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On another note. @PoptartProdigy if we use OWE, and hold BRO in reserve and there are no armored crossings, so our Abrams never enter combat does that use up the charge?
Given the extremely optimistic assumption that one infantry division can hold back five infantry divisions, a tank division, and a mechanized infantry division with amphibious capabilities without any assistance from reaction forces, river or no, then yes. You would not use a charge.
 
Given the extremely optimistic assumption that one infantry division can hold back five infantry divisions, a tank division, and a mechanized infantry division with amphibious capabilities without any assistance from reaction forces, river or no, then yes. You would not use a charge.

To clarify that was, "we blow bridge early, Victoria decides to cross elsewhere" hypothetical. not a "our troops become godlike".
 
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Our goal is to bleed the enemy and to delay them. I think the BRO should be held in reserve and allowed use of OWE. We should destroy the bridge to delay the enemy as allowing them to potentially capture the bridge intact would be disastrous. The Victorians are dogmatic but not stupid. They will likely see through an obvious trap or bait. Delaying the enemy and making them waste their time and supplies is currently more important than killing them at this point. I think we should deploy the navy to further bleed the enemy and divide the attention of the enemy air force between our gunboats and tanks despite the risk.

We should not dismiss the threat of the CMC and the tank division. While they are probably not as dangerous as their propaganda claims, they are still better trained and equipped than our regular forces and the Devil's Brigade is only so large. It is unlikely the mines destroyed enough vehicles to seriously weaken their crossing abilities. I expect they will be able to smash through our regular forces if we do not use the BRO to reinforce them.
 
Regarding the POWs, we should denazify them, drill comrade Mao's Little Red Book into their heads and then give them a gun and unleash them on the Victorian countryside.
 
They were escorted by their own fighters, and at the time the US had no prepared plans against this sort of attack, they did have standard AA, but nothing for this. Despite all these advantages, the 27% hit ratio is the best they could achieve. So yes, the 5% ratio of the later attacks is likely optimistic, but the 27% one is massively pessimistic*.
I don't think it is.
From what I understsnd, just one of those escort carriers at Leyte Gulf had more AA than our entire gunboat force. When you add intangibles like the experience and training of the US side, and the maneuverability and speed of some of the targeted ships.....

There are no hard figures though. So we'll just have to disagree.
Either way, I'm not comfortable with saying it's too dangerous for them to bombard near our AA screen, but isn't too dangerous for them to get next to a static sunken vessel and board it. Only the withdrawl to Detroit option gives us safety.
*With the caveat that perhaps the supersonic changes that calculation.
I'd be fine with them returning to Detroit, or at least to the Hudson line.

Why I am willing to risk them at the beached ship, besides the major equipment windfall, whivh I really want as a strategic windfall?
Is that there is no one to radio the VAF about their location there. The laker's been beached for a week, so any radios will be dead along with the ship's electrical systems. We've cleared the East AO, so it's now firmly behind our lines.

And since we've been shooting down their Cessnas, they're blind to shit behind our lines.

The Monroe line OTOH has several hundred radios in the hands of the CMC and tank division.
In addition to the radios available to battalion commanders at a minimum.
If our gunboat coal smoke shows up on the horizon, the VAF will know five minutes later,and the weather has been clearing.

I'd rather they suffer some more attrition before the next time they meet the navy.
Given the extremely optimistic assumption that one infantry division can hold back five infantry divisions, a tank division, and a mechanized infantry division with amphibious capabilities without any assistance from reaction forces, river or no, then yes. You would not use a charge.
15,000 vs 70,000.
Unfortunately, the Commonwealth 15000 are Quality 1/5. The Vic 70,000 are Quality 2/5.
Hence the need to be backstopped by another 15,000 man division.
 
Why I am willing to risk them at the beached ship, besides the major equipment windfall, whivh I really want as a strategic windfall?
Is that there is no one to radio the VAF about their location there. The laker's been beached for a week, so any radios will be dead along with the ship's electrical systems. We've cleared the East AO, so it's now firmly behind our lines.

And since we've been shooting down their Cessnas, they're blind to shit behind our lines.

The Monroe line OTOH has several hundred radios in the hands of the CMC and tank division.
In addition to the radios available to battalion commanders at a minimum.
If our gunboat coal smoke shows up on the horizon, the VAF will know five minutes later,and the weather has been clearing.

I'd rather they suffer some more attrition before the next time they meet the navy.

They have radar, and they are almost certainty looking for our boats. The idea that they are blind is optimistic at best.
 
Just regarding the potential danger to our navy, going by the modifiers from the attack after the Buffalo raid, I doubt that the Viks would be any better than even - they won't have the "giant search area" modifier, but munitions will likely be worse, and we'll have a little better AA coverage... so the ringer is potential kamikaze tactics.

