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Currently, the Commonwealth has -2 Legitimacy
Note that we're currently Legitimacy -2.

No we're not. -2 was our legitimacy score AT THE BEGINNING OF THE QUEST.

It has been stated multiple times that defeating Victoria was worth a few legitimacy points all by itself, we just don't know how many yet because Poptart still has to update the status screen
I'm honestly intrigued by the 7/4/2076 date choice. We'll get Russian negative attention, but we won't have to face it alone, or for long. And with our presence on the international world stage more expansive, Alexander's going to have to worry about what will happen if he just openly starts bombing us, the same way he had to worry about what would happen if he openly resupplied the Victorian army in Toledo and dared us to do something about it with the world's journalists watching.
Revealing it shortly after the Californian revolt sounds pretty good too, but I'd be willing to risk a good deal for the symbolic and political associations of that date. Besides, we'd be making the reveal 30 months into the 36-month time window the Californians were counting on. Maybe they'll decide they're ready enough and push "GO." ;)

I'd prefer to reveal it the same day of Cali's (pretty much) declaring independance from Russia. It would both be THE perfect moment (maybe even more perfect than choosing the 4th of July) AND it will hopefully split Russia's attention further.

Plus I fully expect diplomatic maluses with Native Americans and whatnot - still overcomeable if we prove ourselves, but something to keep in mind.

Did they even survive in meaningfull numbers?

Look, I do want to know if high Legitimacy makes it harder for us to create a pan-American Socialist Union, from the Atlantic to the Pacific and from the Arctic to Antarctica. If it does, is it really worth it?

Maybe a bit harder, but it won't make it impossible.

Still, baby steps. FIRST we aim for all the old USA territories. THEN we can maybe consider expansion/liberation of the rest of North America.

With Mexico we'll probably want to use Diplomacy, but most of Canada is in the hands of our enemies, so war is certainly an option then. And after They've been sent away Having their people join us shouldn't be that unlikely if we hadle it carefully.

For what it's worth, my distaste for legitimacy and Americana may well stem from my not being American, though I wouldn't say it's unfounded. I just really don't like it when America and its past are lionised like they are, and treating the Declaration of Independence as an American Excalibur (name of my band) rather than just an interesting historical document rankles me and shows hints of a culture that I'd rather the Commonwealth not develop.

Let's be fair, EVERY NATION lionise its past and tries to make it sound better than it was. USA is not special in that. Praise the good, minimise the bad.

The founding fathers were not saints, but they weren't monsters either. They were people from a different time, with a different upbringing and obviously a different sense of morality and ethics.

I assume the Greeks and Egyptians are proud of their history and past glory, even if, (unfairly) judging them by our modern standards, they were not actually good and enlightened people (by our, honestly unfair, standards)

Italy didn't become a united nation again peacefully, and while Garibaldi is widely celebrated as an hero in the popular opinion (and in the school curriculum) that doesn't change he actually invaded what at the time was a separate country and stole most of its gold and wealth, EVEN if he did it for the purpose of reuniting the long divided country.

In the end it's human to celebrate the good in our past and origins, and that's fine as long as we're not blinded to their faults and we're willing to try and be better than our ancestors were.







ALSO damn, 6 more pages since i last checked. and pretty long ones too! This thread moves so fast!
 
If high legitimacy means we can't have those things, then we should give the declaration to FCNY.
come on, it doesn't mean that! it simply means we're confusing them a bit, making them uncertain of what our goals and politics actually are.

mechanically speaking, it might raise the DC of some diplomatic actions a bit, which is fair as we end up being a faction with what is to them a relatively inconsistent agenda. Once we prove ourselves and become a KNOWN entity things will probably stabilize.

I mean, NOTHING has EVER stopped us from taking what actions we want to do, no matter what our legitimacy score is/was
 
Let's be fair, EVERY NATION lionise its past and tries to make it sound better than it was. USA is not special in that. Praise the good, minimise the bad.

The founding fathers were not saints, but they weren't monsters either. They were people from a different time, with a different upbringing and obviously a different sense of morality and ethics.

