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[][IDEALS] Social Democrat: Centered around the idea that it is the state's responsibility to ensure a bare-minimum standard of living, the Social Democrats add to the New Capitalist agenda with a push for a government guarantee of adequate housing, food, and water to all citizens -- itself a fairly titanic task. It remains rooted in the fundamental ideal of private enterprise. The Social Democrats have some interest in the potential of democratized workplaces and are willing to support them in an experimental measure.
[][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.
[][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need
[ ][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.


I personally lean towards being a Moderate, so many of these are not extremist leanings as a result. There is improvement, just not so much of it that it causes immense social unrest, which we can't afford right now. When the Moratorium lifts I'll be voting this way, most likely.
 
What is the dominant economic ideology of your first government? Bear in mind that these are the ideologies as they exist in Victoria Falls, not a true-to-life representation of their aims in modern reality. Decouple your assumptions. The non-dominant ideologies will remain significant and powerful forces in government, but the winner will have a majority government at game start.

[ ][IDEALS] Social Democrat: Centered around the idea that it is the state's responsibility to ensure a bare-minimum standard of living, the Social Democrats add to the New Capitalist agenda with a push for a government guarantee of adequate housing, food, and water to all citizens -- itself a fairly titanic task. It remains rooted in the fundamental ideal of private enterprise. The Social Democrats have some interest in the potential of democratized workplaces and are willing to support them in an experimental measure.
  • Legitimacy+
  • Pisses off Communists.
  • Appealing to a wide international audience, although the shift may prompt some minor caution. Foreign investment is going to like the market, given its similarity to most of the markets from which they'll be coming; if you have something worth their time, they will come. You are less of an obvious soft economic target to begin with, here.
  • Select democratized businesses from a selection of industries gain government subsidies in order to give them a head start and see how they play.
[ ][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for all citizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
  • Legitimacy-
  • Pisses off New Capitalists.
  • This is a radical shift for a nation claiming descent from the old United States and will concern many. Furthermore, the state of your market will make you deeply unattractive to foreign investment. This has the advantage of serving as a kind of protectionism during your economy's weak phase.
  • Democratized businesses are explicitly favored in law over private businesses.
How much legal authority does the central government have to suppress dissenting viewpoints?

[ ][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.
  • Legitimacy+
  • Slightly hypocritical, but can be creatively interpreted as demanding the people's united voice on these critical issues
  • Minority parties realize how you view them and aren't neutered
  • Even losing doesn't roll back all of your gains unless you've fucked up in spectacular fashion
  • People may find...creative...ways of effecting change
How centralized is this thing?

[ ][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need
  • Maintains centralization while improving your ability to manage local affairs
  • Gives concessions to subordinate polities while maintaining power in Chicago
How closely does this congress cleave to the text of the original Constitution?

[ ][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.
  • Legitimacy--
  • Absolute freedom to draft new foundational legislation
  • Traditionalists are insulted by the attitude towards the nation's history, but this strongly invokes the Revivalist movement's spirit of reforming the old ways
Current inclinations here: I think that repeating the mistake of unfettered capitalism (and especially if people ignorantly pick the worst possible constitutional option which is to retain the US constitution, which survived for 250 years largely because most of the things people think are actually in the constitution... weren't, really) is not great. Communism is probably a bridge too far because of its unpopularity, unless people are willing to back maximum authoritarianism-simply because if you start losing people will basically go and roll back and turn you not-communist. So that leaves two ideological options.

There is a very significant chance that we will be engaging in both conventional and unconventional warfare, which means that a strong security state is at least temporarily necessary. @PoptartProdigy I'd suggest for the legal authority against dissent we have another option:

Article:
[ ] CRUSH: Emergency Powers-The founding government is normally heavily democratic but gains significant powers to suppress dissent during times of emergency. When an emergency can be declared is dependent on the other choices but at the very least includes a state of war.
  • Nominally combines the best parts of the most options (fully democratic + fully authoritarian)
  • Is extremely unstable and can easily swing into either making a declaration of emergency politically non-viable or become fully authoritarian in an eternal state of emergency. When all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail...
  • Less popular than full democracy because of the state of emergency Sword of Damocles...
  • Might encourage scorched-earth tactics from opposition parties to take control of the emergency lever.
Source: Write-In Option


I think decentralization is tactically suboptimal because well, we're going to end up fighting a war, probably. You want some level of clear command organization to do exactly that.

And my thoughts on the original Constitution have already been said. It's a creature of the times, it almost certainly doesn't say what you think it says, the drafters were basically space aliens compared to modern or 2070s-era people, and the United States has largely gotten to where it is because of aggressive reinterpretations of the US constitution by the judiciary in response to popular demand, which means that really, it's not the original document which has been relevant.
 
I want the radical option for the constitution.

The US Constitution is just a huge tire fire by 21st century standards because it was basically a hasty compromise between a bunch of individual governments that was intended to last maybe 50 years.
MJ12? I remember that one of the original Founders of the US had a quote about the Constitution being only for 50 years. What was it.
 
