia has fallen? That puts Elmendorf AFB in airstrike range with JASSMs. Hell, that puts it in groundlaunched Tomahawk range, and thats the cheapest ground-launch capable cruise missile in US inventory. The best place to kill an enemys air force has always been on the ground after all.
And the weather being what it is, you cant actually disperse aircraft in Arctic basing, whether in Alaska or the Conservatiate.

Californian weather is much more forgiving that way. As long as the wildfires arent burning, that is.
Assuming the Green govt hasnt fixed that.

-The Arctic Conservatiate is well out of basing range for fighters striking into the NCR anyway from what I can tell about CFB basing.
Gonna need to deploy your B-21skis if you are willing to risk them.

-No island basing off the coast of Cascadia that is outside range of counterstrikes. Everything from UUVs to mines to aerial drone and missile strikes. Artillery even, if the US Army ever did get that 1000 mile supergun into service in this TL. And the port facilities necessary to handle the logistics requirements of a full out Linebacker II style bombing campaign you are proposing are fairly mind-boggling, frankly.

-The NCR has just tied down your military and a large chunk of your merchant marine for the better part of two years at a minimum.
Just the buildup to expand whatever basing exists in the Arctic to handle the throughput of a large chunk of your AF in Arctic/near-Arctic conditions is going to take time. Time and materials and skilled personnel you will have had to strip from your commitments elsewhere.

That can be an eternity in geopolitics.

Hope the rest of the Russian Empire does not need any of that stuff in the meantime.
And that none of the neighbors have any ambitions. Or the Ukrainians/Estonians/Latvians/Lithuanians/Central Asians/Arabs who were conquered. Or your clientstates allies.

White room affair Imperial Russia without plot shields may well beat California eventually if they are willing to pay the price in money and years and industrial commitment. May. Given the distance and shit California has a good chance of standing them off.
But in the current geopolitical situation they cannot afford to try.

My opinion.
 
Yes. Russia cannot do this now, because the world has changed and the EU and China would impose unacceptable costs for this kind of action.

Edit: Also because the NCR has nukes.

If you go over to the Worldbuilding thread, you can see that Russia has engaged in exactly this kind of behavior in the past, when every other major power was in chaos, and they got away with it. They burned down Saudi Arabia and Venezuela. No one stopped them. No one could stop them.

Russia has committed war crimes over half of the world, and no one has held them to account for it. As long as those crimes were ordered by the Tsar, Russian officers were certainly not removed from command and court-martialed for obedience to their monarch.

They don't want to try it now because China and the EU would almost certainly take advantage of Russia's distraction. But the idea that the NCR could stand against Russia alone seems to be simply wrong. Even without invading, Russia could cripple the NCR just by wrecking the air force and navy, cutting off foreign trade, and destroying major power plants and means of transportation.

Edit: Again, the NCR has nukes. Without nukes, or foreign intervention, they would probably end up as nothing more than a particularly expensive Russian intervention, an example that even the strongest of vassal states cannot rebel against the Tsar.
Note:
Saudi Arabia was basically next door to a Russia that had knocked over Azerbaijan and Armenia, they had local basing in Syria, support from Iran, and they STILL had to land troops to finish the job. Venezuela was unstable.
The NCR is neither of those things as described.

If California was in Saudi Arabia's place they'd suffer much the same fate in the absence of WMDs.
But they're half a world away, 11,000 km from the closest major Russian seabase, at the end of a very long logistics supply chain.

Distance protects them from conventional military action by Imperial Russia in a way it doesnt any other of Alexander's victims, especially since Russia is primarily a land power. Japan has China looming over its shoulder. And Victoria's army is Dead.
Again, my opinion.

EDIT
Operation Iraqi Freedom allegedly cost $90.3 billion for a several months long buildup and a month-long war. Allegedly.
 
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Nobody trains to fight a major campaign of tens of thousands of troops in the Arctic my friend. Not that Im aware of.
Smaller numbers in the thousands sure. Cold weather certainly.
But the Arctic carries its own issues.

The Winter War says hello!

You would be operating vehicles in the far north Alaskan weather where the temperature differentials swing from 85 degrees Fahrenheit in the summer to -60 in the winter. And of course you are also hoping to operate those selfsame vehicles down south in the NCR, where summer temperature get into the 100s.

Both America and Russia have Air Force bases in the far north. This is a solved problem in our time; another generation of improvement will only make it easier.

