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If you're implying Victoria is Chaos, they're having a piss-poor time of showing it. I mean, Chaos at least looks cool, you get demons and mutations and weird, mind-blowing magic. And all the crazed pleasure cults and drugs you can stand. All the Vicks got out of it was prudish bullshit.
The Imperium is evil by our standards because it's in a fucked-up universe where Bad Things Keep Happening, whether by the hands of the Imperium itself or by outside forces.

Victoria is evil because they didn't need to constantly commit atrocities to survive, but they still do.
this^_^ I was just being poetic sorry for the misunderstanding :oops:
 
Compared to FCNY's loophole abuses in skirting the disarmament treaties, how successful has the NCR been at squirreling away pre-war assets and new-age tech from under the Russians' noses?
 
Something I might expand on when we advance in time and I feel comfortable adding another chapter to Retroculture, is exploring how Carver has sort of unknowingly stumbled assbackwards into Marxian material analysis.

Orthodox retroculturalists sort of have this "hmm, things were better in the past, therefor we should live in the past". Saxon added to this "okay, why were things better in the past? What ideas and things led us away from the better past" and then Carver stumbled into a material analysis of "Okay, so different material conditions and economic relations cause different effects. So once we establish a preferred social organization, there must be a way of maintaining that, without changing social relations, right?"

So he's also kinda reinvented an ass backwards class analysis too by intuitively picking up that the "Free" Farmer peasants, creditor/landlord nuFeudal gentry, sharecroppers/indentured, and capitalists all have their own interests in Victorian society.

And he's basically decided "hmm, I bet I can arraign things so that the social relations between these classes remains the same as now, they're just more productive and capable by introducing modern (by 2076) technologies in the places where they won't change these social structures. (De facto limiting infotech to the capitalists and gentry for instance)

Carver's basically a Dark Marxist! >: V
Would that make him a...

Retrocultural Marxist?
 
I mean, I disagree with this diagnosis. Both emerge as the "right" answer not because it's a rational analysis of plausible material conditions, but because of authorial fiat. The only advantage I would cede to the imperium are that some of the authors of 40k are aware that is is ridiculous, whereas Lind just seems to be an reactionary moron.
As you note, a significant fraction of Warhammer 40,000's authorship (which can only be discussed as a collective body) does not argue that the Imperium of Man is the "right" answer. Recognizing that for one reason or another (there are many) it is very much an example of people coming up with the wrong solution to many of their problems, to the point where it is ultimately destroying them all.

Furthermore, there is an important element of Warhammer 40,000: its history is written as tragedy and its present circumstances as as a slowly unfolding disaster. Outside threats, while not turning the Imperium into an objectively correct or good state, do at least exist and would at least cause objective harm if allowed to triumph. Victoria, by contrast, is presented as having cheerfully chainsawed its neighbors for no reason better or more clear than "own the libs."

While I'm not fond of Puritan ideology, much less the Vics, I kind of dig the idea of being named an entire quoted sentence. "My name is Not-All-Those-Who-Wander-Are-Lost Jones, usually go by Wander."
Honestly, comparing the Vicks to the Puritans is grossly unfair to the Puritans.

The Puritans brought a lot of mixed cultural baggage with them. Some of it was overtly bad (e.g. being the only group of English colonists who did any witch-hunting as far as I can tell); you can see more examples at the link.

And yet. And yet.

The Puritans (as mentioned in the link) also brought with them ideas like protections against spousal abuse, an active society-wide commitment to reducing wealth inequality and restraining the pretensions of the aristocratic upper class, a desire to spread mass education, and a firm belief that the community was responsible for the success and welfare of all its members.

That Puritan cultural baggage eventually unpacked into a lot of the things that formed the foundation of the abolitionist movement and the rise of taxpayer-funded public education and social safety programs. Puritanism was, like all 17th century political and religious ideologies, so full of flaws and sins that we could spend a long day just picking them all apart... But it was carrying with it a certain amount of light, light that is ancestral to much of what we are glad to have today, and light which the Victorians have rejected.

The Victorians, essentially, want the superficial aesthetic trappings of the Puritans, without the culture and content. Or rather, without any of the culture and content that isn't something they can turn into support for a sick fantasy. They want the witch burnings, in other words, but not the domestic abuse laws.