I assume the Greeks and Egyptians are proud of their history and past glory, even if, (unfairly) judging them by our modern standards, they were not actually good and enlightened people (by our, honestly unfair, standards)

Italy didn't become a united nation again peacefully, and while Garibaldi is widely celebrated as an hero in the popular opinion (and in the school curriculum) that doesn't change he actually invaded what at the time was a separate country and stole most of its gold and wealth, EVEN if he did it for the purpose of reuniting the long divided country.

In the end it's human to celebrate the good in our past and origins, and that's fine as long as we're not blinded to their faults and we're willing to try and be better than our ancestors were.
I still think there's a difference in how America treats the Liberty Bell or the Old North Church to how an Australian would treat, say, Ned Kelly's Armour? The taxidermied corpse of Duffy or Phar Lap? An original Albert Namatjira? It's actually hard to think of an example because I can think of no artefact, building, or person that my country holds in such worship as Americans seem to do their history.
 
I am deeply sorry for starting up the legitimacy talk again.

For what it's worth, my distaste for legitimacy and Americana may well stem from my not being American, though I wouldn't say it's unfounded. I just really don't like it when America and its past are lionised like they are, and treating the Declaration of Independence as an American Excalibur (name of my band) rather than just an interesting historical document rankles me and shows hints of a culture that I'd rather the Commonwealth not develop.

That said, if we're gonna try for legitimacy anyway, which it looks like we are, then fuck it, might as well do it on July 4 '76 to get all that star-spangled blood properly boiling.
I mean, every country has symbols that are important to them.

You are from some place. You were raised by people who had some idea of what it meant to be who and what they were. For the Greeks, being Greek meant speaking Greek, worshiping Greek gods, and dressing in Greek ways. To BE Greek was to ACT Greek. It was to attend the Olympic Games, to stand in the phalanx. To be a citizen of a Polis of one sort or another.

Despite Roman culture being Greek fanfiction, Romans had very different ideas of what it means to be Roman. The French and Germans and Russians all have their own conception of Frenchness or Germanness or Russianness. So to do us Americans have our own symbols of what it means to BE American. Symbols have meaning, for Christians the Cross is more than just two sticks affixed together perpendicular to each other.

It defines something.

And while many American christians might claim that reverence of such a symbol would be akin to idolatry, to stomp on a cross in front of a Christian has a meaning and conveys a message and that Christian no matter where they were from would feel a little bit offended by the act.

Americans have symbols. Our country stands for something in our minds. We have ideals we aspire to, and we aspired to them even when we failed horribly, or our founding fathers intended only for straight white men of wealth to vote, or when they pushed Natives out of their land by hook or by crook. Ideas are bullet proof, even when those ideas are a polite fiction if you repeat them often enough people start to believe in them.

They start to believe in them sincerely, they take them to their logical conclusion.

We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal. These words only referred to straight white men of wealth and standing. It did not refer to the poor, or to the illiterate, or to African slaves, or natives, or foreigners. But thats what ended up happening because when we read those words, we dont read 'We hold these truths to be self evident, that all straight white landed men of some literacy and standing are created equal'.

So we believe those words with an idealistic naivety disconnected from the context of their creation, and thus they mean something to us, something timeless. Something unifying, and that was the intent behind those words when they were written. The declaration of independence represented ALL the people in the colonies, all who were American or called themselves American. Thus the words became more than just words on a piece of paper. To us, they mean something more.

They are an ideal our forefathers aspired to achieve, and they are an ideal we can also aspire to achieve.

People keep fighting over the house where Hitler was born. Why? its a house, his family only lived there for three years. Yet there is a massive legal battle to demolish it.

Why do you think that is?

Why do you think that in the USA there is a battle to demolish those cheap confederate soldier statues? Why were they even put up in the first place?

Because the house, like the Declaration, like the statues, is more than just an object to some people. Just because you have different symbols to us does not mean that our symbols have no value, or that they are not important to us.

Think of what symbols you have that represent to you what it means to be German, or French or wherever it is you are from. What symbols are important to you, what has meaning in your life?

It doesn't even have to be something as grand as a national symbol. People can have personal things that mean stuff to them.

