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You know, we derided Victoria's airship fetish. But hilariously cargo airships might well be practical for the Commonwealth given that we'll be expanding out into the Midwest and the infrastructures been trashed across the whole place and would require probably a decade or so of fixing up to a reasonable standard.
 
Do we have anything comparable to a C-130? Having one would go a long way to providing various opportunities including over the battlefield.
 
Imagine how much easier it would be for them to assimilate Philadelphia if they rolled up with the Liberty Bell.
Or DC if they had the Declaration.
I'm perfectly read to back a plan where we explicitly make such an offer to FCNY, on the background understanding that we help them grow and absorb old American areas with an eye towards us eventually unifying as a restored America.
 
Forestry is a major component of the Quebecois economy, along with mining.
And there is significant Russian involvement in Victoria. Airships would allow said corps move machinery straight from Boston port, or possibly even from Russia, into work camps in the middle of bumfuck nowhere without passing through port infrastructure.

Goddammit, stop giving me these ideas. Now I want to write another omake about a contracted Russian pilot doing airship cargo flights from Quebec City to the labor camps. ahem, "rehabilitation facilities".
 
Forestry is a major component of the Quebecois economy, along with mining.
And there is significant Russian involvement in Victoria. Airships would allow said corps move machinery straight from Boston port, or possibly even from Russia, into work camps in the middle of bumfuck nowhere without passing through port infrastructure.

Fascists lie.
Yes, but the vast majority of Quebec's forestry economy is based around industrialized mills for making pulp/paper - not the kind of stuff that needs cutting machines flown out to work camps. Straight up softwood lumber and structural wood makes up less than a fifth of Quebec's exports.

Most employment occurs in downstream manufacturing type stuff rather than actual in-forest cutting so there's a lot of slack for Victoria to boot people out of mills and factories and tell them to get to work logging trees with hand tools without dropping the amount of lumber they ship out too, and that's still a decent chunk of change that doesn't need hypocrisy on multiple levels.

It's also worth noting that local/community forestry has been on the rise in Quebec, so there's going to be a lot of indoctrinated locals around who'd need to have their stories clamped down on if they'd been using serious mechanization rather than extra hands. Fascists lie if it fits their purpose, but if they can stroke their ideological hateboner while still ruining people's lives and making acceptable amounts of cash they have no need to lie about not doing so.

Source: National Resources Canada
 
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Do we have anything comparable to a C-130? Having one would go a long way to providing various opportunities including over the battlefield.
Not yet.

I'm hoping we can start building C-123 Providers in short order once we have oil so we can start putting cargo birds in the air.
But while we can build C-130s now (its a 1951 design), we currently don't have the landing facilities to use it in any sort of
And we don't need the range yet; C-123 will reach most of the US from Commie territory, and carry 11 tons.

I'm perfectly read to back a plan where we explicitly make such an offer to FCNY, on the background understanding that we help them grow and absorb old American areas with an eye towards us eventually unifying as a restored America.
A little premature atm.
I suspect we might need them for Cali. I'd inclined to establish a joint commission that gives legit successor states a seat.
Give people accustomed to talking to each other.

I don't think specific artifacts will necessarily give a bonus to annexing other polities. :V
I would not be surprised if they did.Symbols matter.
I mean, Legitimacy gives a casus belli to US territories for a reason.

Goddammit, stop giving me these ideas. Now I want to write another omake about a contracted Russian pilot doing airship cargo flights from Quebec City to the labor camps. ahem, "rehabilitation facilities".
Do eeet.
Yes, but the vast majority of Quebec's forestry economy is based around industrialized mills for making pulp/paper - not the kind of stuff that needs cutting machines flown out to work camps. Straight up softwood lumber and structural wood makes up less than a fifth of Quebec's exports.

