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Uhhh... are you referring to the Pacific War of the 2040s, or to attempts by Victoria to assist Russia in putting down a New California Republic's uprising in the present day of the setting, the 2070s? Because while I imagine the interstates and railways were at least vaguely intact enough to allow cross-continental overland travel for large armies then, I'm pretty sure they aren't now.
But I am mostly discussing how it could be done now, and right now? I am pretty darn sure that even if you COULD get to California overland with a division, you sure as heck could not do that to Salt Lake City (or likely even Denver if the people there resist).
I am trying to argue that there are regions, even urban regions, where the Vics are just unable to project power, but in turn these regions are also mostly cut off from the world and the rest of America.
*points at Scandinavia in-quest*
Obviously no country is an island unto itself, but contagion can be mitigated given national commitment and a bit of luck.
And the Netherlands is one of those places with a proactive intelligence/counterintelligence effort against Russian fuckery, even in the modern day.
I think the reason for that is simply that the Russians have a history of using their own assets to transport assets to ferry Victorian soldiers to rape, loot, and pillage chunks of NCR territory. They did that exact thing during the Pacfiic War.From the Californian perspective, our victory at Detroit means about 100,000 LESS men they have to worry about being dumped into their territory as a giant barbarian invasion when they rebel against the Russians. Which in turn means tens of thousands of their own soldiers can be freed up to fight the Russians.
Dunno if they have ferried Victorian assets per se. Provided logistics support yes.
Do they face a land threat from Russia though?
Air threat out of Elmendorf AFB, and a naval threat yes. But there are no Russian staging points on the West Coast short of Alaska.
The local land threats I can see on the map are from the Japanese and Japan-controlled puppet states to their north.
Ehhh. The flip side of that is that their agricultural sector is... iffy... without extensive outside supplies of water that they'd be struggling to control and maintain.Very hard to predict California's current population.
Looking around Google suggests most of California's publicised water problems are a result of the agricultural lobby growing irrigation-dependent cash crops for export in a dry climate at subsidised water rates.
I mean, urban use accounts for only 10% of Cali's water use. Environmental uses account for 51%, and agriculture consumes 39% of Cali's water.
Of that, 18% goes to alfalfa. 34% to fruit and nuts. 11% to pasture forage. 8% goes to rice(!).
Field crops took only 14%. Truck farming of vegetables and nursery crops is 4%.
With saner water management policies, or wholesale adoption of Dutch agriculture methods, they would have no water issues.
Even without desalination. Not like Arizona.
Speaking of which, fusion-powered desalination.....
There was New York City itself. Areas south of the proto-Victorian zone of control may have been LESS safe, but they didn't contain violent alt-right militias shooting people as much- or they'd have wound up becoming part of the Northern Confederation themselves.
I'm going to be blunt here, we KNOW there were waves of refugees fleeing Northern Confederation territory during its founding. We KNOW ethnic minorities were among those refugees. At this point you're just being pointlessly stubborn. And I don't understand why you bring up California in the context of "places African-American refugees from the Northern Confederation could flee to"
New York City was 8.4 million before the Collapse.
It's 11 million now by WoG. As a destination of refugees from all across the nation, NYS would not have provided more than a tithe of that.
Yes we have refugee waves running the fuck away from Vic-controlled territory as they can.
What you have not provided is evidence for the assertion that ethnic minorities form a disproportionate portion of those refugees. As reprehensible as the Vics are, the only act of ethnic cleansing I'm aware they committed is the Puerto Rican/Hispanic purge.
A lot of the jets would probably have found foreign buyers or simply been stolen by the Russians, Japanese, or other foreign players during the late phase of the Collapse. A jumbo jet is incredibly portable wealth; you fuel it up, make sure the engines won't fall off, and you can take it anywhere in the world. Of all the things to loot, or to "buy" from starving locals in exchange for a mess of pottage, this would be one of the easiest.
I do not agree.
There was no massive deficit of international aircraft that needed filling by stealing or buying US domestic aircraft as international trade and travel collapsed. And aircraft of that size are expensive assets to run and maintain.
African nations like Nigeria, South Africa and Ethiopia don't have the transport facilities to operate those aircraft.
Or frankly the need to do so, given the shorter distances involved with those states. Or the expertise to maintain them during the early part of America's Fall. Maybe South Africa has the industry with, but not the need.