But for me? The DoI is important, it has meaning, it represents the ideals this nation was founded upon. Ideals we so often failed, or even lived in opposition towards. Yet it is part of the foundational myth of the country and the people. It is wrong to deny its importance, or to just throw it away or hide it. We should not have to live in fear of those who would destroy it for their own cynical purposes. We should be proud of what we are trying to build, we should share it with as many people as possible, to include as many people as possible.

This is not something I can in good conscience hide away as if it were some trinket. We should shout it from the summits and the hillsides and the rooftops. The Declaration of Independence is an idea, and ideas are bullet proof.

I still think there's a difference in how America treats the Liberty Bell or the Old North Church to how an Australian would treat, say, Ned Kelly's Armour? The taxidermied corpse of Duffy or Phar Lap? An original Albert Namatjira? It's actually hard to think of an example because I can think of no artefact, building, or person that my country holds in such worship as Americans seem to do their history.

That just means that you have different symbols regarding what it means to be Australian. They dont have to be tangible objects, not everyone has a Book of Kells, or a liberty bell. Sometimes it could be a folk hero or founding figure or a religion or a ritual or tradition.

Every society is different and has different symbols. But they all have their own symbols. You arent an American, so you do not ascribe the same meaning to American symbols the way Americans do.
 
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Founding Fathers being apostles of American civic religion and finding DoI being equivalent of finding a nail from Jesus' Cross is not really something new at all though. Half of their legal anything is trying to interpret, in a very theological manner, "what would Jesus, I mean Founding Fathers, think of this?".

I guess we find it alien cause we are not Americans and thus were not educated since childhood to pray to Constitution every day or whatever rituals they go through over there to make them so faithfully dedicated to two-centuries-old piece of paper written by rich landowners rebelling against other rich landowners. /shrug


I wonder how much does pro/anti/whatever-Legitimacy split in quest correlate with poster being American? :V

edit: although, in interests of cultural sensitivity to alien cultural quirks of other nations, I should be a tad less flippant about those things. My bad I guess?
Meh, I can understand it. It's weird for me how other countries hold up symbols of national pride, like England with its Crown Jewels, Poland with the Witcher games, etc.

From my perspective, the Declaration is widely considered the start point of America. Before that we were just thirteen colonies who didn't really like each other. For all the bad that has come from the American Dream and Manifest Destiny, it was those ideals that spurred the abolition movement, that got us involved in World War 2, and that drove Martin Luther King's March. We learn about those ideals and principles about that document in primary school, when we're still young and naive and forming opinions about the world. The document is as much a manifestation of the Idealized America as it is the factual, existential America.

I'm saying this as an American who holds no respect for my factual nation, and kinda loathes it as it actually exists. The ideal and the dream that yesteryear seems to embody is something I wish was real. A symbol of that dream is goddamn potent.
 
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From a purely gameplay perspective, the DoI seems to be explicitly a bonus for taking that national spirit at nation creation. If we don't make use of it, we kinda waste it.
 
I still think there's a difference in how America treats the Liberty Bell or the Old North Church to how an Australian would treat, say, Ned Kelly's Armour? The taxidermied corpse of Duffy or Phar Lap? An original Albert Namatjira? It's actually hard to think of an example because I can think of no artefact, building, or person that my country holds in such worship as Americans seem to do their history.
I repeat this. The DOI holds enough significance that Indonesian and Vietnamese revolutionaries tried to copy it for their own declaration .

Hell. If anything. I say having the DOI should earn some brownie points with PAC.

Mechanically also, as our power increases, we going to face more resistance from other American citizens, as our universe is set in a tide of American revivalism.

And then there's middle Legitimacy, which is broadly where you are.
We here now as per QM . No ideas mechanically the point score and I bet if anything legitimacy scores are different for various powers. For Detroit, our legitimacy score can be sky high as we taken on Defender of the Midwest AND actually defended them from Victoria. For Transverse city, it might be medium because Defender of the Midwest and we didn't annex MacKineze island, but we did take over Detroit and Hostile Neighbourhood. For Cali its low for govt, but maybe medium to high for citizens. Although for quest sake, I take the government only but not QM. Miami might rank us as negative for all we know if they imbided enough Victorian/Russian propaganda, which we know Alexander did.