When do you think was the last time the Victorians held a proper town meeting? When a minister condemned the actions of a powerful man? When the community passed a law taxing the rich to benefit the poor?

They're not Puritans; they're Nazis who killed a bunch of Puritans and try to wear their skins as disguises.

Im not actually sure this is true.
The Vics actively purged all semblance of high technology from their territory. We didn't. A lot of ours just fell into some disrepair, and people stopped active display of stuff that would draw attention.
Yes, but they also actively destroyed a lot of the infrastructure that would enable widespread use of high technology in the rest of the country. We're not living in the kind of condition a modern underdeveloped country might have, where the village lacks clean drinking water and yet has cell phone reception. The Vicks mostly blew up the cell phone towers too.

And, again, the reality remains that so many of our citizens were, at game start, subsistence farmers lacking the equipment and training to do better, that our country nearly starved despite frantic efforts to mass-produce and distribute farming equipment. We still might have famines without that; we're still actively working on that!

But if you simply MUST demand nitpicks for the nitpick god, FINE. I will say this:

The mean Commonwealth citizen is likely to be significantly more technologically literate than the mean Victorian (though just as our society has computer operators and engineers at the high end, so does theirs have radar technicians!).

But the median Commonwealth citizen may have little more access to high technology than the median Victorian, until and unless we spread the kind of infrastructure, wealth, education, and goods that let us open the gap farther.
 
They're not Puritans; they're Nazis who killed a bunch of Puritans and try to wear their skins as disguises.

Real talk, one of the guiding principles of Andrew's Garden design was "Nazi's wearing Amish skin as disguises". Or more accurately, "Nazi's killed a bunch of Amish and made someone else wear them while they play tourist." My work drew some inspiration from my sister's work with the Amish and her opinions are tourist looking to see their 'quaint' lifestyle.
 
Real talk, one of the guiding principles of Andrew's Garden design was "Nazi's wearing Amish skin as disguises". Or more accurately, "Nazi's killed a bunch of Amish and made someone else wear them while they play tourist." My work drew some inspiration from my sister's work with the Amish and her opinions are tourist looking to see their 'quaint' lifestyle.
Hm. Would you care to expand on that?
 
Hm. Would you care to expand on that?

There is a sort of... picture of the Amish as the pastoral ideal, for a certain type of Victorian they would represent the ultimate in retroculture, going father back than even Kraft. However, they also kinda of ignore other factors with the Amish, such as their Dutch descent, their closely related genetic trees, for Victoria, their pacifism would also be a problem. However, for someone like Smith, they would be the ideal state of what he imagines non Victorians should be. Passive, non-technological, etc etc. Or at least his ideal version of them, plenty of real ones likely got killed by him for lack of co-operation (though I should state that the polity he destroyed was not majority Amish).

As for the second part, my sister has had rants about the Amish tourists. Then tend to be extremely rude, self assured, and, key, the Amish don't want this. They don't run the tourist business, they don't make money off of it. It a imposition on people who want to be left alone. Some of the less pacifistic branches of the similar strains out west tend to be more shoot on sight, and according to my sister, she can't blame them.

In this, Andrew division gets to play at being petty lord, but also play at Amish. They congratulate themselves on living the true primitive ideal, while their fake Amish theme part acts as slaves, not a independent community. Nor is it truly a self-sustaining community, though it has been making strides. A lot of key goods the Children have are the cast offs of Victoria raiding. If you totaled the value of stolen goods to produced ones, I'm not sure it would come out positive, and certainty wouldn't if you accounted for the fact that the produced goods tend to only have come once the Children grew up. The value to Andrew is twofold. First, the CMC gives them much more leeway on the goods their Children produce than usual. Second, it's all about that fantasy of playing patriarchal lord while claiming pseudo-primitivism (even as you bring in your own toys and often go out campaigning and don't have to deal with the work of being so primitive). In a way perhaps it is a very, very efficient creation. After all, CEO's and world leaders pay thousands of dollars for similar experiences at Cape Cod.

That all make sense?
 
Im not actually sure this is true.
The Vics actively purged all semblance of high technology from their territory. We didn't. A lot of ours just fell into some disrepair, and people stopped active display of stuff that would draw attention.

Only there's chapter 46 from the source material, wherein we discover that technology is good if you can credit it to Nikolai Tesla!

