Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

[4WheelSword]

thread policy Discussion of politics that does not directly relate to the Quest or to Quest votes are banned from hereon out. This thread policy will be enforced by the Moderation team. Do not ignore it.

 

[Ugolino]

Exactly my point.

The US has checks and balances to prevent that sort of thing. Supposedly. The monarch of Russia can launch a military campaign on his own recognizance, and none will gainsay him till later. It might cost them internationally, but your city is now a crater. See Mr Putin's adventures in Syria, and consider a situation where he'd be even less bound by custom or public opinion.

Nothing prevents The Boy from doubling down on his investment in Victoria because Blackwell impressed him personally with his martial cred, or made a personal appeal that tickled his vanity. It might be the wrong longterm choice for Russia, but that's the thing with incompetents.
Where Catherine would make the hardheaded decision to cut them loose if they were more trouble than they were worth.

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If Victoria exists by the time this becomes relevant, something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. You seem to consistently be misunderstanding the prerequisite for us to even have a foreign policy.

That said, Catherine is just as vile as her father and more dangerous than the Boy- historically, an incompetent heir has rarely been worse for that country's rivals than a cany political operator with practice at normalizing her father's atrocities.

 

[Lightwhispers]

Hence "without immediate blowback."

Literally none of the positions I advocate here are related to our current immediate issues- for a future foreign policy and deterrent, we need a country and reunification to happen first. The point is that when we do have the ability to make those decisions again in the far future, what matters is a) does this hurt us directly more than it helps?, b) How can we hurt Imperial Russia by doing this?

No other considerations matter, least of all the alleged sanctity of the Romanovs' person.

And make no mistake, Russian leadership of a climate response is a threat to us. It should be ended.

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Ignoring long term/ indirect consequences is a very effective way to slit your own throat. Especially in Poptart's quests.

Catherine is just as vile as her father

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[Ugolino]

Ignoring long term/ indirect consequences is a very effective way to slit your own throat. Especially in Poptart's quests.

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... and letting the enemy have free reign isn't?

Catherine is literally the greatest overall threat to the quest. If you're worried about long term consequences or indirect consequences, Alex might decide to steamroll us to keep us underfoot. Catherine may not need to.

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She's a willing participant in his overseas atrocities and conquests, and we have her to thank for the Canadian Quislings. A new face and more smooth-talking but the same crimes.

 

[SneakyWalrus]

I don't think that is ethical, and I would not be willing to pay the price for it anyway.
It's been forty years, hundreds of billlions of dollars and tens of millions of lives, and the United States as an idea isn't dead. I would not pay any of that for a doomed attempt at trying the same with Russia.

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Ethics isn't the question here. Victoria is on it's way out, and as far as global politics goes, we are never going to be relevant in the grand scheme of things. America, and the promise of power it did hold, is totally gone. Millions died because a madman won a throne in a distant land, and made the world suffer for it. Let Russia burn, and have literally any other global superpower take it's place, because russia can absolutely not be trusted to any extent despite being in charge.

I mean, best case scenario for the end of this quest is that Russia collapses into a particularly bloody civil war following Alexander's heirs + extended family being taken out, but literally any curtailing of their ability and influence is better than what we have now. The best ending for us in this quest is being a relatively major power in the north americas up against the NCR and that new fancy northern Canadian nation I can't remember what's called.

 

[Taut_Templar]

Nothing prevents The Boy from doubling down on his investment in Victoria because Blackwell impressed him personally with his martial cred, or made a personal appeal that tickled his vanity. It might be the wrong longterm choice for Russia, but that's the thing with incompetents.
Or erratics.

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While you have a point, the assumption is that his energy and time are taken up with Russia's more immediate problems and intrestests, of which there are undoubtedly plenty. While Alexander well knows he can't afford to let the US unite, would the Boy prioritize that over crushing his sisters loyalists, putting down the latest Tartar revolt, posturing with Germany, intimidating Japan, hiking taxes, petty corruption, personal bickering, etc, etc, etc.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

I love the intensity of debate, and also find the sheer confidence of assertions ultimately founded on, "Ekaterina competent and favored, Boy stupid and disfavored," to be darkly hilarious.