Lastly, I think another factor is population. We know that Americans like the idea of USA. That means people will migrate to us, especially since we have welfare that no other city state has. Both Miami and NVR doesn't sound like they have the kinda welfare we promise and we ARE trying to do this. So. People are going to come in. And with legitimacy, even skilled people, like any scientist or engineer will be drawn to us.


Which brings me to my last point. The refugee crisis is now urgent, especially since we expunged Victorian sympathizers. We gained one AP due to feeding and housing migrants. Not only are migrants now a potential source of disruption ,albeit one that Unionists can't exploit, they are an economic resource. Legitimacy may or may not give us more migrants but our success will, and the more we succeed here, the more AP we get which we need.

It's enough that while I consider industry like transport or energy important, I defer them to focus on this, both to remove problems and gain AP. Even with DC reductions from a successful conference.

The only thing that will cause me to defer AP from this is the intelligence threat although I won't deny I'm concerned about security issues as well.


I think our next steps should be resolving our internal politics and food first meaning if we can point in census,food, and citizens with any local diplomacy. Then transport infrastructure and finally Intel. I willing to run the risk of a weak military for now as we bashed in Victoria.
 
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Meh, I can understand it. It's weird for me how other countries hold up symbols of national pride, like England with its Crown Jewels, Poland with the Witcher games, etc.

From my perspective, the Declaration is widely considered the start point of America. Before that we were just thirteen colonies who didn't really like each other. For all the bad that has come from the American Dream and Manifest Destiny, it was those ideals that spurred the abolition movement, that got us involved in World War 2, and that drove Martin Luther King's March. We learn about those ideals and principles about that document in primary school, when we're still young and naive and forming opinions about the world. The document is as much a manifestation of the Idealized America as it is the factual, existential America.

I'm saying this as an American who holds no respect for my factual nation, and kinda loathes it as it actually exists. The ideal and the dream that yesteryear seems to embody is something I wish was real. A symbol of that dream is goddamn potent.

Eh, USA did some horrid things, but that's true of every polity, and it could be quite a bit worse.
It does not have moral superiority over most anyone (aside from like Northern Korea, Pol Pot and some others) and never lived up to its ideals (inasmuch as founding fathers ever believed in the lines they wrote - idk enough about them to have any idea one way or another), but it's...well, it's a country. It did what it did. It could be worse.
 
No we're not. -2 was our legitimacy score AT THE BEGINNING OF THE QUEST.
Noted.
I'd prefer to reveal it the same day of Cali's (pretty much) declaring independance from Russia. It would both be THE perfect moment (maybe even more perfect than choosing the 4th of July) AND it will hopefully split Russia's attention further.
Bad idea.
It both implies coordination between Cali and Chicago and possibly FCNY, and it invites additional Russian scrutiny.
And you are stuck with trying to hide a fragile document that requires professional care for over a year from rare experts whose movements are obvious.

You want it revealed well before.
 
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I mean, every country has symbols that are important to them.

You are from some place. You were raised by people who had some idea of what it meant to be who and what they were. For the Greeks, being Greek meant speaking Greek, worshiping Greek gods, and dressing in Greek ways. To BE Greek was to ACT Greek. It was to attend the Olympic Games, to stand in the phalanx. To be a citizen of a Polis of one sort or another.

Despite Roman culture being Greek fanfiction, Romans had very different ideas of what it means to be Roman. The French and Germans and Russians all have their own conception of Frenchness or Germanness or Russianness. So to do us Americans have our own symbols of what it means to BE American. Symbols have meaning, for Christians the Cross is more than just two sticks affixed together perpendicular to each other.

It defines something.

And while many American christians might claim that reverence of such a symbol would be akin to idolatry, to stomp on a cross in front of a Christian has a meaning and conveys a message and that Christian no matter where they were from would feel a little bit offended by the act.