Most employment occurs in downstream manufacturing type stuff rather than actual in-forest cutting so there's a lot of slack for Victoria to boot people out of mills and factories and tell them to get to work logging trees with hand tools without dropping the amount of lumber they ship out too, and that's still a decent chunk of change that doesn't need hypocrisy on multiple levels.

It's also worth noting that local/community forestry has been on the rise in Quebec, so there's going to be a lot of indoctrinated locals around who'd need to have their stories clamped down on if they'd been using serious mechanization rather than extra hands. Fascists lie if it fits their purpose, but if they can stroke their ideological hateboner while still ruining people's lives and making acceptable amounts of cash they have no need to lie about not doing so.

Source: National Resources Canada
With the loss of wood exports from the rest of Canada and the US, Quebec gets to take up the slack for things like lumber.
And Russian corporations don't actually have to take orders from Vic govts about their machinery choices.
If the precision or quality they want is not achievable by hand, they can get whatever dispensations they want to use what they want.
 
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I did read that DARPA looked into using drone blimps for surveillance. In post collapse America where the vast majority of SAMs are MANPADS, using manned airships makes more sense then you think.
It makes a lot of sense until very abruptly it makes no sense at all because someone fired a heavier SAM

Given that the Victorians did not deploy airships against us during the Detroit Campaign, I think it's safe to say that either they deduced that this would be an issue, or were taught that lesson brutally by someone else shooting down one or more of their airships in combat, or, well... never had airships.

Do we have anything comparable to a C-130? Having one would go a long way to providing various opportunities including over the battlefield.
I don't think so; Chicago's only native-built aircraft of any real size is in the same general weight and performance class as a DC-3.

Not yet.

I'm hoping we can start building C-123 Providers in short order once we have oil so we can start putting cargo birds in the air.
Why C-123s, specifically? Is it because it's more practical as a small utility aircraft?

But while we can build C-130s now (its a 1951 design), we currently don't have the landing facilities to use it in any sort of...
I think the problem is the opposite of that. The facilities to make large aircraft engines, even if they are technologically within our capacity, do not exist in our territory- as I've pointed out before, just because the Saturn V moon rocket uses no post-1970 technology doesn't mean we could build one. Meanwhile, we DO have perfectly suitable runways in our territory- every city in the Midwest with an airport has a runway that could handle C-130s, and all we'd have to do is refurbish them.
 
With the loss of wood exports from the rest of Canada and the US, Quebec gets to take up the slack for things like lumber.
B.C. is under the control of Japan, so it's native logging industry (which is bigger than Quebec's and much more logging/lumber focused already) is easily accessible to Russia - with the added bonus of not having to deal with the headache of backwards Victorian views on mechanization and industry. Sure, Russia could poke Victoria into letting them use whatever machines they want in Quebec, and even poke Victoria into developing a native airship industry to support that activity - but why would they jump through extra hoops to get the same benefit?

Quebec exports around 90% of its forestry products to the US, so letting that industry wither and die with the US is perfectly in-line with Alexander's interest, especially if it makes it even slightly more difficult for people in North America to rebuild industry at some later point.
 
B.C. is under the control of Japan, so it's native logging industry (which is bigger than Quebec's and much more logging/lumber focused already) is easily accessible to Russia - with the added bonus of not having to deal with the headache of backwards Victorian views on mechanization and industry. Sure, Russia could poke Victoria into letting them use whatever machines they want in Quebec, and even poke Victoria into developing a native airship industry to support that activity - but why would they jump through extra hoops to get the same benefit?

Quebec exports around 90% of its forestry products to the US, so letting that industry wither and die with the US is perfectly in-line with Alexander's interest, especially if it makes it even slightly more difficult for people in North America to rebuild industry at some later point.
I mean, maybe. On the other hand, I can imagine some Russian corporation wheedling Alexander IV into letting them try to start a logging operation in Quebec for various reasons, even if they do have British Columbia under Japanese control as an option.
 