I've always read this as showing Retroculture's technological attitudes were really excuses for murder and justification for the ways Victoria controls its population. And that if Victoria as a state or members of the Victorian elite want something, they discover that some white man who is a meme for inventiveness and who worked before 1930 actually invented the thing they want! Don't buy a decadent European television, buy a Retroculture-approved Edison visualizer!

Though with @AKuz's last omake, we can be sure that the Victorians aren't as brazen in their techno-hypocrisy as I'd imagined, there may be rare cases of high technology in their territory and small teams of men trained to work with them (like the supposed "cold fusion" reactors, which I bet are just black-boxed Russian pebble bed reactors).

So that was a long winded way to say that while I am sure you are mostly right, I think we should be aware that Victorian hypocrisy might mean they have curve balls to throw at us.

They're not Puritans; they're Nazis who killed a bunch of Puritans and try to wear their skins as disguises.

That is darkly humorous to me.

fasquardon
 
So that was a long winded way to say that while I am sure you are mostly right, I think we should be aware that Victorian hypocrisy might mean they have curve balls to throw at us.
Oh I agree.
I should have been more precise, as in, high technology availability to the masses is what has been purged. The privileged will always find some way to justify access to whatever they want or need to maintain power, or just to enjoy the perks.

I mean, we just did see the VAF flying F-16s and firing Sidewinders and AshMs, and even gimped F-16s no way no how qualify as Retroculture.
Not to mention Alexander's hologram flex. The multiplicity of hydroelectric and tidal power plants don't run on 1930s tech either.
And you can be damn sure that the slave resorts at Cape Cod have every modern convenience they can afford for the benefit of it's "guests."
 
Oh I agree.
I should have been more precise, as in, high technology availability to the masses is what has been purged. The privileged will always find some way to justify access to whatever they want or need to maintain power, or just to enjoy the perks.

I mean, we just did see the VAF flying F-16s and firing Sidewinders and AshMs, and even gimped F-16s no way no how qualify as Retroculture.
Not to mention Alexander's hologram flex. The multiplicity of hydroelectric and tidal power plants don't run on 1930s tech either.
And you can be damn sure that the slave resorts at Cape Cod have every modern convenience they can afford for the benefit of it's "guests."
The trick with Retroculture is that it isn't actually "all tech invented after 1930 is bad" as such.

The core premise of Retroculture is that the highest imaginable form of civilization is:

1) Rural small town America,
2) During Jim Crow, and
3) Prior to women's lib.

All the technology suppression is pursuant to this goal. Hence the name Retroculture, not Retrotechnology.

Bans on telecommunications tech higher than landline phones and broadcast radio are there because such technology lets people organize social networks 'laterally' and reach out to others with similar interests and identities, while ignoring the fact that they're seen as misfits within their community. Because obviously you need to force everyone to live in rural small town America, which means obviously they can't have any means of escape, because obviously the greatest thing about rural small town America was that all those queers and dirty hippies and brown people and women were forced to conform by inescapable social pressure.

Bans on efficient personal transportation are there for the same reason: to force people to 'stay put' with the neighbors they've been assigned by the system.

There's no reason in theory under the core principles of Retroculture that society should be restricted to using 1930s weaponry to defend itself, or 1930s medical technology to treat sickness. In practice they're restricted to that kind of thing, but that's because they're doing all this "Khmer Rouge, but white supremacist" shit like shooting all the college professors and tearing down urban infrastructure to force people out into the countryside.

...

The real hypocrisy of Victoria is the idea that all this "simple, clean living" is better, when in fact it's a tool to keep the majority of the population helpless, controlled, and in a state of de facto serfdom to the relative minority who are the equivalent of "Party members" in other totalitarian systems.
 
The trick with Retroculture is that it isn't actually "all tech invented after 1930 is bad" as such.

The core premise of Retroculture is that the highest imaginable form of civilization is:

1) Rural small town America,
2) During Jim Crow, and
3) Prior to women's lib.

All the technology suppression is pursuant to this goal. Hence the name Retroculture, not Retrotechnology.

Bans on telecommunications tech higher than landline phones and broadcast radio are there because such technology lets people organize social networks 'laterally' and reach out to others with similar interests and identities, while ignoring the fact that they're seen as misfits within their community. Because obviously you need to force everyone to live in rural small town America, which means obviously they can't have any means of escape, because obviously the greatest thing about rural small town America was that all those queers and dirty hippies and brown people and women were forced to conform by inescapable social pressure.