-NCR weapon ranges, so we're clear:
The BGM-109 Tomahawk has a range of between 1700-2500km for the surface-launched version depending on the Block. Thousand pound warhead, ~900kph speed. The air-launched AGM-158B JASSM-ER has a range of >925km and a thousand pound warhead.
The air-launched AGM-158D JASSM-XR has a range of >1900km and a two thousand pound warhead.

These are all in service today. Those are air weapons.

By WoP, there has been an entire generation of improvement in military technology between now and then. Anti-missile lasers are now a thing.

Less glamorous shit like CAPTOR-mines and low-speed UUVs and cruise-missile torpedoes also exist and pose their own threat to ships in littoral waters.

The Russian Navy will have countermeasures to the last generation's weapons. Some losses may still occur, but older tools will be less effective.

-If Cascadia has fallen? That puts Elmendorf AFB in airstrike range with JASSMs. Hell, that puts it in groundlaunched Tomahawk range, and thats the cheapest ground-launch capable cruise missile in US inventory. The best place to kill an enemys air force has always been on the ground after all.
And the weather being what it is, you cant actually disperse aircraft in Arctic basing, whether in Alaska or the Conservatiate.

Those weapons are now semi-obsolete after a generation's worth of improvement.

-The Arctic Conservatiate is well out of basing range for fighters striking into the NCR anyway from what I can tell about CFB basing.
Gonna need to deploy your B-21skis if you are willing to risk them.

Aerial refueling is available now; I can only presume that the range of aircraft has improved over time. Russia also presumably has aircraft carriers.

-No island basing off the coast of Cascadia that is outside range of counterstrikes. Everything from UUVs to mines to aerial drone and missile strikes.

Yes. Losses are to be expected. We can also expect that Russian defenses will be a generation better than NCR equipment.

-The NCR has just tied down your military and a large chunk of your merchant marine for the better part of two years at a minimum.
Just the buildup to expand whatever basing exists in the Arctic to handle the throughput of a large chunk of your AF in Arctic/near-Arctic conditions is going to take time. Time and materials and skilled personnel you will have had to strip from your commitments elsewhere.

That can be an eternity in geopolitics.

Hope the rest of the Russian Empire does not need any of that stuff in the meantime.
And that none of the neighbors have any ambitions. Or the Ukrainians/Estonians/Latvians/Lithuanians/Central Asians/Arabs who were conquered. Or your clientstates allies.

White room affair Imperial Russia without plot shields may well beat California eventually if they are willing to pay the price in money and years and industrial commitment. May. Given the distance and shit California has a good chance of standing them off.
But in the current geopolitical situation they cannot afford to try.
My opinion.

Yes. The time and effort required to cripple California is simply too expensive, even if they didn't have nukes. We are in agreement on this matter.

Where we disagree is the idea that California's last-generation arsenal poses a crippling threat to the might of the Bear. I do not think it does. I believe that white room Imperial Russia would crush California in time, and that California would have no chance of standing them off.

In the current geopolitical situation, they cannot afford to try.

Note:
Saudi Arabia was basically next door to a Russia that had knocked over Azerbaijan and Armenia, they had local basing in Syria, support from Iran, and they STILL had to land troops to finish the job. Venezuela was unstable.
The NCR is neither of those things as described.

If California was in Saudi Arabia's place they'd suffer much the same fate in the absence of WMDs.
But they're half a world away, 11,000 km from the closest major Russian seabase, at the end of a very long logistics supply chain.

Distance protects them from conventional military action by Imperial Russia in a way it doesnt any other of Alexander's victims, especially since Russia is primarily a land power. Japan has China looming over its shoulder. And Victoria's army is Dead.
Again, my opinion.

EDIT
Operation Iraqi Freedom allegedly cost $90.3 billion for a several months long buildup and a month-long war. Allegedly.

Imperial Russia is a superpower, just like the Old World United States. They can project power around the world, and did in fact successfully project power to California. The last war between Russia and the NCR ended in a Russian victory.

The world has changed, and Russia can't afford that kind of effort anymore. They have too many enemies. But if not for the outside threats and California's nukes, Russia could defeat California, just as they did last time.
 
The Winter War says hello!
The one between the Soviets and the Finns?
Where the Soviets lost thousands of men to weather conditions?
Im not sure anyone trained to fight tens of thousands of men in those conditions.

Both America and Russia have Air Force bases in the far north. This is a solved problem in our time; another generation of improvement will only make it easier.
Not especially.
The Russians have Nagurskoye in the Arctic. The US has Elmensdorf in Alaska and Thule in Greenland. They are decidedly hardship postings IIRC, and neither has actually had to deal with operating aircraft in combat conditions to the best of my knowledge.