 

[Lightwhispers]

... and letting the enemy have free reign isn't?

Catherine is literally the greatest overall threat to the quest. If you're worried about long term consequences or indirect consequences, Alex might decide to steamroll us to keep us underfoot. Catherine may not need to.

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...How are you getting from "don't try to assassinate Catherine" to "let her have free reign"? I do not understand your logic. That is not what anyone you are arguing with has been saying. The argument is that political assassinations are bad strategy*, as they provoke adverse reactions from Russia and other countries which could otherwise be avoided. Russia has the resources to steamroll us if we make them think it necessary. Attacking a member of the Imperial Family is a very effective way to make it so.

However, just because we take one tactic off the table, does not mean we surrender.

*as well as ethically dubious.

 

[uju32]

From our decision making process, we shouldn't care- directly, anyway.
And yes, obviously I'm talking very long term.
I mean, to put it bluntly, your example backfires in that said incompetent is working towards someone's interests quite efficiently, without much blowback for the culprit.

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1) You are in a Poptart quest.
You really should leave that short-term thinking at the door.

2)One of the key tensions that led us into WW1 was Kaiser Wilhelm's incompetence as an executive monarch.
At turns bellicose and neglectful, with a need to demonstrate power and an inability at skillfully exercising it that led him into decisions that hurt both his country and others.

We have seen how this works out in Great Powers, we have no need to have it demonstrated again.

Ethics isn't the question here. Victoria is on it's way out, and as far as global politics goes, we are never going to be relevant in the grand scheme of things. America, and the promise of power it did hold, is totally gone. Millions died because a madman won a throne in a distant land, and made the world suffer for it. Let Russia burn, and have literally any other global superpower take it's place, because russia can absolutely not be trusted to any extent despite being in charge.

I mean, best case scenario for the end of this quest is that Russia collapses into a particularly bloody civil war following Alexander's heirs + extended family being taken out, but literally any curtailing of their ability and influence is better than what we have now. The best ending for us in this quest is being a relatively major power in the north americas up against the NCR and that new fancy northern Canadian nation I can't remember what's called.

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Poptart quest.
You really are overlooking the whole Lawful Evil GM thing they have going on.

And as for Victoria going out? That is our aim yes.
But assuming that something like that is inevitable is one hell of an assumption. Or that it will go out without wrecking everything around it.
Reality can remain irrational for far longer than our inability to wait it out, to paraphrase a saying.

While you have a point, the assumption is that his energy and time are taken up with Russia's more immediate problems and intrestests, of which there are undoubtedly plenty. While Alexander well knows he can't afford to let the US unite, would the Boy prioritize that over crushing his sisters loyalists, putting down the latest Tartar revolt, posturing with Germany, intimidating Japan, hiking taxes, petty corruption, personal bickering, etc, etc, etc.

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You are assuming rationality. I am not.
To use the aforementioned example, Kaiser Wilhelm got into an expensive naval arms race with Britain when his primary strategic interests were on the European mainland. He threatened Russia with war to get them to recognize Austria-Hungary's annexation of Bosnia.

Never underestimate a fool's(or a politician's) ability to surprise you.

 

[Ugolino]

...How are you getting from "don't try to assassinate Catherine" to "let her have free reign"? I do not understand your logic. That is not what anyone you are arguing with has been saying. The argument is that political assassinations are bad strategy*, as they provoke adverse reactions from Russia and other countries which could otherwise be avoided. Russia has the resources to steamroll us if we make them think it necessary. Attacking a member of the Imperial Family is a very effective way to make it so.

However, just because we take one tactic off the table, does not mean we surrender.

*as well as ethically dubious.

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Political assassination of Catherine is ethically justified and the least-bad scenario involving her. She's uniquely dangerous to our well-being and existence, and as long as she's alive with a chance of taking the throne, she's an existential threat to us. Uniquely so.

snip

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You can say "poptart quest" repeatedly, but it won't change that the survival of the human race doesn't really...matter to us quest-wise, largely thanks to Russia's successful efforts to make sure survival and rebuilding some form of American government is the limit of our aspirations for the foreseeable future.