Americans have symbols. Our country stands for something in our minds. We have ideals we aspire to, and we aspired to them even when we failed horribly, or our founding fathers intended only for straight white men of wealth to vote, or when they pushed Natives out of their land by hook or by crook. Ideas are bullet proof, even when those ideas are a polite fiction if you repeat them often enough people start to believe in them.

They start to believe in them sincerely, they take them to their logical conclusion.

We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal. These words only referred to straight white men of wealth and standing. It did not refer to the poor, or to the illiterate, or to African slaves, or natives, or foreigners. But thats what ended up happening because when we read those words, we dont read 'We hold these truths to be self evident, that all straight white landed men of some literacy and standing are created equal'.

So we believe those words with an idealistic naivety disconnected from the context of their creation, and thus they mean something to us, something timeless. Something unifying, and that was the intent behind those words when they were written. The declaration of independence represented ALL the people in the colonies, all who were American or called themselves American. Thus the words became more than just words on a piece of paper. To us, they mean something more.

They are an ideal our forefathers aspired to achieve, and they are an ideal we can also aspire to achieve.

People keep fighting over the house where Hitler was born. Why? its a house, his family only lived there for three years. Yet there is a massive legal battle to demolish it.

Why do you think that is?

Why do you think that in the USA there is a battle to demolish those cheap confederate soldier statues? Why were they even put up in the first place?

Because the house, like the Declaration, like the statues, is more than just an object to some people. Just because you have different symbols to us does not mean that our symbols have no value, or that they are not important to us.

Think of what symbols you have that represent to you what it means to be German, or French or wherever it is you are from. What symbols are important to you, what has meaning in your life?

It doesn't even have to be something as grand as a national symbol. People can have personal things that mean stuff to them.

But for me? The DoI is important, it has meaning, it represents the ideals this nation was founded upon. Ideals we so often failed, or even lived in opposition towards. Yet it is part of the foundational myth of the country and the people. It is wrong to deny its importance, or to just throw it away or hide it. We should not have to live in fear of those who would destroy it for their own cynical purposes. We should be proud of what we are trying to build, we should share it with as many people as possible, to include as many people as possible.

This is not something I can in good conscience hide away as if it were some trinket. We should shout it from the summits and the hillsides and the rooftops. The Declaration of Independence is an idea, and ideas are bullet proof.



That just means that you have different symbols regarding what it means to be Australian. They dont have to be tangible objects, not everyone has a Book of Kells, or a liberty bell. Sometimes it could be a folk hero or founding figure or a religion or a ritual or tradition.

Every society is different and has different symbols. But they all have their own symbols. You arent an American, so you do not ascribe the same meaning to American symbols the way Americans do.
I'm really trying to think here. What it means to be Australian is to have a mate called Davo who's a top bloke who always gives ya a Fair Go. It's a kind of story that represents the ideals that Australians are supposed to hold dear, unity and fairness and, to a weird extent, casualness, which seems to be the kind of thing you're talking about, but it's so intangible it's hard to map it with the raw force of 1776 or Four Score and Seven Years Ago. There are plenty of Australians that idolise the Eureka Flag or the Southern Cross, but people who drag those out any time other than Australia day are considered kind of weird. There are definitely symbols as to what it means to be Australian, but they don't seem to manifest in the same slightly worrying magnitude they do in the US and not many other places.

Your kids pledge allegiance at school every morning, if my understanding is right. I'm not trying to sound elitist or anything, but just trying to get across the cultural difference implicit in the fact that we don't do that here.
 
I'm really trying to think here. What it means to be Australian is to have a mate called Davo who's a top bloke who always gives ya a Fair Go. It's a kind of story that represents the ideals that Australians are supposed to hold dear, unity and fairness and, to a weird extent, casualness, which seems to be the kind of thing you're talking about, but it's so intangible it's hard to map it with the raw force of 1776 or Four Score and Seven Years Ago. There are plenty of Australians that idolise the Eureka Flag or the Southern Cross, but people who drag those out any time other than Australia day are considered kind of weird. There are definitely symbols as to what it means to be Australian, but they don't seem to manifest in the same slightly worrying magnitude they do in the US and not many other places.

