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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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Versharl said:
So on the one hand, you're worried about foreign interference in our economy early on, presumably through investment or perhaps merely trade. On the other hand, you claim that any investment is going to be minimal because of the Victorians and geographical isolation. Which one is it?
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It is possible for foreign investment to be both economically insufficient and politically influential. There is no contradiction.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
As a Revivalist movement rather than an established faction, you begin with -2 Legitimacy
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PoptartProdigy said:
The vote regarding how much the new Constitution favors any given ideology is admittedly fuzzy phrasing on my part stemming from my desire to be technically accurate and not use, "parties," when talking about the not-yet-parties. It is determining how much power political parties have to stomp their political opponents. Basically, the political parties get to enshrine their specific agenda in foundational law, the higher up on the scale you go. Sedition laws and such still exist; Victorians are not going to appear in your government unless they're hiding. And that's an intelligence problem, not a legal writing problem.
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Well, I know that I'm voting for No Crush now. Not only does it bring our legitimacy up to zero, it's also the right thing to do.

PoptartProdigy said:
Alexander is fucking ancient, barely clinging to life at this point. He has seventeen children by a variety of women, of whom two are legitimate. Alexander's advanced age, declining health, and fragile line of succession are all factors in Russia's recent distraction. The Empire is not operating at historical peak capacity.
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So time is on our side then? All we need to is wait for Alex to die of old age, and when the succession crisis starts, we make our move...
 
Versharl said:
So on the one hand, you're worried about foreign interference in our economy early on, presumably through investment or perhaps merely trade. On the other hand, you claim that any investment is going to be minimal because of the Victorians and geographical isolation. Which one is it?
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I am simply stating the facts. We do not benefit from a trade/foreign investment model in our situation. We are geographical isolated so we cant get it, and even if we weren't, our economy is simply too small and fragile. Protectionism is the policy that makes sense for us right now.

Once those two conditions have changed, then it benefits us to switch back to a free trade model. Simple as that.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
You obviously think it's VERY IMPORTANT that constitutions be Completely Rewritten frequently, but it's not clear why you're so confident of that, or why you even expect this to consistently produce change. I suspect that if the US actually had such an institution of frequent complete rewrites, we'd just keep rubber-stamping more or less identical copies of the old Constitution. If nothing else because at least we know what all the bugs and loopholes in the existing constitution are.
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The US competition was basically just a large bundle of compromises needed to get the nation together. What you need to compromise on evolve with time, and rewriting it would hopefully help doing away with the harmful compromises you no longer need or react to new issues.

The idea isn't necessarily that such a rewrite would be more thorough, but it is that the need for evolution would be enshrined and the people would be consulted more directly on what changes are needed. An existing government body is never going to abolish itself, no matter how useless or harmful it is. But a convention doesn't have those limits because it is selected solely to deal with the matter.

Look at an historical example of a country regularly rewriting its constitution: my own, France. Every republic has been broadly different and geared to do specific things. But because we didn't enshrine a review and rewrite in law, we're now having to fight to get it, despite it being sorely needed.
 
Gamerlord said:
So what's happening in the rest of the world? In the updates I've seen mention of Europe, China, Japan
and Russia, but what about Africa? The Middle East? How are Australia and the general 'Pacific' area doing?
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Yeah, I've not yet gone into comprehensive depth. Regarding your specific questions:

Africa is actually doing pretty okay. A lot of great powers wound up with pressing other concerns on their hands than continuing to exert influence in Africa during the Collapse, and since then, those that have reformed have all been focused elsewhere (Europe on Russia; China on Russia, East Asia, and the Pacific; Russia on Europe, China, and the Americas; etc. The result has been Africa actually getting some breathing space to itself for the first time since the damn Scramble. I won't say they've produced any great powers yet, but they are advancing onto the world stage in their own right.