Catherine's hearts and minds project is a game-ender for us and she herself is the biggest threat in terms of leadership and policy. Give me a bellicose fool that's easily puppeted by domestic interests over her as an opponent any day.

 

[Lightwhispers]

Political assassination of Catherine is ethically justified and the least-bad scenario involving her. She's uniquely dangerous to our well-being and existence, and as long as she's alive with a chance of taking the throne, she's an existential threat to us. Uniquely so.

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How so? Explain, in detail. And remember, you almost certainly know less about her, and the Russian situation, than you think you do.

 

[AKuz]

I love the intensity of debate, and also find the sheer confidence of assertions ultimately founded on, "Ekaterina competent and favored, Boy stupid and disfavored," to be darkly hilarious.

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/\ This

Reminder to everyone that the Canonized omake that introduces the two heirs is two FCNY Diplomats getting together to have a drink and a bullshit session. Not some interior look at Alexander's thoughts as he works away breeding cabbages in his garden or some ex cathedra briefing.

 

[Ol' Tin Knight]

I love the intensity of debate, and also find the sheer confidence of assertions ultimately founded on, "Ekaterina competent and favored, Boy stupid and disfavored," to be darkly hilarious.

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Darkly hilarious? Why? As far as I can tell everybody's been quoting a canon omake, so unless the omake is suddenly non-canon or suffers from unreliable narration, said confidence seems perfectly fine, within reason.
Edit: Nevermind.

 

[uju32]

I love the intensity of debate, and also find the sheer confidence of assertions ultimately founded on, "Ekaterina competent and favored, Boy stupid and disfavored," to be darkly hilarious.

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Not stupid. Just not known for great choices, and more vulnerable to influence by political jobbers, of whom there are many.
I mean, Alexander may be a crazy man, but I assume he hasn't kept his job by being a poor judge of people. If the man who built his empire on the blood of tens of millions on his hands is disappointed in his son at the same time that elements of the Russian court want him in power, that's a bad sign.

And Catherine IS favored. She just doesn't want the job
Doesn't make her NICE, mind.
Just adept.

 

[Ugolino]

How so? Explain, in detail. And remember, you almost certainly know less about her, and the Russian situation, than you think you do.

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1. We know damn well she has a successful track record of PR blitzing, creating puppet states, and an understanding of how to apply optics frighteningly well.
2. If she was going to dismantle the Russian empire and flee for the hills rather than be a nightmare for us to deal with when the time comes, we'd damn well have known it by now and she wouldn't be unwilling heir material in the first place.
3. Alexander is dangerous but has managed to unite the world against him to a large extent. She's undoing his good work, which is bad for everyone not a Russian patsy. That means us.
4. The fact she's the heir with a track record of competence should make anyone nervous, never mind the rest.

/\ This

Reminder to everyone that the Canonized omake that introduces the two heirs is two FCNY Diplomats getting together to have a drink and a bullshit session. Not some interior look at Alexander's thoughts as he works away breeding cabbages in his garden or some ex cathedra briefing.

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I mean, it's all very well and good for us to have "fog of war", but short of the Boy being Peter Wiggin, Catherine is definitely the greatest threat.

 

[AKuz]

Darkly hilarious? Why? As far as I can tell everybody's been quoting a canon omake, so unless the omake is suddenly non-canon or suffers from unreliable narration, said confidence seems perfectly fine, within reason.

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It's possible that Nicholas is one of those heirs that looks dissolute and useless but can really step up the plate when he takes the throne and actual has to rule in his own right.

Or Catherine is a born and bred diplomat that cracks under the pressure of actually having to order executions and shit instead of just following dear old dad's orders and teaching third world farmers how to grow neat GMO plants.

We don't know, and it's quite possible that literally no one in universe knows.

