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[X] Revivalist Movements

I am interested in this idea. partially for the civ building which I always love, but mostly for the sheer catharsis that our destruction of these idiots will bring me.
 
1) They will congregate in echo chambers anyway, as that it what people do.
2) People like this are rarely convinced by reason, so I have my doubts on the effectiveness of ridicule.
3) Opening up their views allows them to recruit far more effectively, and allows them to harass their targets.

And I don't believe fining a person nearly a thousand dollars for posting a video of a dog doing the Nazi salute is going to be effective in stopping any crimes(especially when it was explicitly A JOKE). There are other ways to go about this than criminalization.

And a lot of these issues are likely going to be irrelevant anyway. If you are criminally harassing someone and are caught you will be charged with criminal harassment. The sentence shouldn't be upped just because it was about the person's race or religion rather than a personal issue.
 
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I'm interesting in what news you think is evidence of it not being a false dilemma.

Does the Nazi Pug incident ring any bells? How about the fact that it's all but illegal to criticize Islam in several European countries, or the fact that people in Germany were arrested for criticizing their country's immigration policy? Going back to the UK how about the fact that a girl was arrested, and convicted of hate speech for daring the quote a fucking rap song on facebook?
 
Guys enough, let's take it to the relevant thread, okay?

Edit: @PoptartProdigy Are you going to include an option to recruit all those Gun Smiths and small munitions factories that are scattered all throughout the Midwest? And what happened to Montana and North Dakota, the state's with the most active ICBMs atm?
 
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Oh no, see what we need to do is stop talking about the election and the current state of the US because it's wholly irrelevant to what we're about to be doing because none of it applies.

Who's done that? I've only seen people talking about total free speech vs regulated speech.

Otherwise I'd be glad to but I am going to respond when someone says its a good thing to restrict what people can say.
 
1. NO COMMUNISM! God do you people want to make things even worse! We'll NEED European support if we want to get anywhere due to our starting position and they won't support a communist state when they can just keep supporting New York.

What kind of support do you expect from Europe?
It's not like they have any reason to support us except "Enemy of my enemy", and ideology wouldn't have much of an effect on that one.

We don't need to keep the name, true - it'd be better to rebrand. But cribbing the ideology? Promising people (relative) prosperity, when we explicitly would be able to deliver it in achievable amount of time (Since the best on continent is a rump degraded to 1960s, when calendar is a century further - with all the technological advancements such a timespan implies)? Giving them something to strive for?

It is not a bad pick. Maybe not the best, but you could do way worse.

2. We should take up the Old Constitution as the outline of our government as that will be very easy for the disaffected people thought the country to rally behind. Also will lend legitimacy to us even if nobody from the old government is part of ours. Also before anyone points out that the old government collapsed due to a lack of confidence that was most likely because of the bureaucracy in the system and the time with all the chaos will likely give them rose tinted glasses for those final years before collapse.

Exploiting nostalgia and using old-school organisation practices is a pretty solid choice - one of the best ones, probably. Less mistakes to be made, and all that.
The only problem that I see is that the same applies to our enemy, as it rose out of the ashes of old USA and defeated numerous successors attempting the same "restoration" shtick.

Like, Victoria's propagandists/diversants/spies and their Ohranka handlers were trained to oppose exactly such a polity.
 
Oh no, see what we need to do is stop talking about the election and the current state of the US because it's wholly irrelevant to what we're about to be doing because none of it applies.

Except insofar as the ideology of the player faction will be a topic of relevance, and its circumstances sufficiently resemble modern ones that the options in play will be recognizable. Hence questions like "is the modern American right wing deeply associated with unacceptable positions" or "is the American Constitution ideal in its current form" (full disclosure: "yes" and "no," but I'm not making this post to argue those points right now) are going to come up & require a consensus from the thread.
 
Free speech has always been and always will be restricted in every society. Even in America, you can't yell fire in a crowded theater.

Hate speech causes harm in and of itself and harms discourse by its very nature. Allowing it is not worth the harm it causes.
 
For me, it's ideological grounds; I think organizing around local authorities who are extremely accountable to their local polities (who then federate at higher administrative levels via more elections and whom can be recalled) is ideally the best way to maintain local buy-in. We then use local buy-in to allow people to control their work, their products, and their own homes, while preventing larger polities/entities from smashing smaller peoples. We then pool those resources and alleviate shortages where necessary to ensure that those communities lacking in food, etc., are able to make up their shortfalls.

Further, I think trying to give people a shot at something better and at something that promises relative freedom from depravity, want, food insecurity, etc, is likely to get us further than simply trying to rally around Old Glory. Give people a better future instead of turning back toward nostalgia; the Victorians are an explicitly nostalgic sort of polity in the first place, trying to get "back" to a golden age where America was fabulous or something, even if they really are a regressive hellhole.

That said, I think quibbling exactly about what may or may not be banned under a hypothetical future government is probably putting cart before horse.
 
Guys enough, let's take it to the relevant thread, okay?

We are discussing the policy of our faction, as such this is entirely relevant to the thread we are in now.