Russia would not have the facilities to easily maintain American-supplied engines in the collapse of the US, Airbus products out of France and the UK would be having supply chain issues, and it has its own aircraft companies to support.
It certainly didn't need the refined aluminium either, given it's domestic aluminium production.
Japanese domestic transport is dominated by highspeed train, not airline travel; the distances are very different. And it has sufficient international airhaul capacity between it's domestic airline industry and the jumbos it acquired from South Korea.
India wasn't rich enough to need an influx of jumbos at the start of the Collapse. By the time it can, it can afford new aircraft.
Australia was not in aircraft deficit. Indonesia isnt either.
Literally no demand for them during the Collapse, and by the time things started stabilising, the engines are too trashed from years without maintenance to safely move the plane. And the massive numbers of short and medium haul aircraft also remain from makers like Bombardier.
Which can't simply skip over the Atlantic or Pacific.
[Excerpt from "Jane's All the World's Aircraft" 2062 Edition]
F/A-16 Block V "Victory Falcon" -
"An F-16 variant ostensibly flown by the state of Victoria, the "Victory Falcon," so named for it's alleged role in 'winning' Victoria's war with the NCR, is a trimmed down and technologically simplified variant of the F-16 designed as a logistically lightweight and agile fighter. While the "Victory Falcon" is lighter weight in terms of logistics consumption than other aircraft, this comes at the cost of weapons compatibility and electronic systems. At it's heart, the base airframe is capable, but numerous cost cutting techniques and questionable upgrades render it a complicated and temperamental beast to fly according to records from the famous "defector M." Regardless, compared to the aircraft of other, quite lackluster air forces on the North American continent (barring that of the NCR), the "Victory Falcon" remains a capable craft, if only for it's lack of competition and ability to be regularly maintained and procured. Rather ironically, while the "Victory Falcon" is named in honor of Victoria's victory over the NCR, the aircraft is entirely foreign produced in California, with little to no domestic production of aircraft components occurring in Victoria itself."
"One interesting note about the "Victory Falcon" is it's highly irregular paint scheme. While early variants were sent in a 'european one'-styled temperate pattern, a visit to Victoria by Russian SU-63s of the "Volkov" squadron inspired Victorian leaders to order all further F-16s to be painted in an imitative 'anti-flash white' pattern. Since then, all "Victory Falcons" have shared the same white coloration, though the quality and flash reduction abilities of the domestically supplied paint is questionable."
TIL:
The F-16V Viper is a real F-16 variant, first introduced as part of an upgrade package at the Singapore Air Show in 2012, with its first flight in 2015.
It's the most modern F16 variant as of today
The F-16V: A 4th Generation multi-role fighter aircraft. Enhanced for international security, it remains at the forefront of modern military capabilities.
www.lockheedmartin.com
Probably well behind whatever is the current version operated by other nations post-Collapse.
Dunno if they have ferried Victorian assets per se. Provided logistics support yes.
Do they face a land threat from Russia though?
Air threat out of Elmendorf AFB, and a naval threat yes. But there are no Russian staging points on the West Coast short of Alaska.
The local land threats I can see on the map are from the Japanese and Japan-controlled puppet states to their north.
It depends. Do the Russians have any army garrisons that might hold out long enough for forces to be redeployed to reinforce them? Are there any areas of NCR territory where they're not sure they can get enough rebel forces to crush whatever the Russians have in the area? Can the Russians base out of Japanese territory when the Japanese obligingly say "OK, you can use our ports and roads to support your effort to 'restore order,' because we don't want the radical pro-independence views of the NCR becoming contagious and infecting our puppet state?"
Again, don't just look at what's there, look at what can be moved there. The Detroit campaign doesn't constitute a big enough emergency for Russia to commit ground troops. An NCR rebellion very well might.
Looking around Google suggests most of California's publicised water problems are a result of the agricultural lobby growing irrigation-dependent cash crops for export in a dry climate at subsidised water rates.
I mean, urban use accounts for only 10% of Cali's water use. Environmental uses account for 51%, and agriculture consumes 39% of Cali's water.
Of that, 18% goes to alfalfa. 34% to fruit and nuts. 11% to pasture forage. 8% goes to rice(!).
Field crops took only 14%. Truck farming of vegetables and nursery crops is 4%.