I mean, maybe. On the other hand, I can imagine some Russian corporation wheedling Alexander IV into letting them try to start a logging operation in Quebec for various reasons, even if they do have British Columbia under Japanese control as an option.
Individual logging operations probably exist, but they aren't going to be so common as to end up being a significant fraction of logging in Quebec. Certainly not to the extent that it would make sense for Random Russian Corporation #6958 to have funded a native Victorian airship program and expect an economic return from doing so.
 
It makes a lot of sense until very abruptly it makes no sense at all because someone fired a heavier SAM
I'm not sure how well a SAM would perform against an airship.
The fabric envelope will probably not trigger the warhead proximity fuse, and the IR output of any engines are not very bright.
Gun AA will shred one though.

EDIT
Also, MANPADs have an altitude limit that's way below the normal operating altitude of an aerostat.
And atmospheric satellites can operate beyond the altitude limit of all but the heaviest SAMs. 100,000 feet plus; if you have to spend a million dollar plus SM-3 or S-400 to knock down a balloon, you're not getting the better part of the deal.

Given that the Victorians did not deploy airships against us during the Detroit Campaign, I think it's safe to say that either they deduced that this would be an issue, or were taught that lesson brutally by someone else shooting down one or more of their airships in combat, or, well... never had airships.
*shrug*
Eh.
No one flies a 747-freighter in a warzone where the enemy has air superiority either. And Blackwell has displayed the capability to learn from the mistakes of others. Crazy, not stupid.

Why C-123s, specifically? Is it because it's more practical as a small utility aircraft?
It's designed to land on rough strips, and it has excellent STOL capability. Dual engines.
Depending on the version you're flying, you can get it down to a landing roll of 755 feet, and a takeoff roll of 855 feet while carrying a full load.
And it can do water landings, snow and ice landings, as well as the standard tarmac/grass/dirt.

For comparison, a C-130 at full load takes around 1km to get off the ground with 19 tons.
The DC-3 takes 900 feet to take off, 1640 feet to land, and carries 5 tons.

Plus, it's a 1949 design, so it originally flew with piston engines, and did so all through Vietnam.
It's airframe has been certified with piston-engines, turboprop(same T56 as the C130A to -H, so logistic commonality) and jet engines(J47 turbojets).
If we can't afford T56 turboprops now, we can run the original Wright 2500hp or the latter 3500hp radials.

Oh, and it carries 62 troops OR 50 medical litters + medical attendants OR 11 tons of cargo for about 2400 km or so,.
The C-130 does 92 passengers/ 64 airborne troops/74 medical litters + 5 medical attendants/19 tons for much farther.

Only drawback is that it's kinda slow on piston engines, around 300-350kmr cruise.
Jet engines got it to 800km/hr, but jets weren't efficient at the time, so that variant blew too much fuel, and the specific engines in play hung low enough to be endangered by FOD.

I think the problem is the opposite of that. The facilities to make large aircraft engines, even if they are technologically within our capacity, do not exist in our territory- as I've pointed out before, just because the Saturn V moon rocket uses no post-1970 technology doesn't mean we could build one. Meanwhile, we DO have perfectly suitable runways in our territory- every city in the Midwest with an airport has a runway that could handle C-130s, and all we'd have to do is refurbish them.
This is GM fiat territory. Still.
It bears reminding that we built 50s/60s/70s??? radar guided SAMs to protect our armies and cities. It took effort, and we had to leave the heartland bare to cover Detroit and the field army, but we did it.

1950s turboprop aircraft engines are not exactly high tech in comparison. The metallurgy is not very different from what was available in WW2.

As for runways, it's been forty years of non-maintenance in Midwest winters.
And I'm given to understand that winters in that part of the world are intense; having seen Detroit's roads, I'm willing to believe it.
There's a reason I'm looking for aircraft with short takeoff rolls and dirt strip performance.
 