I hate to have to say this, but the Middle East is on fucking fire right now. With the United States exploding, the worldwide oil market suffered heavily. Countries dependent on it rarely survived (for instance, Venezuela is currently three governments and five-to-eight civil wars later). Saudi Arabia and Iran, in particular, exploded, although they weren't the only ones. Cue other nations trying to take advantage/not die, cue others responding, and in and around all of this you would not believe how many people took the chance to take a shot at Israel (well, okay, you probably would). Things still have not settled down, and it's made all the worse by various great powers trying to prop up competing regimes in the region in order to get the oil trade back up and running on their terms.

Australia's actually doing pretty all right. The loss of international trade during the Collapse sure stung, not gonna lie, but they pulled through okay. They, Indonesia, and New Zealand are primary partners in a politically isolationist faction in the South Pacific, the primary objective of which is to keep out of the three-way power struggle between Russia, China, and Japan presently utterly consuming the rest of the Pacific. As such, while they mainly trade with China, they make a point of demonstrating political and economic independence at regular intervals.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
I hate to have to say this, but the Middle East is on fucking fire right now. With the United States exploding, the worldwide oil market suffered heavily. Countries dependent on it rarely survived (for instance, Venezuela is currently three governments and five-to-eight civil wars later). Saudi Arabia and Iran, in particular, exploded, although they weren't the only ones. Cue other nations trying to take advantage/not die, cue others responding, and in and around all of this you would not believe how many people took the chance to take a shot at Israel (well, okay, you probably would). Things still have not settled down, and it's made all the worse by various great powers trying to prop up competing regimes in the region in order to get the oil trade back up and running on their terms.
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I would honestly think that Iran probably survive the collapse of the Oil Market fairly well. Comparatively at the very least. It was never as Oil dependent as the other middle-Eastern Powers, and its internal economy was fairly robust all problems of the sanctions aside. Which isnt to say that it didnt hurt, or that the lost of America as an enemy to prop against didnt lead to some kind of political upheaval. This is not to mention that with Saudi Arabia collapsing, Iran probably pulled everything it could to prop up someone else to secure the position of the protector of Mecca, which likely didnt do its economy or politics any good.

I can also imagine that after a few years of a slow death and staring down Israel, Iran and Israel might have come to some kind of truce mediated by the European Union, not because they like each other, but because of the Goddamn Russian Bear. With Iran becoming something of a frontline/bulwark against Russian Influence. And by that I mean Iranian politicians having no choice but to become willing puppets on the strings of Europe and Russia, creating an uneasy and will soon to collapse equilibrium.
 
Deadly Snark said:
I would honestly think that Iran probably survive the collapse of the Oil Market fairly well. Comparatively at the very least. It was never as Oil dependent as the other middle-Eastern Powers, and its internal economy was fairly robust all problems of the sanctions aside. Which isnt to say that it didnt hurt, or that the lost of America as an enemy to prop against didnt lead to some kind of political upheaval. This is not to mention that with Saudi Arabia collapsing, Iran probably pulled everything it could to prop up someone else to secure the position of the protector of Mecca, which likely didnt do its economy or politics any good.

I can also imagine that after a few years of a slow death and staring down Israel, Iran and Israel might have come to some kind of truce mediated by the European Union, not because they like each other, but because of the Goddamn Russian Bear. With Iran becoming something of a frontline/bulwark against Russian Influence. And by that I mean Iranian politicians having no choice but to become willing puppets on the strings of Europe and Russia, creating an uneasy and will soon to collapse equilibrium.
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I mean, the collapse of the oil trade was not the only thing to happen to Iran, it's just that I was noting general trends about the entire Middle East rather than giving a primer on Iranian history in particular. ;)
 
Deadly Snark said:
I would honestly think that Iran probably survive the collapse of the Oil Market fairly well. Comparatively at the very least. It was never as Oil dependent as the other middle-Eastern Powers, and its internal economy was fairly robust all problems of the sanctions aside.
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Here's a graphic that illustrates Iran's exports in 2010:
You're trying to tell me that's a country that's not extremely dependent on oil prices?
 
PoptartProdigy said:
They, Indonesia, and New Zealand are primary partners in a politically isolationist faction in the South Pacific,
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Yay, New Zealand is hanging in there.
Did the survivalist American billionaire sociopaths not make it over to the boltholes they're buying here in anticipation of the US going to hell and/or The People waking up and coming for them?
Shame.