Not like you need to worry in nuclear war.
By WoP, there has been an entire generation of improvement in military technology between now and then. Anti-missile lasers are now a thing.
The mitigation strategy has been either high speed or low altitude, and a mix of saturation contacts and blinding sensors; thats why the MALD-series of decoys/jammers costs somewhere in the region of a tenth to a fifth the price of a standard cruise missile.

The Russian Navy will have countermeasures to the last generation's weapons. Some losses may still occur, but older tools will be less effective.
That doesnt seem to be the way weapons technology works.
The M-08 sea mine that almost sank the USS Samuel B Roberts was a design that was 80 years old.
Silkworm antishipping missiles trace their ancestry to the 1950s SS-N-2 Termit.

Those weapons are now semi-obsolete after a generation's worth of improvement.
The Minuteman-III ICBM was introduced in 1970, and wont be replaced before 2030. The Dragon Lady is still flying. So is the B-52.
Cost, numbers and reliability is as much a consideration as being at the bleeding-edge.

Aerial refueling is available now; I can only presume that the range of aircraft has improved over time. Russia also presumably has aircraft carriers.
Range depends on more than technology.

Aerial refuelling is available, but not ubiquitous, and depends very much on force doctrine.
The US has about 453 tankers for >5300 aircraft because its an expeditionary air force. Russia has roughly 20, with another 19 on order, servicing some 4000 aircraft in inventory because its not.

Carriers? No idea. Japan yes almost certainly, but Russia is a land power.
Whether they'd have bothered with carriers, which are a high investment ship and high value target, remains to be seen.
Submarines and cruisers are historically more their thing.

Yes. Losses are to be expected. We can also expect that Russian defenses will be a generation better than NCR equipment.
Good enough can be good enough.
If you can build and/or replace the weapon fast enough.

Yes. The time and effort required to cripple California is simply too expensive, even if they didn't have nukes. We are in agreement on this matter.
Where we disagree is the idea that California's last-generation arsenal poses a crippling threat to the might of the Bear. I do not think it does. I believe that white room Imperial Russia would crush California in time, and that California would have no chance of standing them off.
In the current geopolitical situation, they cannot afford to try.
Thats where we disagree.

I suspect they'd have a good chance of managing it, if only because of the sheer logistic fuckery required to operate that far. Moving materiel across the railway system from the European heartland down to Vladivostok is well within the capacity of NCR special forces to fuck with, for example. And the Arctic Conservatiate is a longtime Cali trade partner; they almost certainly would have teams incountry as well as sympathizers.

If they shared borders it would be a different issue.

Imperial Russia is a superpower, just like the Old World United States. They can project power around the world, and did in fact successfully project power to California. The last war between Russia and the NCR ended in a Russian victory.

The world has changed, and Russia can't afford that kind of effort anymore. They have too many enemies. But if not for the outside threats and California's nukes, Russia could defeat California, just as they did last time.
The last war involved no blows between Russia and the NCR; it was the Vics who did the fighting.
We still dont know what precisely happened besides an embargo; its part of the backstory of this TL, when Alexander was still rocking planetary sized plot shields, and asking the GM to give it some coherence would be cruel and unusual treatment.

Regardless? Plot shields gone.
 
The one between the Soviets and the Finns?
Where the Soviets lost thousands of men to weather conditions?
Im not sure anyone trained to fight tens of thousands of men in those conditions.
I suppose you could count the Finnish Army as having trained for those conditions, but that training was more so just growing up in Finland in the early 20th Century. They numbered in the tens of thousands.
Whether they'd have bothered with carriers, which are a high investment ship and high value target, remains to be seen.
Submarines and cruisers are historically more their thing.
I mean, it's not impossible that they might have drawn some inspiration from their allies' past.
The last war involved no blows between Russia and the NCR; it was the Vics who did the fighting.
Just to nitpick for a bit, only the command staff was Victorian, the troops themselves were local mercs and Russian-sourced PMC's from abroad, because Victoria's ability to wage a war on the other side of the continent is less than zero by an order of magnitude.
 
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So if things go really bad and the NCR decides to go nuclear, what could they hit? I suspect Russia probably has some sort of defense grid, so where could they aim that they could realistically hit and do the most damage?
 
I suppose you could count the Finnish Army as having trained for those conditions, but that training was more so just growing up in Finland in the early 20th Century.
Lol.
Yeah, pretty much.
If I see Russian submarine carriers in this quest?
And then I'd be looking for the alien invasion, because I'd know this was a Thundersub/Space Carrier Noah TL.
Just to nitpick for a bit, only the command staff was Victorian, the troops themselves were local mercs and Russian-sourced PMC's from abroad, because Victoria's ability to wage a war on the other side of the continent is less than zero by an order of magnitude.
Not entirely.