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Predates Starlink; Google started working on this around 2008.
But yes. One of the names for long loiter airships, balloons and UAVs like this is atmospheric satellite.
Oh, I remember xkcd having a comic about that once... I'd thought it sounded familiar. While a cool concept, I imagine that targeting a neighboring atmo sat is decidedly nontrivial, what with high altitude winds blowing things all over the place and only limited power for station keeping. That'd make it rather difficult to propagate to world wide coverage, as opposed to starlink's solution of being above the atmosphere... That said, spaceX can always use the most risky rockets to get starlink into orbit to keep costs down too. I wonder if any of those sats would survive to today, just need to somehow get an interface built to communicate with those sats
 
B.C. is under the control of Japan, so it's native logging industry (which is bigger than Quebec's and much more logging/lumber focused already) is easily accessible to Russia - with the added bonus of not having to deal with the headache of backwards Victorian views on mechanization and industry. Sure, Russia could poke Victoria into letting them use whatever machines they want in Quebec, and even poke Victoria into developing a native airship industry to support that activity - but why would they jump through extra hoops to get the same benefit?

Quebec exports around 90% of its forestry products to the US, so letting that industry wither and die with the US is perfectly in-line with Alexander's interest, especially if it makes it even slightly more difficult for people in North America to rebuild industry at some later point.
-According to the figures you gave me, BC accounts for 30% of Canada's forestry exports. Quebec is 28%.
Those are 2017 figures.

-BC is under Japan's control.Not Russia's control. Alexei doesnt seem like the sort of person who extends trust if he can avoid it.
With the US and Canada dead, that means it's wood exports are also gone. And Vietnam being at civil war puts a further crimp in global wood supplies. It really isn't in Alexei's interests, or nature to allow Japan, or Brazil or some newcomer to fill that void.

Not when he can both reward flunkies and fund his pawns at the same time, while hedging against Japan.

-Why assume the airships are from Victorian industry, instead of Russian imports?
The fact that Victoria operates F16s does not mean they can actually build the things. Similarly, Vic airships only mean they can operate and maybe maintain them, not that they built them domestically.

Oh, I remember xkcd having a comic about that once... I'd thought it sounded familiar. While a cool concept, I imagine that targeting a neighboring atmo sat is decidedly nontrivial, what with high altitude winds blowing things all over the place and only limited power for station keeping. That'd make it rather difficult to propagate to world wide coverage, as opposed to starlink's solution of being above the atmosphere... That said, spaceX can always use the most risky rockets to get starlink into orbit to keep costs down too. I wonder if any of those sats would survive to today, just need to somehow get an interface built to communicate with those sats
They chose the altitude precisely because there isn't much in the way of wind up there at 60,000 feet plus.
5km/hr or so IIRC, and they use multiple balloons and altering the altitude of the balloons to maintain location, as well as monitoring global weather patterns. It's apparently commercially viable, since they are deploying in Kenya and Sri Lanka, neither of which are rich countries.

One balloon apparently can blanket an area of maybe a 20km radius with signal, which means roughly >1000 sq km of area at a time.
And Google says they can currently keep one up for 200 days/6 months at a time before bringing it down for maintenance and replacing with another balloon-sat.

I spent sometime attempting to track down public data on this while doing some research. Fascinating stuff.
 
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I literally just stumbled over it just now.
According to the two articles I dug up and included from The Week and Reuters, Lockheed Martin is currently offering it to oil and gas companies as well as logging companies, and is proposing it's use in natural disasters where ports and roads have been disrupted.

Being able to move 50 to 500 tons of freight from point to point, depending on the airship design, at 30-70 miles per hour, would significantly reduce the cost of civilian air freight that isn't critically time sensitive. Won't be anywhere as cheap as sea freight, which remains king, but it would simplify things like moving wind turbine blades and solar panels.

Possibly even moving bulk military supplies to landlocked countries.
Or shipping them back out for repairs and refurbishment. 500 ton cargo capacity would allow you to import, or export, 8 Abrams at a time.
Or three 160-ton wind turbines, amounting to about 6MW of generating capacity.