With saner water management policies, or wholesale adoption of Dutch agriculture methods, they would have no water issues.
Even without desalination. Not like Arizona.
Speaking of which, fusion-powered desalination.....
I don't think it's safe to assume that California has fusion reactors right now. Remember, deliberately being kept handicapped by Russia.
Solar, yes.
As to the water management, maybe you're right, but it's something to consider; California being a breadbasket region may or may not be stable and it's a matter that would have to be mathed out.
New York City was 8.4 million before the Collapse.
It's 11 million now by WoG. As a destination of refugees from all across the nation, NYS would not have provided more than a tithe of that.
Tell me, did it occur to you that in the intervening forty years, some of those refugees might have moved elsewhere and not all still be living in the same overcrowded city as before?
Yes we have refugee waves running the fuck away from Vic-controlled territory as they can.
What you have not provided is evidence for the assertion that ethnic minorities form a disproportionate portion of those refugees. As reprehensible as the Vics are, the only act of ethnic cleansing I'm aware they committed is the Puerto Rican/Hispanic purge.
...Do you really think I need to supply evidence that ethnic minorities would flee Victorian influence in an attempt to avoid oppression or purges?
...I mean, come on. That's just. Um.
[stares in incomprehension]
Think about that one for a minute. Please.
I do not agree.
There was no massive deficit of international aircraft that needed filling by stealing or buying US domestic aircraft as international trade and travel collapsed. And aircraft of that size are expensive assets to run and maintain.
If nothing else, you can use a fleet of a hundred Boeing 767s as spare parts hulks for each other until they wear out. Plus, of course, the production line tooling for a lot of US airliners would have been located in the Pacific, and it's entirely possible for those regions to have continued production and support of the existing jet fleet. When the various west coast remnant states were overrun, their aircraft production facilities would have been valuable industry, as demonstrated by the Californians.
I can easily imagine people buying the planes up on spec, if nothing else. I know the global economy was in free-fall, but at the same time, a lot of very valuable American assets would be available at fire-sale prices. Global capital being mobile isn't a phenomenon that goes away just because of economic collapse. I can easily see situations where the executives of a US airline sell off their jets to a foreign buyer at, again, fire-sale prices, in exchange for enough money to set themselves up comfortably in the land of anywhere except here.
This ties into my speculation that one of the big ways the Russians have undermined civilian industrial redevelopment in the US was simply to buy things, but to buy them from desperate people who couldn't operate the machinery, at very low prices in exchange for commodities like food and medicine.
The point about short-range aircraft that can't be ferried across the Atlantic is well taken, though. South American buyers are a possibility, but only a possibility.
TIL:
The F-16V Viper is a real F-16 variant, first introduced as part of an upgrade package at the Singapore Air Show in 2012, with its first flight in 2015.
It's the most modern F16 variant as of today
The F-16V: A 4th Generation multi-role fighter aircraft. Enhanced for international security, it remains at the forefront of modern military capabilities.
www.lockheedmartin.com
Probably well behind whatever is the current version operated by other nations post-Collapse.
That's not the Victorian 'Vee' version of the aircraft, though- the Victorian 'Vee' is a dumbed-down version with different (and black-boxed) avionics.
I think this is just a case where we're running out of letters of the alphabet. By 2070 or whenever, the downfall of the old US Air Force means there's not really a point in obsessively following their classification scheme.
It depends. Do the Russians have any army garrisons that might hold out long enough for forces to be redeployed to reinforce them? Are there any areas of NCR territory where they're not sure they can get enough rebel forces to crush whatever the Russians have in the area? Can the Russians base out of Japanese territory when the Japanese obligingly say "OK, you can use our ports and roads to support your effort to 'restore order,' because we don't want the radical pro-independence views of the NCR becoming contagious and infecting our puppet state?"
Again, don't just look at what's there, look at what can be moved there. The Detroit campaign doesn't constitute a big enough emergency for Russia to commit ground troops. An NCR rebellion very well might.
Yeah, power projection is a big question., given the russian angle of Proxies and the dominance of Japan in the Pacific, it will probably take time to move troops that way, assuming the Japanese play ball (or that the Russian are willing to pay the cost the Japanese would ask them) and all that add in "other geopolicial concerns" that at the moment we know exactly Jack squat.
honestly? we really need to get our diplo and intel arms going. we need to fill those blanks or else any plan we make are going to be russian roulettinsh in nature
TIL:
The F-16V Viper is a real F-16 variant, first introduced as part of an upgrade package at the Singapore Air Show in 2012, with its first flight in 2015.