A lot of them were local mercs, but some, not just the commanders, were Vic troops. Back then the Interstates were still more or less intact, so it was actually possible for a light force to move from the Eastern US to the West by pickup truck. And there would have still been a lot of US military surplus lying around.And enough of the Vics then were actual military veterans of the US military, and actually had a base of useful knowledge

Remember that the current Generalissimo Blackwell of Victoria allegedly cut his teeth leading Vic troops in the Pacific War.
Its part of that TL backstory that isnt worth unentangling.

So if things go really bad and the NCR decides to go nuclear, what could they hit? I suspect Russia probably has some sort of defense grid, so where could they aim that they could realistically hit and do the most damage?
Not currently relevant. Hopefully never will be.
 
Another noteworthy problem the NCR faces in trying to reunite the entire country as opposed to just the part west of the Rockies is, well... the Rockies. The infrastructure links across the mountains are effectively cut, and the local populations up that way are among the ones most deeply hostile to California. So any prospective effort to reunite the US overland for California that leverages their military might runs into trouble. They're going to spend a long time struggling to pacify and reconstruct that territory.

The normal counter to this would be to leverage sea power, but the combination of the Russians trying really hard to hang onto Panama, plus general greater (if not infinitely greater) Russian naval power and diplomatic influence, makes this difficult too.

By the time the NCR could extend a sphere of influence east of the mountains and back it up with troops without extremely heavy local support, it's going to be the mid-2080s at the earliest, I would think. And by that time, the combination of a hopefully growing CFC and other world powers starting to back their own client states in America will mean that the Californian advantage is less impressive.

What if instead of fighting Californian influence we did just go along with them?
I mean yeah. Barring good reason to push back against them, I'm happy enough to do that. The big issue is "what if the NCR decides to be a dick about things," which is obviously an X-factor we can't be certain about just yet.

People are comparing the upcoming war to desert storm, but I always imagined it more as the Russians in Afganistan. Create a quagmire that drains resources and saps morale, make it so that even if the Czar wins, it costs more than he gets out of it.
The Desert Storm comparisons are being made to illustrate that there is a significant gap in military technology between the two sides, and that while the NCR's military technology seems impressive to us, it's not impressive to first-rate world powers anymore.

It doesn't mean literally everything will, inevitably, play out the way Desert Storm played out.

I generally agree with the QM, but that doesn't mean the QM can't make mistakes.
It's not that the QM can't make mistakes, it's that one shouldn't be an ass about it even if one thinks they have. Repeated increasingly flowery performative gestures of respect for the QM, immediately followed by or following "but I think you're wrong on all counts and don't believe what you say" are a little over the line, I think.

There was a very interesting wargame conducted by the US military in 2002 that pitted "Blue" (the USA) versus an enemy nation called "Red" that was kind of obviously Iran. Red smashed Blues invasion fleet using asymmetrical warfare and reliance on relatively primitive communications technology that couldn't be monitored.

Not to be a retroculturist (because the general commanding Red definitely did not use Lind's tactics) but technological advantages can be overcome if the person with the advanced tech is overconfident and over-reliant on that technology.


Not that Russia wouldn't probably beat California anyway, but it might not be as guaranteed as the Czar would like- another reason for him to avoid a direct invasion.
As Uju noted, Red Team (under General van Riper) cheated, and also took advantage of some rather unrealistic conditions of the simulated military exercise (such as the need of the attacking fleet to cruise around in circles in an artificially small and limited box, due to need to avoid crashing into civilian traffic IRL, as I recall). Van Riper's protests that the exercises were biased come across when you read them as "How dare they fail to acknowledge the glory of the TACTICAL GENIUS that is I, VAN RIPER!?" His actual discussion of military thinking comes across as being fairly... well, trite.

By WoP, there has been an entire generation of improvement in military technology between now and then. Anti-missile lasers are now a thing.
Not so much specifically to join this argument as because this equipment is interesting and we may find someone shooting it at us some day, I want to make a few observations.

One, undermining your side a bit, is that antimissile lasers probably don't work very well in adverse weather conditions. I don't care how good your laser is, it's not going to penetrate a fog bank or a mass of raindrops or snowflakes nearly as well as it penetrates clear empty air. A radar-guided or inertially-guided missile, by contrast, has good chances to ignore such things. Thus, a well-timed missile attack against Russian ground bases, or a very fortunately timed attack against a Russian fleet (since you have to localize the fleet precisely to know when it's being rained on, and localizing a fleet is easier said than done)... Well, such an attack might have significantly better results. This doesn't make the laser defense systems useless, but it does represent a frequent source of relatively predictable windows of vulnerability. Something military planners on both sides will be watching out for.