[ ][IDEALS] New Capitalist: Aims to restore the old system with badly-needed revisions to address some of the obvious flaws. Among other things, it mandates a living minimum wage tied to government-collected measures, writes into foundational law the de-personhood of anybody who is not, in fact, an actual person, and institutes broad protections for employees against their employers (protected right to unionize, protections for whistleblowers, pension laws for companies, etc.). The New Capitalists do not give a single shit about democratized workplaces, positively or negatively, as long as they pay their taxes.

[ ][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.
[ ][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.

[ ][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
[ ][POWER] You are a decentralized federal state somewhat akin to the early United States.

[ ][TEXT] The old Constitution had its flaws, but it was a document of many strengths as well. It lasted two and a half centuries. We shall honor that and preserve the original. Our changes will be amendments, as intended, with our population approving them as specified in the text.
[ ][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.

This is the limit of what I will support(unless someone comes up with a good write in). Any further and the nation will become America in name only.
 
[ ][IDEALS] Social Democrat:

[ ][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

[ ][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.

[ ][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need
[ ][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

[ ][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
 
This is the limit of what I will support(unless someone comes up with a good write in). Any further and the nation will become America in name only.

I mean, America in the 21st century is "America in name only" by that standard given how ridiculously different basically everything is from the assumptions which were basically baked into the constitution and never questioned by the drafters though? I keep referring to the drafters of the US constitution as space aliens because their concerns and thought process might as well have been from Alpha Centauri to a 21st century person.
 
Looks like the discussion is already taking off....work's been crazy today so I don't know that I can really give this much thought yet, but I'm definitely willing to talk and coalition-build with folks (for whatever that's worth).
 
I mean, America in the 21st century is "America in name only" by that standard given how ridiculously different basically everything is from the assumptions which were basically baked into the constitution and never questioned by the drafters though? I keep referring to the drafters of the US constitution as space aliens because their concerns and thought process might as well have been from Alpha Centauri to a 21st century person.

Okay but how much has the actual layout of the government changed? Bureaucracy and minor edits to the constitution. I don't care if the founders were thinking differently when they originally signed the constitution(and while I admit their thought process would be different I think you're blowing it out of proportion) as they knew times would change by allowing the constitution to be amended.
 
After all, if we can agree to amend the constitution isn't it serving it's purpose?
To be honest the whole point of the constitutional convention is to bypass the usual process of amendment. So long as the whole shindig is convened roughly under the rules given in the 1787 Constitution and has the support of the people we can effectively replace anything and everything and it's still legitimate. Hell, in theory we could invite Joshua Norton's heirs out from Frisco and crown him Emperor of America and make it constitutional if we wanted.

That said, my thinking is with @MJ12 Commando on this one: the Constitution is a powerful symbolic document, but by 2070 it's about as relevant to modern concerns as the Magna Carta. Let it go to the history books and we forge ahead with something new.

All we need to do is reform and wait for the other shoe to drop which will like come in the form of the death of Tsar Alexander the IV (the man is AT LEAST 75 at this point). The only reason Russia has turned into such a Juggernaut is him and no man lives forever.

(also why are you calling them Norks? They're called obviously Vicks)
"All we need to do is nothing and the problem will solve itself" sounds a lot like, well, what everybody was saying back when the Norks and the Russians were rising. Clearly this worked out exactly to keikaku and nothing bad ever happened in North America. A brilliant plan, maestro.

As for why I'm calling them Norks? They started as the Northern Confederation; Victoria is their self-selected name after all their bullshit and I refuse to give the shitstains even that little scrap of dignity. Norks they were and Norks they shall remain, unto the final generation.
 
And my thoughts on the original Constitution have already been said. It's a creature of the times, it almost certainly doesn't say what you think it says, the drafters were basically space aliens compared to modern or 2070s-era people, and the United States has largely gotten to where it is because of aggressive reinterpretations of the US constitution by the judiciary in response to popular demand, which means that really, it's not the original document which has been relevant.
Would you be willing to compromise and also approval vote for the middle element, which rewrites the entire Constitution according to the modern perception of what the Constitution meant?
 
[ ][IDEALS] Social Democrat

[ ][CRUSH] None
[ ][CRUSH] Some

[ ][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need
[ ][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

[ ][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
[ ][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.
 
Okay but how much has the actual layout of the government changed? Bureaucracy and minor edits to the constitution. I don't care if the founders were thinking differently when they originally signed the constitution(and while I admit their thought process would be different I think you're blowing it out of proportion) as they knew times would change by allowing the constitution to be amended.

A lot, actually. The powers the presidency has now would give Jefferson a heart attack.
 
As for why I'm calling them Norks? They started as the Northern Confederation; Victoria is their self-selected name after all their bullshit and I refuse to give the shitstains even that little scrap of dignity. Norks they were and Norks they shall remain, unto the final generation

Maybe NorCs would be better?
 
Okay but how much has the actual layout of the government changed? Bureaucracy and minor edits to the constitution. I don't care if the founders were thinking differently when they originally signed the constitution(and while I admit their thought process would be different I think you're blowing it out of proportion) as they knew times would change by allowing the constitution to be amended.