Your kids pledge allegiance at school every morning, if my understanding is right. I'm not trying to sound elitist or anything, but just trying to get across the cultural difference implicit in the fact that we don't do that here.
Well yeah. You are a separate society from us. A Buddhist ritual wouldn't have the same impact on you, and the Lincoln Memorial wouldn't have the same impact on aBuddhist, and the idea of having a bloke who gives you a fair go doesnt mean the same thing to me.

Your symbols are just more abstract and less defined than ours. It reflect your countries origin I think. No great rebellion, no national struggle. That's not a bad thing mind you, but it defines the general character of what Australians think of when they think of what it means to be Australian.
 
I'm really trying to think here. What it means to be Australian is to have a mate called Davo who's a top bloke who always gives ya a Fair Go. It's a kind of story that represents the ideals that Australians are supposed to hold dear, unity and fairness and, to a weird extent, casualness, which seems to be the kind of thing you're talking about, but it's so intangible it's hard to map it with the raw force of 1776 or Four Score and Seven Years Ago. There are plenty of Australians that idolise the Eureka Flag or the Southern Cross, but people who drag those out any time other than Australia day are considered kind of weird. There are definitely symbols as to what it means to be Australian, but they don't seem to manifest in the same slightly worrying magnitude they do in the US and not many other places.

Your kids pledge allegiance at school every morning, if my understanding is right. I'm not trying to sound elitist or anything, but just trying to get across the cultural difference implicit in the fact that we don't do that here.
mobile.abc.net.au

Singapore to preserve Changi prison wall

Singapore says it will preserve a symbolic part of Changi prison to honour the memory of World War II veterans, many of them Australians, detained there by Japanese occupation troops.
Australians protested and threatened to damage Singapore Aussie relations when an expansion of Changi prison, needed for rehab space and etc was going to tear down a POW walls and mural art. Part of the trade-off was us giving relics to the Australia High Commission.

I... Not seeing that lack of reverence to be honest.
 
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That depends entirely on if we actually want to be the U.S. 2.0. :V

Also, thanks Nicolas Cage.
Ladies, Ladies, You're all beautiful but your also forgetting a very important fact. HOW THE HELL DID THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE GET ALL THE WAY TO CHIGACO FROM WASHINGTON DC!?
What @aceraptor said about librarians and staff getting it out of D.C. when everything starting going to shit.

As for how it ended up in Chicago...

The implication is that aside from long being a center of travel, Chicago has gone out of its way to collect knowledge and relics.
The Declaration likely ended up in Chicago either as a failed stop-over point, or was somehow gathered up with a bunch of other stuff later on.

My headcanon is that it was in fact Nicolas Cage who smuggled the DoI out of Washington.
 
I have a write-in to propose, actually.

[ ] Secretly inform the New California Republic and the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation (as well as discussing possible restoration efforts) with a coordinated public reveal to occur on July 4th, 2076.

This is more than just a matter of Chicago or the Commonwealth at stake. This is a matter for all American states. What better way to live up to the truest heart of that than to work together with the other states in throwing off the chains of an old-world monarch?

We know California is planning to go to war for her independence soon, after all. Return the favor of supporting our fellow American state, and give New York a chance for the same.
Coming up with reliable contacts in Cali is going to be involved enough that it'll need AP investment. If y'all want a Tricentennial reveal, I'll hold a vote next turn.
Note that we're currently Legitimacy -2.
This has to be negatively affecting our diplomatic DCs, especially in North America. We need to raise it a little.

There are countries IRL whose political independence has not been recognized despite de facto fact on the ground because their legitimacy is in question; see Puntland and Somaliland, that have been declaring themselves autonomous states for decades now, but remain internationally considered to be regions of Somalia.

If we have more Legitimacy, it pulls attention away from California to the Midwest, while making us better suited to uphold our part of the deal when Sister Cali declares independence and we recognize them. Which gives them a headstart in the diplomacy against Russia and Japan, and quickly pulls aggro away from us. Also will help us somewhat with any attempts to open a route down the Mississippi, if we're known to be the guardians of what's effectively a relic of the semi-mythic Old Country.