It's the most modern F16 variant as of today
The F-16V: A 4th Generation multi-role fighter aircraft. Enhanced for international security, it remains at the forefront of modern military capabilities.
www.lockheedmartin.com
Probably well behind whatever is the current version operated by other nations post-Collapse.
It's sort-of predecessor, the F-16 Block 60, was featured in Ace Combat 5. Decent little bird for air-to-air missions, though you're probably better off using the Tomcat in such a case
It's sort-of predecessor, the F-16 Block 60, was featured in Ace Combat 5. Decent little bird for air-to-air missions, though you're probably better off using the Tomcat in such a case
*points at Scandinavia in-quest*
Obviously no country is an island unto itself, but contagion can be mitigated given national commitment and a bit of luck.
And the Netherlands is one of those places with a proactive intelligence/counterintelligence effort against Russian fuckery, even in the modern day.
Greenland: In the Collapse, they formally separated from Denmark, albeit on amicable terms. Their economy largely vanished during the Collapse, save for the fishing industry, which at least ensured they did not starve. Today they are rather isolationist.
And considering that Denmark is out of the picture, Greenland is quite rich in natural resources, many opened up by climate change and thus with the collapse are likely mostly untapped. In the long-term, we may want to try to convince them to join the Commonwealth. Obvious right now isn't the time due to our own limitations and the logistics involved but if we can assimilate more of Canada and develop our economy more then I think they could be a real gem to our nation.
And considering that Denmark is out of the picture, Greenland is quite rich in natural resources, many opened up by climate change and thus with the collapse are likely mostly untapped. In the long-term, we may want to try to convince them to join the Commonwealth. Obvious right now isn't the time due to our own limitations and the logistics involved but if we can assimilate more of Canada and develop our economy more then I think they could be a real gem to our nation.
It would be a long ways off, probably by the time we're on a good enough standing to wheel and deal with the various nations and such, but it does sound like a good idea.
Granted they are isolationist, and due to distance and connectivity, we probably wouldn't be able to even start making big-time deals with them until we either control a large portion of Canada or outright annex Victoria, or at least the Canadian part of it.
But if done, then it could certainly help us in many ways, both economically and internationally, especially when countering Russian interests in the Arctic and North Atlantic.
However, if in the (unfortunately likely) event that they don't decide to join the Commonwealth and manage to shed some of their isolationalism, I can imagine them joining an alliance or pact with us, like a newer and larger NAFTA or a version of NATO.
To summarize: Alexander was convinced to swing hard into environmental solutions, largely, as ever, for self-serving reasons. India, his ally, came aboard. China was already on that path for unrelated reasons. Europe came aboard quite resentfully, but it's on. North America is out of the picture. The oil trade died in the Collapse and never really recovered anyway. Momentum took care of the rest from there. Russia, as a side effect of the colossal spending this took, is now in a moment of weakness — a good part of the reason why they lapsed in their global campaign of punching down.
Things have not deteriorated much since the modern day, but the crisis point is only a few years away. If current trends continue, the people of Earth will avert the big shift...but it is entirely possible for things to still go wrong. It all depends on if the current trends do continue.
I'm wondering @PoptartProdigy, is much more of Russia arable (due to permafrost land melting) as a result of the current environmental damage or has the environment not changed sufficiently for relevant change?
Poptart has declared on a few occasions that they are very specifically and deliberately avoiding the question of climate change entirely by saying "climate is basically the same as in the present day, due to heroic efforts spanning much of the 21st century." This may or may not be maximally scientifically accurate, but it is an entirely reasonable way to avoid the complicated question of how climate change will affect hundreds of nations around the world for purposes of keeping the quest backstory manageable.
I've also been thinking, what is something that Russia knows how to make, they are willing to use and after the Collapse is unlikely to have any treaty obligations that they feel pressured to comply with reducing the development, manufacture and use of. A WMD that could really tip the scales in Victoria's favour without being so far-reaching that they could potentially lose control of Victoria.
Chemical Warfare.