 

[Taut_Templar]

You are assuming rationality. I am not.
To use the aforementioned example, Kaiser Wilhelm got into an expensive naval arms race with Britain when his primary strategic interests were on the European mainland. He threatened Russia with war to get them to recognize Austria-Hungary's annexation of Bosnia.

Never underestimate a fool's(or a politician's) ability to surprise you.

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'Kaiser Willy' still had a bunch of reasons to try and build a fleet/fuck with GB. Not very good ones, but for reasons nonetheless. Why would "the Boy" suddenly put us at the top of his shitlist? How is what you're espousing not simple self-defeating paranoia and irrationality?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Darkly hilarious? Why? As far as I can tell everybody's been quoting a canon omake, so unless the omake is suddenly non-canon or suffers from unreliable narration, said confidence seems perfectly fine, within reason.
Edit: Nevermind.

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I mean, you should assume that literally any IC information in my quests is as unreliable as it would be from any real-life person, in the same ways, and for the same reasons. Always be skeptical of your windows on the worlds I build. They're all motivated.

More to the point, even if we assume perfect reliability, that is not very much information to work with. Vast chasms of meaning lie beneath such simplicities.

 

[AKuz]

'Kaiser Willy' still had a bunch of reasons to try and build a fleet/fuck with GB. Not very good ones, but for reasons nonetheless. Why would "the Boy" suddenly put us at the top of his shitlist? How is what you're espousing not simple self-defeating paranoia and irrationality?

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Quick, victorious war to establish himself, especially if Cali and/or Oregon is untenable as a target. And if we say, murdered his sister, that would be a GREAT causus belli.

Or, he might not target us at all, but do something that completly fucks us over. I've mentioned before how the Volker shock in the '70s basically turned the up and coming 3rd world inside out and made them into what people mean when they say "3rd world". And the Voker Shock was basically the US chairmen of the Fed throwing levers to end stagflation, not attempt to trigger all kinds of disease outbreaks and famines. We could get completly owned for some systemic reason because he got in a pissing match with South Africa or something.

 

[Horologer]

/\ This

Reminder to everyone that the Canonized omake that introduces the two heirs is two FCNY Diplomats getting together to have a drink and a bullshit session. Not some interior look at Alexander's thoughts as he works away breeding cabbages in his garden or some ex cathedra briefing.

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Alexander breeds cabbages??

brb, drafting a ten-page assassination plan involving a cyanide-laced package of cabbage seeds, a horticulturist-turned-spy, and a drunken PI from Miami

 

[Lightwhispers]

1. We know damn well she has a successful track record of PR blitzing, creating puppet states, and an understanding of how to apply optics frighteningly well.
2. If she was going to dismantle the Russian empire and flee for the hills rather than be a nightmare for us to deal with when the time comes, we'd damn well have known it by now and she wouldn't be unwilling heir material in the first place.
3. Alexander is dangerous but has managed to unite the world against him to a large extent. She's undoing his good work, which is bad for everyone not a Russian patsy. That means us.
4. The fact she's the heir with a track record of competence should make anyone nervous, never mind the rest.


I mean, it's all very well and good for us to have "fog of war", but short of the Boy being Peter Wiggin, Catherine is definitely the greatest threat.

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Um... She's presumably about as competent as Alexander, doesn't want the job, is better liked, and would have to deal with nasty internal politics. I do not see how her being in charge of Russia would be a catastrophe. It might make things somewhat harder, with her bonus to external diplomacy, but I do not agree with your premise that she would be significantly worse to deal with than Alexander. And, for all we know, Nikky-Boy will be handled by a faction of competent generals who want to go expansionist. You are making many assumptions, and frankly veering into doomsaying.

Also, the idea that we have any chance of putting together an assassination mission anywhere other than maybe Victoria in the next decade, probably two is ludicrous. We only barely have anything of an external intelligence service, with exactly zero capability outside rumor-gathering. So frankly, it's most likely a moot point.