And frankly, if there's any two American successor states that have a seriousface, ongoing embedded Russian intelligence presence on the ground, FCNY and the NCR are it. I am not confident of our chances of keeping the existence of the Declaration secret for any sort of time. Not when we'd also have to recruit a team of authentication and restoration specialists to preserve the document.
Capital-L Legitimacy as in the game mechanic, not lowercase-l legitimacy as in diplomatic recognition of statehood. You have plenty of lowercase-l legitimacy.
[ ] It belongs in the trash bin of history. -10 Legitimacy, librarians revolt.

:V

(No, but seriously, can this become an option?)
If you wanted this sort of thing to be an option, you shouldn't have played Revivalists.
@PoptartProdigy , you're saying that the bare fact of our possession of the Declaration of Independence would sabotage peace talks?
The bare fact of announcing it, trumpeting it as a PR symbol, by sheer force of timing waving in the Vicks' faces that you are glorifying the country which they were born through the act of killing...those would sabotage peace talks, because there's absolutely no way Blackwell could justify negotiating peace with the kind of person who does that.
I think the thing that's got a lot of people tripping up, @PoptartProdigy , is the perception that high Legitimacy requires us to adopt politics and policies of the old United States, or that adopting high Legitimacy will somehow force us down that path whether we like it or not.

To be a bit uncharitable, people are operating under the idea that a high Legitimacy playthrough is one where the future-CFC is looking at actions like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery of African-Americans, hundreds of coups and injustices perpetrated with our help around the world, inequality and poverty at home, and various bloody foreign wars, and saying "YES! YES! That was us, and we'd do it again too, nyah-ha-haa!"

...

I don't really feel that this is what you mean about Legitimacy.

The reason I question it is that... well. The Commonwealth of Free Cities has a political system that rewrote most of the Constitution of the United States' core operating system, leaving only the Bill of Rights and maybe some fiddly bits. The CFC's political ecosystem is to the left of any point in the old US's history, and frankly to the left of much if not all of Europe. To the point where the old Democratic and Republican Parties collectively hold only 12% of the electorate, because the old US's big center-left coalition party is the CFC's right wing fringe party.

The CFC is barely recognizable as a US-descended polity in terms of internal politics, as opposed to geographical extent.

Aaaand during Nation Creation this, in the context of our being intensely committed to democracy, and having somewhat-right-of-actual-socialism politics, left us at Legitimacy -2, compared to Victoria at -9. The gap between the CFC and Victoria in Legtimacy was -7 points.

By contrast, just us announcing we have a piece of paper foundational to the old United States is good for a full +8 Legitimacy.

To me, that sounds like Legitimacy is far less about our policy choices, and far more about the perception of political continuity of authority, than some here believe.

And if it's about continuity of authority, and not about policy choices, then we can have high Legitimacy without having to choose to do evil things or embrace evil things from the past.

It occurs to me that people who are lukewarm about the idea of bothering to try annexing Missouri or Arkansas probably shouldn't be too broken up about our inability to annex Mexico. :p

Let me ask a question.

Through some combination of words and actions, it is imaginable that the Commonwealth could LITERALLY declare the socialist revolution, abolish private property, and proclaim economic equality for all, classless this, Marx that, et cetera.

Sara Goldblum: "The party on the left is now parting on the right, and the beards have all grown longer overnight..."

And DESPITE THIS, we could still conceivably have double-digit Legitimacy if we were playing our cards right and properly leveraged symbolic choices, including but not limited to "we've got the Declaration of Independence, everybody!"

Am I correct or incorrect?
This is a vastly more functional take than a lot of the thread is working with. Yes, Legitimacy is way more an effect than a cause.
To clarify, does this meant the end of turn 6, or start? If we don't resolve it turn 5 is that considered starvation?
End of Turn 6.
If high legitimacy means we can't have those things, then we should give the declaration to FCNY.
If you're going to hunt through the thread to pick one sentence out of context to have an issue with, you had better fucking hunt down the one-page-later comment clarifying that exact issue.
 