The actual layout of the government has changed to an utterly absurd degree. Like, just looking at the massive permanent standing armed forces the United States has in 2019, you can see how far the US government has changed from "standing armies are the devil." Or the existence of income tax rather than the federal government essentially funding solely through tariffs on international commerce. Or the modern bureaucratic state at all. Or how the First Amendment is interpreted, because way back then all it meant was "the government cannot silence its own critics, literally everything else is fair game." Nowadays senators are elected and state electors are assumed to reflect the popular will of the state. This is a complete 180 from how the senate was specifically implemented in the 18th century to be an antimajoritarian system that was not intended to reflect popular will in any way, shape, or form.

The modern US is essentially unrecognizable compared to the 18th century US and the only reason people don't think this is the case is because of the amount of time that was spent getting to this state.
 
Unless we get some great writ-ins this will be my vote.

[ ][IDEALS] Social Democrat
[ ][IDEALS] Socialist

[ ][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.

[ ][POWER] You are a centralized unitary state with no subordinate governments.
[ ][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need

[ ][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
[ ][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.
 
"All we need to do is nothing and the problem will solve itself" sounds a lot like, well, what everybody was saying back when the Norks and the Russians were rising. Clearly this worked out exactly to keikaku and nothing bad ever happened in North America. A brilliant plan, maestro.

As for why I'm calling them Norks? They started as the Northern Confederation; Victoria is their self-selected name after all their bullshit and I refuse to give the shitstains even that little scrap of dignity. Norks they were and Norks they shall remain, unto the final generation.

Then allow me to correct myself because I worded that poorly. The situation will not be entirely solved by the death of Alexander but it will change vastly. Alexander is the only reason Russia has grown as powerful as it has and it is next to impossible that whoever succeeds him will be on his level. As well the only reason the old government fell was that next to nothing COULD be done at that point. They became desperate to the point of arming gang members after an economic collapse and massive plague in the south so since you brought it up what would YOU have done if you were in the old government's position?

I am in no way advocating we just wait and hope Russia and Victoria collapse. But at the same time your needless doom saying over how poorly implementing my vision would go is what sparked this argument so why didn't you respond to that part? Is it because you don't have a good counter and just decided to latch onto something else to continue? Regardless we should get back on track, so what do you propose, sorry if I missed it but theres just so many of people here its hard to keep track of who is proposing what.

(Just in case it isn't obvious by now this conversation is role-play lite on my end now)
 
Like, fundamentally the 18th century US constitution was basically a document that was attempting to paper over interstate conflicts and concerns by states of the federal government taking all their power. And of course there was the really big issue of slavery that basically pervades every step of how the US constitution was drafted back then.

Right now, we're not trying to create a compromise between slave states and free states, all of whom are afraid that the Big Bad American Government will go and dissolve their militias and render them powerless. Our compromise seems to largely be about the question of how much of a priority economic human rights are, and how to best grant those rights to people. The US constitution is not actually useful here, because the questions it sought to paper over are not the questions we care about.
 
Like, fundamentally the 18th century US constitution was basically a document that was attempting to paper over interstate conflicts and concerns by states of the federal government taking all their power. And of course there was the really big issue of slavery that basically pervades every step of how the US constitution was drafted back then.

Right now, we're not trying to create a compromise between slave states and free states, all of whom are afraid that the Big Bad American Government will go and dissolve their militias and render them powerless. Our compromise seems to largely be about the question of how much of a priority economic human rights are, and how to best grant those rights to people. The US constitution is not actually useful here, because the questions it sought to paper over are not the questions we care about.

OKAY! I GET IT! ITS CHANGED A LOT MORE THAN I THOUGHT!

Instead of just focusing one thing I've said can we actually get back to the point at hand. That is do you actually have any problems with what I proposed?
 
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OKAY! I GET IT! ITS CHANGED A LOT MORE THAN I THOUGHT!

Instead of just focusing one thing I've said can we actually get back to the point at hand. That is do you actually have any problems with what I proposed?

Your proposal is focused on emulating a failed state, which failed because of the specific things you want to emulate, to the detriment of planning for the situation as it stands.

I cannot approve of it and neither should anyone who doesn't want to create a failed state.
 
Your proposal is focused on emulating a failed state, which failed because of the specific things you want to emulate, to the detriment of planning for the situation as it stands.

I cannot approve of it and neither should anyone who doesn't want to create a failed state.

No! It failed because of a world wide economic collapse, centuries of corruption, a terrorist-bio attack unleashing a massive plague and foreign actors leaping on that opportunity. And by that logic we should never use democracies again because so many of those have fallen. I want something similar but better not a duplication! I want to fix the issues that led to this mess but I don't want slash and burn the whole thing.
 
The strawmanning is real.

The OP of this thread explicitly states that America became a failed state rife with sectarian strife and civil war.

This is because of the flaws in the American government system weakening the government and allowing for extremists to seize control of the discourse and create a rebellion with the assistance of foreign powers. Furthermore, these extremists were empowered by the memes passed on by the old American system of government, like the nonexistent "right to rebellion" and the idea that strong government is inherently an enemy of liberty.

So yes, emulating exactly why a failed state failed.
 
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