We should consider preparing our cities and soldiers for chemical attacks because developing country dictators have used them before, hell it's very likely that the Syrian government has used them in their current civil war - and even if they were unable to develop them alone then they, like Victoria had Russia's patronage.
@PoptartProdigy has Russia post-Collapse had a history of using chemical weapons to assassinate targets and/or used them on the battlefield?
The Victorians can almost certainly make chlorine gas, lewisite, and mustard gas themselves. Though lewisite might be most interesting for them since it has an antidote (Dimercaprol) that would be easy for the Victorians to carry around, but which might be hard to resource for Commonwealth soldiers and civillians. Said anti-dote does not prevent injury, but might prevent death.
Also if they get air-supremacy back they can deploy gas from the sort of cropdusters that they can build themselves. Sure said airplanes might take a lot of losses, but are cheap to build.
F15E Strike Eagle
31.1 million in 1998 dollars Mission
The F-15E Strike Eagle is a dual-role fighter designed to perform air-to-air and air-to-ground missions. An array of avionics and electronics systems gives the F-15E the capability to fight at low altitude, day or night and in all weather.
Twin seat.Twin engine fighter. Shares same engines as F-16.
17.5 tons gross weight. 36.45 ton maximum takeoff weight
Maximum weapon payload 10.4 tons/23,000 pounds
Speed Mach 2.5+. 60,000 ft flight ceiling.
3,840km range with conformal fuel tanks and three external fuel tanks.
Can carry any USAF air to air or air to surface weapon, nuclear or conventional. As well as the only tested antisatellite fighter weapon.
Eagle operators include Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Israel, Japan and Singapore and Qatar.
460 built of -E variants. 1,500+ of all Eagle variants built as of 2018.
***************************************************************************** F16C/D Falcon
18.8 million in 1998 dollars Mission
The F-16 Fighting Falcon is a compact, multi-role fighter aircraft. It is highly maneuverable and has proven itself in air-to-air combat and air-to-surface attack. It provides a relatively low-cost, high-performance weapon system for the United States and allied nations.
Single engine fighter. Single or twin seat versions.
8.9 tons weight.Maximum takeoff weight 16.8 tons/37500 pounds
Maximum payload 7.7 tons
Maximum speed Mach 2
Fight ceiling 50,000 ft+
4,600+ built as of June 2018.
Operated by 25 countries.
Bahrain
Belgium
Chile
Denmark
Egypt
Greece
Israel
Indonesia
Iraq
Jordan
Morocco
Netherlands
Norway
Oman
Pakistan
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Singapore
South Korea
Thailand
Turkey
Taiwan (Republic of China)
United Arab Emirates
United States
Venezuela
*************************************************************
F-16XL
Strike fighter variant of F16. Never went into full production IRL.
Single or twin crew.
9.98 tons weight. 21.8 tons maximum takeoff weight.
Mach 2. Supercruise capable.
2 prototypes built. Currently stored at Edwards AFB in California.
140%+ the range, and 182% the fuel capacity of a standard F16 on internal fuel.
The USAF chose the F15E over this version of the F16.
*************************************************************
The F22A is 143 million a bird.
*************************************************************
F-4E Phantom II
2.4 million in 1965 dollars; 19.1 million dollars currently.
Twin crew.
13.7 tons empty weight.28 tons maximum takeoff weight.
Payload 8.48 tons, including a range of air to air and air to ground weapons. Including nukes.
Mach 2.23 speed. Flight ceiling 60,000 feet.
Germany(263), Greece(121), Spain(58) and the UK(181) all operated Phantom IIs.
So did Iran(225), Israel(286) and South Korea(222), Egypt(42),Turkey(233) and Japan(140).
5,195 aircraft of all variants built, 1958-1981.
I draw especial attention to the F4X recon variant, which cruised at Mach 2.4 and was capable of hitting Mach 3.2 in a sprint.
Was in development for the Israelis before the USAF killed it
************************************************************** ***************************************************************
TRANSPORT
C-47 Skytrain (DC3 variant)
79,500 dollars in the 30s, equivalent to 1.45 million in 2018
4 crew.
Twin piston engines. 8.2 tons empty weight. Max takeoff weight 11.7 tons.
28 troops or around 3 tons of payload
Max speed 360kmph.