 

[065tdsa]

I mean, I don't get how any hypothetical reunited USA can ever have any peace with Russia in this quest's world. The USA is just better than Russia: better geography, better demographics, better reputation, even at its worst it never used nuclear weapons to destabilize its opponents. And Russia knows this, and they know the USA will want to destroy them over that whole "they destroyed us once and will surely do so again" thing that happened a while ago. The second Russia stops being busy with whatever they are doing, they'll start Operation Nuke Chicago And Blame It On Some Random Nutjob and we better have our shit together by then.

So, why wouldn't we act as though Russia is going to destroy us the very second they get a chance to and get ready to stab them in the kidneys before then? If Russia can pull what they did on the USA why wouldn't the new USA do it to Russia right back, preferably before it happens again.

The nuclear deterrent didn't save a country last time, and it certainly won't be enough this time, for anyone.

 

[Ugolino]

Anyway, in the here and now...

Local states. Next step in between the usual sausage making should be seeing how many are willing to guarantee basic rights for their citizens (ie: trying to pass around sign a non-binding commitment to our principles of human rights, representative government etc etc) as a litmus test.

Um... She's presumably about as competent as Alexander, doesn't want the job, is better liked, and would have to deal with nasty internal politics. I do not see how her being in charge of Russia would be a catastrophe. It might make things somewhat harder, with her bonus to external diplomacy, but I do not agree with your premise that she would be significantly worse to deal with than Alexander. And, for all we know, Nikky-Boy will be handled by a faction of competent generals who want to go expansionist. You are making many assumptions, and frankly veering into doomsaying.

Also, the idea that we have any chance of putting together an assassination mission anywhere other than maybe Victoria in the next decade, probably two is ludicrous. We only barely have anything of an external intelligence service, with exactly zero capability outside rumor-gathering. So frankly, it's most likely a moot point.

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I'm not talking within a decade. I'm well aware this is the long game.

A competently run Imperial Russia with a well-liked ruler who cares a great deal more for optics than Alex is an existential threat. I would gladly trade a fool and his generals for her- foolhardy or even moderately successful Russian expansionism would be fantastic for our goals especially since they wouldn't have a foothold on our continent by then unless we dropped the ball spectacularly and it'd force anti-Russian alliances to form on fast forward- and the hope of her being brought down by internal politics are not reason enough to consider her survival a good thing in the face of all evidence.

An Imperial Russia with a better PR blitz and adeptly formed alliances instead of unifying the world against it may as well be a game over for us right then and there because we'd be living under it for at least the rest of the century or worse.

Of course, you're not wrong about us needing to actually have the ability to conduct assassinations- or really, proper intelligence- in the first place. Especially since Victoria kinda ate a lot of our spies...

 

[uju32]

'Kaiser Willy' still had a bunch of reasons to try and build a fleet/fuck with GB. Not very good ones, but for reasons nonetheless. Why would "the Boy" suddenly put us at the top of his shitlist? How is what you're espousing not simple self-defeating paranoia and irrationality?

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Victoria making money for a number of politically-connected Russian megacorps with influential mouthpieces would be enough, frankly.
Most of us are too young to remember the United Fruit Company and its US government-backed shenanigans.
But it did exist.

Quick, victorious war to establish himself, especially if Cali and/or Oregon is untenable as a target. And if we say, murdered his sister, that would be a GREAT causus belli.

Or, he might not target us at all, but do something that completly fucks us over. I've mentioned before how the Volker shock in the '70s basically turned the up and coming 3rd world inside out and made them into what people mean when they say "3rd world". And the Voker Shock was basically the US chairmen of the Fed throwing levers to end stagflation, not attempt to trigger all kinds of disease outbreaks and famines. We could get completly owned for some systemic reason because he got in a pissing match with South Africa or something.

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Also, all of this.

To cite an example, Vietnam escalated bit by bit for reasons that had very little to do with Vietnam itself and more to do with the outside world.
And this was a part of the world where the US was actually quite popular, with the US helping to train the Viet Minh in WW2 and Ho Chi Minh proposing an alliance.

 

[SneakyWalrus]

Poptart quest.
You really are overlooking the whole Lawful Evil GM thing they have going on.