The other point, supporting your side, is one of Murphy's lesser-known laws (there are many):

"If the enemy is in range, so are you."

Russia almost certainly has a strategic bomber force capable of air-launching cruise missiles, and can also launch cruise missiles and drones from submarines and surface ships. And if the Californian (former American) cruise missiles are long range and hilariously capable, the potentialities of the Russian cruise missiles are going to be downright hair-raising. They can pop into range with mobile forces, launch attacks on Californian targets, and pop back out of easy detection and surveillance range. If the Californians go looking for them with long range radars, those radars become targets for anti-radiation missiles. If the Californians try to find a fleet a thousand miles off their coast that's lobbing cruise missiles using search aircraft, the search aircraft are apt to become very vulnerable targets, since such maritime patrol aircraft tend to be big, fat, and slow.

...

This is a form of warfare that has never really occurred in real life- not an armored blitz or a trench stalemate or even a conventional air battle of bombers trying to fly over your territory where your own air defenses try to shoot them down. It's... I'm going to borrow a phrase of Churchill's and call it a "wizards' war." It's a conflict where both sides sit at far apart in protected locations and conjure up invisible forces (radar) and subhuman servitors (missiles and drones) to pick away at each other's capabilities from a distance.

The Russians would almost certainly win the "wizards' war" phase of a conventional conflict with California. By the time they were inclined to start basing land-based aviation out of Alaska (as opposed to, say, Hawaii), or bringing fleets close enough to the California coast to be detected and fired on reliably, California's own military capabilities and civilian infrastructure would have gotten a lot of holes shot in them.

So if things go really bad and the NCR decides to go nuclear, what could they hit? I suspect Russia probably has some sort of defense grid, so where could they aim that they could realistically hit and do the most damage?
Good question, but it's hard to answer without knowing what the Californian nuclear launch platforms are. Presumably California must have missiles capable of hitting targets somewhere in Russia (which is damn near an antipodal round-the-world shot) or their nuclear deterrent would not be credible. Alexander IV is unlikely to bow to a Californian threat to nuke Hawaii or Cuba or Victoria or a target somewhere in the North American Arctic; the NCR would have to threaten to hit at least a place like Vladivostok.
 
So I've been thinking that the strategy for reunification should be different minor nations all consolidate into bigger and bigger states and eventually a coherent whole.
 
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Regarding this NCR/Russia Hypothetical, people do realize that Russia needs to supply Alaska, right? that means Industrial Rusia, transsiberian, and then across the Bering (do the Russians actually have significant Siberian/Alaskan industrial base? that could supply and serve as forward depot for a large scale invasion?)
Moreover the longer the Russians take to subdue the NCR the bigger the chances other boils on their asses start popping, as other rebel groups, supported by foreign actors and otherwise, realize that it is now or never

So, how many active rebelions/heavy insurgencies can the Russian state front? and for how long?
 
I notice folks talking about the NCR just being assumed to conquer Cascadia in the course of their initial uprising (the one they need to absolutely sweep in order to deny Alexander a plausible opportunity to intervene), and folks

no.

Cali touches Cascadia, they've just brought Imperial Japan into things, and Imperial Japan has both the fleet assets already in the theater to respond quickly and with great force, and a tenuous enough position that they cannot afford not to. If the NCR touches Cascadia, they are now at open war with the Empire of Japan and then Russia in very quick succession, and nobody is prepared to help them with that, not yet. Russia can be positioned in such a way that it cannot respond militarily to an encroachment upon its assets. Japan cannot be.
 
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I assume that means that any NCR invasion of Cascadia would have to occur after the uprising when Cali has restored independent foreign policy, at which point it can actually coordinate any attack northwards with, hypthetically, the near inevitable Chinese play for South Korea or a possible PACS/Chinese attempt to wrest dominance of the South China Sea. It shouldn't take longer than a decade for a much more pressing threat to emerge for the Japanese, given how China is big, aggressive, and vengeful, and PACS is insecure and aiming for even greater regional prominence. It just means the NCR has to wait several years to secure the west coast and can only expand eastwards slowly.

I imagine that's why they needed our recognition so bad in turn one; they need the legitimacy (lowercase) of recognition from a genuinely revivalist state to get any sort of diplomatic credibility in the wider North American scene.
 
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