Bans on efficient personal transportation are there for the same reason: to force people to 'stay put' with the neighbors they've been assigned by the system.

There's no reason in theory under the core principles of Retroculture that society should be restricted to using 1930s weaponry to defend itself, or 1930s medical technology to treat sickness. In practice they're restricted to that kind of thing, but that's because they're doing all this "Khmer Rouge, but white supremacist" shit like shooting all the college professors and tearing down urban infrastructure to force people out into the countryside.

...

The real hypocrisy of Victoria is the idea that all this "simple, clean living" is better, when in fact it's a tool to keep the majority of the population helpless, controlled, and in a state of de facto serfdom to the relative minority who are the equivalent of "Party members" in other totalitarian systems.

Even the military devastation of the rest of the continent can, in essence, be seen as an outgrowth of this essential mentality. Alternate systems, alternate forms of government, cannot be allowed to exist. Since they provide an idea that there is something other than Victoria, other than what their society demands.
 
Even the military devastation of the rest of the continent can, in essence, be seen as an outgrowth of this essential mentality. Alternate systems, alternate forms of government, cannot be allowed to exist. Since they provide an idea that there is something other than Victoria, other than what their society demands.
Well, that and also because they are all descendant cultures of "the crazy years" of America, dating back to a time after America abandoned the One True Culture (pre-1950 small town rural America, enforced on everyone at all costs).

Under Retroculture, this means that they are all at best debased, fallen versions of what real culture is and ought to be. Therefore, if they are destroyed, it is no real loss. Because culture is more important than people, and keeping everyone forcibly 'tidied up' and in compliance with the Retroculturalists' vision is more important than their lives and welfare.
 
I brought this up way back in the day, but it's worth bringing up again now that we're all thinking about it.



(Judt, 2005)
Germany's problem was as a modern state it was too massive to unroot victoria is so primitive that we have to unroot it to modernize
Secondary thought on this. With a power-base in the rural priesthood of a highly mountainous z. And a high degree of fanaticism, and no real power in the civil war, the Black faction is perfectly poised to end up a partisan faction. Heck, given their initial power, even once reduced down to purge survivors, hey may be the strongest individual resistance faction in Victoria. If so, that is gonna make for some weird political bedfellows.
these guys sound like they want to do away with empirical-based reasoning along with debating itself as a concept as in you can't argue with them because they don't believe in arguing:o:confused::jackiechan::facepalm:
like that priest in Footloose (1984 film) only the out of town kid would get burned at the stake as soon as he opened his mouth
(someone FactCheck me I feel like I'm writing crazy talk :confused:)
no thank you treat them like the white color army to the west and leave them out to dry and hopefully Brun :rage: :rage:

In all seriousness,I hope you aren't forgetting "Do not become what you fight".
Actually,what do we do with the Victorians?They've developed their own national identity,and cultural genocide would be...not okay.Or feasible-just look at what happened with Reconstruction.
can victoria even be called a state since the modern nation-state was the end result of the french revolution wich the Vicks hate and ideological oppose :confused::p
 
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I don't think that is specific is going to be the real issue here. Given the kind of nation victoria is... there are going to be a lot of deaths. The great lakes war was bad enough from a demographics perspective, but if we add in the deaths from the civil war, the deaths from famine and economic collapse, the deaths from the second war (the one that decides who gets to be in position to invade the other's heartland in the third war), and the deaths from the third war... it's not going to be pretty on their demographics. Population wise, unless we get extremely lucky any post war victoria is going to be a shadow of its former self. It's going to be absolutely horrific, and managing the devictorianification and reconstruction will be a nightmare, but giving land to Victoria's slaves might actually end up being doable without displacement because you don't need to displace the dead. This is probably going to be the biggest poulation decline New England has ever had, rivalled only by the collapse itself.
As it is, even post civil war, they are fucked.

They resemble the CSA's population, but worse. Namely, they're reliant on a small minority who they can trust to mobilize to take up arms without fear of revolts, but unlike the CSA, they're opposed to even utilizing women in any form of actual work, which really limits their industrial and military ranks.