Range 2500km
10,000+ built
************************************************************************
C-54 Skymaster(DC-4 variant)
Introduced 1942. 1170+ built
4 crew. 4x piston-engine power plants
Max payload 50 troops or 14.7 tons cargo.
Max speed 443kmhr. Cruise speed 306kmhr
Max range 6400km with 1.8 ton cargo
Flight ceiling 22300 feet.
*********************************************
Beechcraft King Air
Introduced 1964. 3100+ built
Crew 2, passengers 7-13.
Range 2400km.
Cruising speed 400km per hour.
*********************************************
C-124 Globemaster II
Introduced 1950. 448 built.
5 crew. 4 piston engines.
Capacity 200 troops/123 litter patients with 45 ambulatory patients and 15 medical staff OR 74,000 lb (34,000 kg)
Maximum speed 489kmhr. Cruise speed 370 kmhr.
Max range 6486km with 1.8tons.
Flight ceiling 21800 feet.
*********************************************
C-130 Hercules
Introduced 1956. 2500+ as of 2015.
STRAIGHTLINE DISTANCE
For reference:
Chicago to New York City: 1147km
Chicago to Miami: 1914 km
Chicago to San Francisco: 2984km
Chicago to Beale AFB, California: 2850 km
Chicago to Baton Rouge, Louisiana: 1306km
New York City to Miami: 1760km
New York City to San Francisco: 4,131 km
New York City to Lajes AFB, Azores Islands, Portugal : 4136km
New York City to Baton Rouge, Louisiana: 1922 km
All locations either have significant airports or airforce bases, as well as critical geopolitical importance to us.
For reference this is about the performance range of the "Garbage Bird" diesel-powered transport plane, though I figure they had to make it overall bigger and/or accept less payload because diesel engines are inherently rather heavy.
I've also been thinking, what is something that Russia knows how to make, they are willing to use and after the Collapse is unlikely to have any treaty obligations that they feel pressured to comply with reducing the development, manufacture and use of. A WMD that could really tip the scales in Victoria's favour without being so far-reaching that they could potentially lose control of Victoria.
Chemical Warfare.
We should consider preparing our cities and soldiers for chemical attacks because developing country dictators have used them before, hell it's very likely that the Syrian government has used them in their current civil war - and even if they were unable to develop them alone then they, like Victoria had Russia's patronage.
@PoptartProdigy has Russia post-Collapse had a history of using chemical weapons to assassinate targets and/or used them on the battlefield?
Hm. On the one hand, Alex would not care about moral considerations against. On the other, he cares a great deal for effectiveness, and I have heard conflicting reports on whether gas attacks are actually effective relative to conventional munitions.
Hm. On the one hand, Alex would not care about moral considerations against. On the other, he cares a great deal for effectiveness, and I have heard conflicting reports on whether gas attacks are actually effective relative to conventional munitions.
My (very amateur and limited understanding) is that chemical weapons are highly ineffective against a prepared modern force that has suitably equipment. Not just a modern one, any well-equipped semi-modern force will do.
The question is how easily the Commonwealth could acquire the appropriate countermeasures for its armed forces.
Moral considerations need not be limited to personal morality. It's also PR. Alex portrays himself as an enlightened despot, so for that reason he may not want to resort to undeniable war crimes.
As for the effectiveness of gas weaponry, modern gas weaponry is very effective against infantry and if you do not care about collateral damage. Modern gas weaponry can kill on skin contact alone, so everyone not in NBC equipment or equipped with antidotes is screwed.
Hm. On the one hand, Alex would not care about moral considerations against. On the other, he cares a great deal for effectiveness, and I have heard conflicting reports on whether gas attacks are actually effective relative to conventional munitions.
This is when the attackers have done everything in their plan perfectly, in an enclosed area. 13 dead, 50 injured and 1000 with temporary vision problems.
I don't believe anyone who cares for maximum effectiveness will waste money on something that had already been proven to be better for messing with people's minds rather than killing everyone you wanted dead.
Moral considerations need not be limited to personal morality. It's also PR. Alex portrays himself as an enlightened despot, so for that reason he may not want to resort to undeniable war crimes.
As for the effectiveness of gas weaponry, modern gas weaponry is very effective against infantry and if you do not care about collateral damage. Modern gas weaponry can kill on skin contact alone, so everyone not in NBC equipment or equipped with antidotes is screwed.
en.wikipedia.org
www.lockheedmartin.com