Useful capability to have.

EDIT
Turns out the Victorian fondness for airships IC wasn't so dumb after all. Crazy, not stupid.
:p :p :p

IT BEGINS

 
I'm not sure how well a SAM would perform against an airship.
The fabric envelope will probably not trigger the warhead proximity fuse...
I don't think I believe that. Airships are visible on radar- they are in fact rather large radar targets. As such, they can trigger a radar proximity fuze.

More generally, are we talking about an airship, a manned one, or a flying "aerostat" drone, or what? Don't move the goalposts. Manned airships are very vulnerable to things that unmanned high altitude drones might be virtually immune to... but while Victoria might be using manned airships, we can be pretty sure they're not using drones.

It's designed to land on rough strips, and it has excellent STOL capability. Dual engines.
Depending on the version you're flying, you can get it down to a landing roll of 755 feet, and a takeoff roll of 855 feet while carrying a full load.
And it can do water landings, snow and ice landings, as well as the standard tarmac/grass/dirt.

For comparison, a C-130 at full load takes around 1km to get off the ground with 19 tons.
The DC-3 takes 900 feet to take off, 1640 feet to land, and carries 5 tons.
OK that's relatively nice- though we need to remember that building large airplane engines is actually rather challenging and will probably require us to take some industrial development actions, assuming we aren't just buying them off the foreign market as is fairly likely.

This is GM fiat territory. Still.
It bears reminding that we built 50s/60s/70s??? radar guided SAMs to protect our armies and cities. It took effort, and we had to leave the heartland bare to cover Detroit and the field army, but we did it.

1950s turboprop aircraft engines are not exactly high tech in comparison. The metallurgy is not very different from what was available in WW2.
I'm not saying we can't do it, but... well, look, I'm not interested in doing this dance with you for the 100th time. I'm tired, and expressing what I'm trying to say to you is probably a losing proposition. I will note that our SAMs would have engines that only need to work once, for a relatively short period of time, and that we could make them big if we had to, while only actually getting a range of like 20-30 miles or so. Aircraft engines that have to be reliable and made to fine tolerances... Again, I KNOW we can in principle do it, but there is every reason to think it's gated behind some actions, okay?

As for runways, it's been forty years of non-maintenance in Midwest winters.
And I'm given to understand that winters in that part of the world are intense; having seen Detroit's roads, I'm willing to believe it.
There's a reason I'm looking for aircraft with short takeoff rolls and dirt strip performance.
I mean, yes in that the runways are basically long strips of gravel by now, unless there were some the Victorians were willing to allow to stay in service (say, because they want to be able to fly into places).

On the other hand, rebuilding those runways is... not insurmountable, though it does present good arguments for a short takeoff and landing, yes.
 
-According to the figures you gave me, BC accounts for 30% of Canada's forestry exports. Quebec is 28%.
You're misreading the figures- 28% and 30% is the gross GDP, not the net exports. Those are one graph down, with BC exporting ~$14 billion worth of forestry stuff and Quebec exporting a hair under $10 billion.

Also, Russia is already a major supplier of forestry products - North American forestry decline directly benefits Russia because they're well placed to step into the gap (especially given the extra land they annexed, which includes other major producers of certain forestry products like Latvia or Estonia). There's not much need for Russia to support forestry operations in North America because North American consumption and production is fairly close - the difference can easily be made up by increasing Russian production. That's money that's going straight back into Alexander's pocket without needing to spend a bunch on maintaining forestry services way the hell out in some third-world backwater like North America.

As for why I'm talking about a Victorian airship industry - it's what this line of arguing was originally about. i.e. the possibility that Victoria building and maintaining a blimp fleet they way they say they do in Rumford's memoirs actually making practical and economical sense rather than being dumb.