Hmm, what about the South Pacific islands? Which are essentially New Zelands 'near abroad'.
That's a joint question connected with the very pertinent-to-them issue of current sea levels?
 
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Alliterate said:
Yay, New Zealand is hanging in there.
Did the sociopathic American survivalist billionaires not make it over to the boltholes they're buying here when the US goes to hell?
Shame.

Hmm, what about the South Pacific islands? Which are essentially New Zelands 'near abroad'.
That's a joint question connected with the very pertinent-to-them issue of current sea levels?
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Survivalist billionaires were shockingly unpopular on New Zealand during the collapse, actually. How unexpected.[/s]

Depends on the islands. Some nearer ones are trust territories or protectorates. Otherwise, this alliance lacks the power projection relative to the great powers to really stick their necks out too much for the various island nations.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Survivalist billionaires were shockingly unpopular on New Zealand during the collapse, actually. How unexpected.[/s]

Depends on the islands. Some nearer ones are trust territories or protectorates. Otherwise, this alliance lacks the power projection relative to the great powers to really stick their necks out too much for the various island nations.
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I confess to being a little (but pleasantly) surprised Australia isn't a Chinese open cast mine from Perth to Sydney and New Zealand some sort of agricolony.
China must have been distracted.
 
Alliterate said:
I confess to being a little (but pleasantly) surprised Australia isn't a Chinese open cast mine from Perth to Sydney and New Zealand some sort of agricolony.
China must have been distracted.
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Very sidetracked. Russia and Japan have been a pain, and China is still recovering from another round of Being China. That said, the alliance is aware that eventually, somebody up north is going to win...
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Very sidetracked. Russia and Japan have been a pain, and China is still recovering from another round of Being China. That said, the alliance is aware that eventually, somebody up north is going to win...
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China, most likely, if quest goes To Plan.
Because the quest going To Plan almost certainly means Russia was distracted and weakened enough that NCR frees itself, the Norcs fall, and perhaps even Japan gets pushed out of the Pacific coastline.
So the players in the tentative 'anti-China Alliance of convenience' in east Asia are weakened, and presumably China takes advantage.
 
@PoptartProdigy Is there any actual explanation for how Russia was able to become such a huge global superpower? I'd more easily have envisaged China as playing that role, given its far larger population and more developed economy, as well its stronger and more resilient political apparatus.
 
Versharl said:
Here's a graphic that illustrates Iran's exports in 2010:
You're trying to tell me that's a country that's not extremely dependent on oil prices?
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I said comparatively. Especially when the Comparison is Saudi Arabia which is a patchwork of a nation held entirely by the Oil Sales, US support and the personal fortune of the Princes which relies on the former two. Iran as a state has things supporting its politics and economy other than Oil, and it has plans to survive without Oil Exports, especially since its number 1 Deterrent against an US invasion for decades was shutting down the Oil Trade.

That does not mean that the collapse didnt hurt. Merely that Iran was crippled instead of killed outright like Saudi Arabia was on the onset. That does not mean that it is in any way or form a good position. Especially in the power vaccum it likely desperately tried to fill in the aftermath would have likely caused it to overextend.

And if you know anything about modern Iranian History, you would know that the End result I proposed, of Iran relying on European Money while staring down the Russian Army and agents of both sides play havoc in the country's politics is bound to trigger extremely PTSD in its populace. Since it would be an deliberate callback to the Persian Constitutional Revolution, where the Iranian people and the parliament rose up to overthrow the Qajar Dynasty and established a democratic state. Only for said state to be strangled in its cradle by a combination of British Financial Fuckery and the Russian Imperial Army marching into the Capital and restoring the Qajar by force.

Nevermind the fact that the most valuable thing Iran would be able to offer Europe for the support against Russia would be its oil. Which is in itself a painful reminder of the Colonial Days when Britain owned all the Oil Fields in the country.