Oh, and let's not even forget that their primary backer? He's probably giving some serious thought to turning the tap off for them, which means they're no longer benefiting from military and other support, leaving them with no allies, on a continent full of people all of whom hate their guts.

And their love of retroculture and violent ideological debates means they can't easily upgrade or adapt to changing circumstances. Like say, much of their military being eaten alive by Chicago, and the survivors busy engaging in civil war with one another.
 
As you note, a significant fraction of Warhammer 40,000's authorship (which can only be discussed as a collective body) does not argue that the Imperium of Man is the "right" answer. Recognizing that for one reason or another (there are many) it is very much an example of people coming up with the wrong solution to many of their problems, to the point where it is ultimately destroying them all.

Furthermore, there is an important element of Warhammer 40,000: its history is written as tragedy and its present circumstances as as a slowly unfolding disaster. Outside threats, while not turning the Imperium into an objectively correct or good state, do at least exist and would at least cause objective harm if allowed to triumph. Victoria, by contrast, is presented as having cheerfully chainsawed its neighbors for no reason better or more clear than "own the libs."
I would say it chainsawed its neighbors before chainsawing its arm off when it was done* i used the words "better to rule in hell then to suffer heaven" very deliberately:V

*And after the first Erie war, it is now trying to attach the chainsaw to the stump as a prosthetic :p
 
And he's basically decided "hmm, I bet I can arraign things so that the social relations between these classes remains the same as now, they're just more productive and capable by introducing modern (by 2076) technologies in the places where they won't change these social structures. (De facto limiting infotech to the capitalists and gentry for instance)

Carver's basically a Dark Marxist! >: V

One of the things that makes Victoria special is that Rumford meant what he said. Plenty of tyrannies only care about regulating and limiting technology for the little people, but Rumford seems to have genuinely wanted to create a society where even the upper ranks wouldn't use modern technology. His "Fourth Generation" doctrine was probably the single most important reason for Victoria's defeat in the last war, since they utterly disregarded logistics, sea power, air power, and common sense.

In some ways, the United States was lucky to have Rumford and Kraft. If they had been more like Stalin and less like the Khmer Rogue, the Commonwealth could be facing an enemy with mechanized agriculture, a decent industrial base, and a somewhat sane military doctrine.
 
One of the things that makes Victoria special is that Rumford meant what he said. Plenty of tyrannies only care about regulating and limiting technology for the little people, but Rumford seems to have genuinely wanted to create a society where even the upper ranks wouldn't use modern technology. His "Fourth Generation" doctrine was probably the single most important reason for Victoria's defeat in the last war, since they utterly disregarded logistics, sea power, air power, and common sense.

In some ways, the United States was lucky to have Rumford and Kraft. If they had been more like Stalin and less like the Khmer Rogue, the Commonwealth could be facing an enemy with mechanized agriculture, a decent industrial base, and a somewhat sane military doctrine.
That's almost certainly because Victoria is a fictional creation born from a bad author. If something like this were to ever actually happen, the revolutionary ideologues would be removed and replaced by the cynical pragmatists, as happens with almost every revolution that manages to achieve some degree of success. And if they didn't, well, the Khmer Rouge analogy works remarkably well.
 
...Those bastards got their hands on the Lone Ranger????:mad::mad::mad::mad:
That's not the Lone Ranger.

That's a pretender, wearing a domino mask.

He has forgotten the Creed.

"I believe...
...That to have a friend, a man must be one.
...That all men are created equal and that everyone has within himself the power to make this a better world.

...That God put the firewood there but that every man must gather and light it himself.
...In being prepared physically, mentally, and morally to fight when necessary for that which is right.
...That a man should make the most of what equipment he has.
...That 'This government, of the people, by the people and for the people' shall live always.
...That men should live by the rule of what is best for the greatest number.
...That sooner or later ... somewhere ... somehow ... we must settle with the world and make payment for what we have taken.
...That all things change but truth, and that truth alone, lives on forever.

...In my Creator, my country, my fellow man."


And the authors have forgotten the Guidelines, too.

"Whenever he has to use guns, The Lone Ranger never shoots to kill, but rather only to disarm his opponent as painlessly as possible."
 
I was thinking of writing one without the False Ranger. But I decided against; I don't think the inspiration is there and I'm not exactly immersed in the spirit of Western lore.
 
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