For my take on the matter, I refer to Captain America.
Honestly, this shit is why I love Cap. I got my two cents of issue with Murica among other things but when this guy pulls up like this I get that flame of hope for not just that maybe the best parts of the ideal of the united states can shine through the taint and muck but that the best parts of all things and all people may shine through to a better today and maybe a good tomorrow.
 
The bare fact of announcing it, trumpeting it as a PR symbol, by sheer force of timing waving in the Vicks' faces that you are glorifying the country which they were born through the act of killing...those would sabotage peace talks, because there's absolutely no way Blackwell could justify negotiating peace with the kind of person who does that.
Alright, now I'm almost tempted to go with announcing it just after the peace talks conclude and are sealed in ink, just to see the look on his face.

Almost.
 
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Legitimacy is how credible your claim of being an American successor state looks. Radical departures from old American ideals obviously tarnish your image as a successor. As a Revivalist movement rather than an established faction, you begin with -2 Legitimacy
...so is that before or after the +3 Legitimacy we got from our constitution not being a dictatorship in disguise?
 
It doesn't even have to be something as grand as a national symbol. People can have personal things that mean stuff to them.

But for me? The DoI is important, it has meaning, it represents the ideals this nation was founded upon. Ideals we so often failed, or even lived in opposition towards. Yet it is part of the foundational myth of the country and the people. It is wrong to deny its importance, or to just throw it away or hide it. We should not have to live in fear of those who would destroy it for their own cynical purposes. We should be proud of what we are trying to build, we should share it with as many people as possible, to include as many people as possible.

This is not something I can in good conscience hide away as if it were some trinket. We should shout it from the summits and the hillsides and the rooftops. The Declaration of Independence is an idea, and ideas are bullet proof.

There is a problem here. You're saying that :
A) The Declaration of Independence contained a set of ideals that are good and moral to this day.
B) That these morals were foundational to the USA, and thus part of the core of the nation.

Now, we can assume that if those ideals were there, and that they were foundational to the USA, that the revolutionaries, the guys who took a world power to fight for independence, would have actively believed in them and tried to execute them, thus leading us to point
C) Revolutionaries try to fight for ideals.

The question then is, how did we get to point
D) Slavery exists without excessive controversy for a long time.

The answer is that it can't. You can not claim that the US was founded on the "ideal of all men being born equal" while the nation clearly believed that some men were less equal than others. So, point B fails. Whatever good ideals the DOI may have had, it is clear that they were not held by the founders and people of the early US.

Edit :
To say something controversial, consider the Confederate flag and Confederate Statues.
Modern day supporters of the Confederacy argue that it's a sign of their heritage, about a rebellion for states rights and independence and freedom and stuff.
This belief is completely ahistorical, but it is how they see it.
Would you say that they're correct?
 
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Honestly at this point, my opinion on legitimacy is mostly overshadowed by the fact that I really really don't want to double down on hostile foreign attention. Announcing "we're the US 2.0" is way more aggressive than I want to be right now.

I think the "technically a secret" route wouldn't be bad. We can use it later if we need to, NYC becomes closer to us, and it doesn't meaningfully worsen the foreign situation.
 
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Ok. This is huge. And honestly, im leaning pretty heavily on one of two routes.

route 1 is keeping it secret (or maybe letting fcny know in secret) until the peace talks are finished, and then announcing it to the world and bringing fcny in to confirm authenticity.

the other option is to give it to fcny in secret, let them deal with it however they want, and enjoy the advantages of having fcny as our best friend.

right now, i am leaning to giving it to fcny in secret. I dont think we can afford the russian attention that document will bring, at least not anytime soon, and i dont want to keep it a secret for years. Better toget some major relations up with one of the most important cities in the world and not risk the paper getting stolen or destroyed by an enemy intelligence agency
 
If you wanted this sort of thing to be an option, you shouldn't have played Revivalists.
This.... sounds odd tbh, considering the fact that we were theoretically able to turn our Revivalist state into a Communist Dictatorship. Obviously a Communist Dictatorship wouldn't care at all about being seen as "the legitimate successor" to bourgeois-capitalist America, Revivalist or not.
 
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