That adds up to a result where the current Iranian government would be extremely unpopular domestically and be seen as illegitimate by all of its populace. It would only be kept alive by fear of Russia marching in again, or Russian Agents subverting countermovements. But once that pressure lessens... Oh fucking boy take cover.
 
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Ptolemy said:
@PoptartProdigy Is there any actual explanation for how Russia was able to become such a huge global superpower? I'd more easily have envisaged China as playing that role, given its far larger population and more developed economy, as well its stronger and more resilient political apparatus.
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In the book, it was Plot. Here I try to make something minimally viable. Essentially, all nations ate it hard during the collapse. China has another round of Being China, my code for that whole, "the empire, having united, must divide," history cycle they have going. Most other countries are busy concerning themselves with themselves, or alternatively themselves becoming something else extremely rapidly and with great violence.

Then there's Russia. Thanks to blind luck, a swift regime change to Tsar Alexander, and Alexander being a legitimate genius, Russia pulls out of the nosedive before anybody else is even close. Russia then uses this opportunity to go ham on all of its small neighbors and knife the USA while it's still recovering. They have, however, badly overextended, and now their various competitors are getting back up.

I don't actually think that any of this would happen, mind. It's just meant to be something we can look at and respond to with, "ugh, fine, whatever, that'll do. Can I go fight Victorians now?"
 
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I like to treat Victoria (the book) as a in-universe propaganda piece written some time after Rumford's death as a way of writing history to fit their ideological narrative. That it contradicts itself so plainly is obvious to us, but to people living in that world it might be possible to 1984 the Victorian Citizens into believing the events took place exactly as described. After all we trust schools to teach people what happened in the past, but it doesn't matter if the state edits the textbooks.

What I'm saying is that I believe that we should take the history of the Rise of Victoria with a salt shaker. That though they might portray themselves as a zealous, agrarian utopia, I'm certain that they aren't as powerful as they portrayed in the novel and beneath the surface they've got a lot of unsolved problems.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
In the book, it was Plot. Here I try to make something minimally viable. Essentially, all nations ate it hard during the collapse. China has another round of Being China, my code for that whole, "the empire, having united, must divide," history cycle they have going. Most other countries are busy concerning themselves with themselves, or alternatively themselves becoming something else extremely rapidly and with great violence.

Then there's Russia. Thanks to blind luck, a swift regime change to Tsar Alexander, and Alexander being a legitimate genius, Russia pulls out of the nosedive before anybody else is even close. Russia then uses this opportunity to go ham on all of its small neighbors and knife the USA while it's still recovering. They have, however, badly overextended, and now their various competitors are getting back up.

I don't actually think that any of this would happen, mind. It's just meant to be something we can look at and respond to with, "ugh, fine, whatever, that'll do. Can I go fight Victorians now?"
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See, I would just blame Baba Yaga.
 
Whumbly said:
I like to treat Victoria (the book) as a in-universe propaganda piece written some time after Rumford's death as a way of writing history to fit their ideological narrative. That it contradicts itself so plainly is obvious to us, but to people living in that world it might be possible to 1984 the Victorian Citizens into believing the events took place exactly as described. After all we trust schools to teach people what happened in the past, but it doesn't matter if the state edits the textbooks.

What I'm saying is that I believe that we should take the history of the Rise of Victoria with a salt shaker dried-up oceanbed worth of salt. That though they might portray themselves as a zealous, agrarian utopia, I'm certain that they aren't as powerful as they portrayed in the novel and beneath the surface they've got a lot of unsolved problems.
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FTFY :V

(chrissakes, how tf would you even maintain tanks with Retrotechnology?)
 
PoptartProdigy said:
By making them T-34s. Literally, they use T-34s.
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Heres hoping we have a few Abram's lying around, and we can get them ready enough to go all Desert Storm on those fucks.

I know enough about Tanks to know that the T-34 is inferior to the Abrams in every way, especially if they have all the nice tech that made them unstoppable in Desert Storm.

(Yes I know the coalition had air superiority too and were bombing the shit out of the Iraqi forces, but the Abrams steamrolled all opposition when they went in)
 
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