The only problem that I see is that the same applies to our enemy, as it rose out of the ashes of old USA and defeated numerous successors attempting the same "restoration" shtick

It didn't rise out of the ashes of America, it made ashes of America. We are restoring, they are erasing and destroying.
 
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What kind of support do you expect from Europe?
It's not like they have any reason to support us except "Enemy of my enemy", and ideology wouldn't have much of an effect on that one.
The same kind they're giving to New York? I admit that a lot of that is their prior investments into the city but If they'd support a city surrounded by Victoria I'm pretty sure they'd support a viable anti-Russia revolution.

Exploiting nostalgia and using old-school organisation practices is a pretty solid choice - one of the best ones, probably. Less mistakes to be made, and all that.
The only problem that I see is that the same applies to our enemy, as it rose out of the ashes of old USA and defeated numerous successors attempting the same "restoration" shtick.

Like, Victoria's propagandists/diversants/spies and their Ohranka handlers were trained to oppose exactly such a polity.

As you said there are likely numerous successors who will be using that schitck why would they care about another one?

They'll be apposing ANY major power that isn't their puppet so why does it make a difference? Besides by the time we reach the level that they want to interfere I hope we'll have sufficiently hardened ourselves against corruption (as we could argue that's what led to the whole thing falling apart in the first place.)
 
And I don't believe fining a person nearly a thousand dollars for posting a video of a dog doing the Nazi salute is going to be effective in stopping any crimes(especially when it was explicitly A JOKE). There are other ways to go about this than criminalization.

And a lot of these issues are likely going to be irrelevant anyway. If you are criminally harassing someone and are caught you will be charged with criminal harassment. The sentence shouldn't be upped just because it was about the person's race or religion rather than a personal issue.

Does the Nazi Pug incident ring any bells? How about the fact that it's all but illegal to criticize Islam in several European countries, or the fact that people in Germany were arrested for criticizing their country's immigration policy? Going back to the UK how about the fact that a girl was arrested, and convicted of hate speech for daring the quote a fucking rap song on facebook?

Half of these arguments appear to be either conspiracy theories or grossly exaggerated. For example, it is neither illegal to criticize immigration policy or Islam.

The remaining 2 are not convincing on their own, for the following reasons:
1) As far as I can find, both cases screwed up the defense. The pug judgement explicitly says that the lawyers involved failed to present evidence based on freedom of speech, the other tried to argue that Instagram wasn't public, because you need a free account. If your defense is terrible, you can be arrested for any law.
2) There's a serious difference between a totalitarian state and a nation which erroneously punishes a joke every year or so.
3) There are other nations that aren't the UK.
 
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TBH, the main question is not if we can restore America, but if America is worth restoring in the first place. After all, it was the worst aspects of American culture and ideals that birthed Victoria.
 
Half of these arguments appear to be either conspiracy theories or grossly exaggerated. For example, it is neither illegal to criticize immigration policy or Islam.

The remaining 2 are not convincing on their own, for the following reasons:
1) As far as I can find, both cases screwed up the defense. The pug judgement explicitly says that the lawyers involved failed to present evidence based on freedom of speech, the other tried to argue that Instagram wasn't public, because you need a free account. If your defense is terrible, you can be arrested for any law.
2) There's a serious difference between a totalitarian state and a nation which erroneously punishes a joke every year or so.
3) There are other nations that aren't the UK.
And the UK was used as a good example of how it went wrong? don't see your point with 3.

Anyway look I'm not going to be able convince you that free speech is a good thing nor are you going to be able to convince me that restricting speech is a good thing. Let's just drop this before this derail goes on any longer.
 
TBH, the main question is not if we can restore America, but if America is worth restoring in the first place. After all, it was the worst aspects of American culture and ideals that birthed Victoria in the first place.

No it was birthed by the worst aspects of what a madman thought America was backed up by Russian money. He breaks the constitution so many times on his journey its actually hilarious you think he at all represents what America is. That's like saying we should have never restored German Democracy because Hitler rose out of it.
 
TBH, the main question is not if we can restore America, but if America is worth restoring in the first place. After all, it was the worst aspects of American culture and ideals that birthed Victoria.

I like this question; or perhaps we should instead be asking - what can we take from the old United States and take with us to build something better?
 
And the UK was used as a good example of how it went wrong? don't see your point with 3.

The problem is that you don't need 1 example. In order to back the claim that the idea of having either absolute free speech or totalitarian censorship is not a false dilemma, you need to provide evidence that no nation can exist in between the two examples.

So, 1 nation is not enough. You need all of them.
 
Who's done that? I've only seen people talking about total free speech vs regulated speech.
See:
Yep, these people make it real hard to be a Right-winger and get people to believe you do not in fact worship Hitler.
Ever since 2016 being right wing usually ascribes you to a certain brand. It's hard to see the other side as rational when their screaming insanity to your face and defending the indefensible.
We can discuss what our nascent nation values and how it should define itself but we don't need to even remotely reference the IRL or how one's personal politics are viewed by one group or another.

Maybe I'm jumping at nothing and drawing my blade early but seriously.

The current free speech argument is fine I have no issues with it, but there are careful lines to be trod here.
 
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