Source for global production/consumption figures
 
I don't think I believe that. Airships are visible on radar- they are in fact rather large radar targets. As such, they can trigger a radar proximity fuze.
Are you sure about that?
First four Google results say the opposite, from the lower IR signature of their engines to the fact that the fabric envelope doesn't really show up.
And at least one of them talks about damage in operational terms.

Note that these were helium LTAs; ones with hydrogen might be at more explosive.
Or maybe not, given forty years of development and advanced material use ; it's not like aircraft with leaking fuel invariably burst into flames either.
More generally, are we talking about an airship, a manned one, or a flying "aerostat" drone, or what? Don't move the goalposts. Manned airships are very vulnerable to things that unmanned high altitude drones might be virtually immune to... but while Victoria might be using manned airships, we can be pretty sure they're not using drones.
Cargo airship would be manned naturally.
Surveillance would be an aerostat UAV, since there would be little point to putting a person on one of those.
Sorry if I was imprecise.

OK that's relatively nice- though we need to remember that building large airplane engines is actually rather challenging and will probably require us to take some industrial development actions, assuming we aren't just buying them off the foreign market as is fairly likely.
I assume that even if we were by some miracle building our own fighters instead of importing, we would import the fighter engines for the foreseeable future. Modern high end fighter engines are hard, as China's continued reliance on Russian fighter engines in some sensitive applications demonstrated for the last several years.

Barring some manufacturing breakthrough in the last forty years, I assume we're stuck in much the same rut.

But turboprop engines, or the sort of mid or low-end turbofan engine from the 70s or earlier, or in use on business jets as late as the 80s?
Those we should be able to do domestically, because the metallurgy isn't as crazy, and the actual pitfalls that tripped up aircraft designers for much of the 70s and 80s are pretty well known.

I'm not saying we can't do it, but... well, look, I'm not interested in doing this dance with you for the 100th time. I'm tired, and expressing what I'm trying to say to you is probably a losing proposition. I will note that our SAMs would have engines that only need to work once, for a relatively short period of time, and that we could make them big if we had to, while only actually getting a range of like 20-30 miles or so. Aircraft engines that have to be reliable and made to fine tolerances... Again, I KNOW we can in principle do it, but there is every reason to think it's gated behind some actions, okay?
Let's agree to disagree again.
This is probably GM fiat area anyway.

I mean, yes in that the runways are basically long strips of gravel by now, unless there were some the Victorians were willing to allow to stay in service (say, because they want to be able to fly into places).
On the other hand, rebuilding those runways is... not insurmountable, though it does present good arguments for a short takeoff and landing, yes.
Not insurmountable. Just expensive, at a time when we could use the investment elsewhere.
I mean, we probably want to rebuild Chicago O Hare's runways to handle >350-ton wide body airliners, and those of Detroit and it's metro area as well, as logistical nodes of our economy and military, and the logical destination of most flights.

The Vics have been kind enough to rebuild the airfields of Toledo as well so that it's fit to stage 20-ton F-16s out of it. But I don't think they bothered to make anything capable of handling 30-ton plus cargo airlifters they don't use.
And I don't think we can currently afford a general upgrade action.

Plus, when we inevitably go back to war and forward base in foreign territory, cargo planes that can operate off a grass/dirt strip, or even a runway that got bombed or sabotaged and was only repaired in haste by filling the holes with dirt?
Is a capability that will come in handy.

Even in peacetime, we probably can't assume that any other citystates we're talking to, or attempting to get emergency medical or military supplies to will have anything better than a dirtstrip. Afghanistan demonstrated that much.
 
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The Vics have been kind enough to rebuild the airfields of Toledo as well so that it's fit to stage 20-ton F-16s out of it. But I don't think they bothered to make anything capable of handling 30-ton plus cargo airlifters they don't use.
They were planning for the Russians to fly cargo planes full of supplies into Toledo as the Detroit Campaign got ugly.
 
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