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You keep saying that, and it keeps not explaining your actual points. Yeah, you can go on about how Poptart is totally going to have consequences for shit, but that's literally how a quest works. Otherwise it'd just be a number of disconnected events with no purpose other than to get people to argue with one another on the internet. Granted, it can also be that, but I have about 80% confidence in Poptart that they aren't writing solely for that alone. And in any case, I'd still take another group or nation becoming world hegemon over the current imperial russia because having the world superpower literally be a powderkeg reliant on a single individual at the head of a nuclear nation is absolutely batshit insane.

And as for Victoria going out? That is our aim yes.
But assuming that something like that is inevitable is one hell of an assumption. Or that it will go out without wrecking everything around it.
Reality can remain irrational for far longer than our inability to wait it out, to paraphrase a saying.

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The reason I say that Victoria is on the out is because it has to be on the out for us to actually play this entire quest. Our entire existence as a nation is practically dependent on us knocking out Victoria from being an actual combative issue in the future, and if that doesn't happen at some point, then the entire existence of this quest would be largely pointless beyond getting people angry about Lind's shit writing. To that end, Russia, and it's actions, have become a far greater issue to us in the long term than Victoria is. Granted, we could all act as dipshits in the future and prioritize something else over crushing Victoria entirely, and I won't say that that isn't a very real possibility, but I'd like to think we're not all slack-jawed idiots in here.

Besides, this quest's narrative has gone from "Look how awful Victoria is!" to "Look how awful Victoria is, and they were entirely enabled by Russia!". The perception shift towards them as the greater enemy is entirely understandable, because they've literally been built up as the final enemy in the first place. Even if Victoria was crippled, Russia would simply find another proxy in north america to use to strike out at any potential issues. We've already seen some groups, like those monarchist fucks, who would absolutely be willing to engage with Russian support in order to maintain their own hegemony.

I mean, I don't get how any hypothetical reunited USA can ever have any peace with Russia in this quest's world. The USA is just better than Russia: better geography, better demographics, better reputation, even at it's worse it never used nuclear weapons to destabilize it's opponents. And Russia knows this, and they know the USA will want to destroy them over that whole "they destroyed us once and will surely do so again" thing that happened a while ago.

So, why wouldn't we act as though Russia is going to destroy us the very second they get a chance to and get ready to stab them in the kidneys before then? If Russia can pull what they did on the USA why wouldn't the new USA do it to Russia right back, preferably before it happens again.

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Yup. This isn't a "Do not become what you fight" kinda thing, it's more narratively become "These guys are the final boss, try not to act like them when you get around to facing them." kinda thing.

 

[Taut_Templar]

Quick, victorious war to establish himself, especially if Cali and/or Oregon is untenable as a target. And if we say, murdered his sister, that would be a GREAT causus belli.

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I mean, why doesn't Alexander just do that now if fucking us over would be so trivial? I don't think that Russia exercises the same kind of economic soft power the US did and does, and more importantly, is met with several rivals with a key interest in checking their influence across the globe. The situation is not as grim as you're describing.

And if we say, murdered his sister, that would be a GREAT causus belli.

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I mean, while her death is something I'm actively advocating for and if given the opportunity I'd go for it, I don't think there's actually going to be a realistic opportunity for us to assassinate Catherine, let alone do so before all the other assassins waiting in line.

Or, he might not target us at all, but do something that completly fucks us over. I've mentioned before how the Volker shock in the '70s basically turned the up and coming 3rd world inside out and made them into what people mean when they say "3rd world". And the Voker Shock was basically the US chairmen of the Fed throwing levers to end stagflation, not attempt to trigger all kinds of disease outbreaks and famines. We could get completly owned for some systemic reason because he got in a pissing match with South Africa or something.

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A reiteration of the first point, with the addendum that we're clearly going to have to deal with Russia fucking with us no matter what. Reuniting the continent is as much a matter of survival as it is an ideological goal.

Victoria making money for a number of politically-connected Russian megacorps with influential mouthpieces would be enough, frankly.
Most of us are too young to remember the United Fruit Company and its US government-backed shenanigans.
But it did exist.

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The goal for us, of course, is to not be Guatemala.