And, as far as effectiveness, this ended up being a 2-point edge for us, which resulted in Victoria losing 5 planes, and us having repairable damage to 4 ships, as well as some casualties. So, if we roll poorly, and Victoria does well, and they go all-in, we probably could lose a fair bit. But that seems somewhat unlikely, to me.
Victorian Modifiers:

Clear seas: 3 points.
Limited training: -1 point.
Limited munitions: -1 point.
Hours of repairs means a big fucking search area: -2 points.
Sister Cali fucked these guys up: -3 points.

Total Modifier: -4 points.

Commonwealth Modifiers:

Limited AA platforms: 1 point.
Dodging F-16s with air-to-surface missiles in steam ships: -3 points.

Total Modifier: -2 points.
 
Rockwood is roughly where the Hudson meets the Lake.
Monroe to Rockwood is roughly 15 miles. 24 km. About a day, a day and half on foot.
Longer if you're looking for traps and trying to stay together. And 105mm arty can start hitting you from about the halfway mark.

Now they could try taking the I-275 west in order to attempt to loop around our defensive roadblock, but that brings them up to Detroit International and burns up yet more supplies in the process, while taking them away fom water.
And they still have to face the bottleneck of I-94.

Only now there's space for a mobile enemy force to maneuver into their rear.
They have radar, and they are almost certainty looking for our boats. The idea that they are blind is optimistic at best.
They only have aircraft radar and can't keep aircraft in the air 24/7.
The only place they might have a surface radar installation on the Lakes is in Buffalo, several hundred km away.
Meantime we do have air search and surface search radar.

And remember, the Earth is curved.
Radar doesn't follow the earth's curvature, which is why they put the emitter on a high mast to look down. Surface search radar range tops out in the high double digit nautical miles, anything from around 20-75 nautical miles.

You want range when looking at the planetary surface, you need aircraft. Or satellites.
 
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I don't think the Vics air force will press the attack if they see our ships aren't targeting their ground forces. If they are down to that few airframes then they will want to preserve them unless absolutely necessary.
 
Just regarding the potential danger to our navy, going by the modifiers from the attack after the Buffalo raid, I doubt that the Viks would be any better than even - they won't have the "giant search area" modifier, but munitions will likely be worse, and we'll have a little better AA coverage... so the ringer is potential kamikaze tactics.

And, as far as effectiveness, this ended up being a 2-point edge for us, which resulted in Victoria losing 5 planes, and us having repairable damage to 4 ships, as well as some casualties. So, if we roll poorly, and Victoria does well, and they go all-in, we probably could lose a fair bit. But that seems somewhat unlikely, to me.
Weren't considering kamikaze attacks at the time.
When a 12-ton hunk of steel, composites and jet fuel is considering making supersonic penetration of your wooden vessel, it changes the considerations somewhat.
I don't think the Vics air force will press the attack if they see our ships aren't targeting their ground forces. If they are down to that few airframes then they will want to preserve them unless absolutely necessary.
Also this.
They'd be attempting to provide CAS and recon support to their ground troops, not chasing noncombatants.
 
They only have aircraft radar and can't keep aircraft in the air 24/7.
The only place they might have a surface radar installation on the Lakes is in Buffalo, several hundred km away.
Meantime we do have air search and surface search radar.

And remember, the Earth is curved.
Radar doesn't follow the earth's curvature, which is why they put the emitter on a high mast to look down. Surface search radar range tops out in the high double digit nautical miles, anything from around 20-75 nautical miles.

You want range when looking at the planetary surface, you need aircraft. Or satellites.

Wee know they have marine radar, they've used it back in Buffalo. Tthey don't need a dedicated rebuilt radar station for marine radar. They can transport their own. They go for 5k and require some height, not a dedicated building. Sure maybe Victoria can't make them themselves, but they can bully California, or order them from anyone else. The one I just listed goes for 36 nautical miles.

Meanwhile we know they hold the Lake Erie islands, and Pelee island is close to Lemington.


Is 32.1 km, it's much less than the radar's maximum range, and they would be silly not to stick on at every island they held, especially after we did the surprise raid.
 
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@PoptartProdigy :
-[ ] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.

Interesting that the option specifically references having the vessels' marine complement doing the boarding and clearing of the grounded laker. Because other than one or two warships for providing overwatch and fire support, is this something that we would realistically need to dedicate the entire fleet to?

It also references civilian vessels from Detroit working to remove any cargo. Is there any reason why we can't put most of the fleet's marine complement on one of those ships, and utilize them without having to remove the majority of vessels from supporting the southern AO?
 
Worth considering: the Navy option to stick around suggests they'd only be able to cover Monroe and its immediate surroundings, rather than other points on the Raisin Line, so if we're going to blow the bridge early (thereby removing the main incentive to cross through Monroe) the Victorians can just go cross elsewhere and not have to deal with bombardment. We should probably either wait to blow the bridge or send the Navy away.
 
@PoptartProdigy :


Interesting that the option specifically references having the vessels' marine complement doing the boarding and clearing of the grounded laker. Because other than one or two warships for providing overwatch and fire support, is this something that we would realistically need to dedicate the entire fleet to?

It also references civilian vessels from Detroit working to remove any cargo. Is there any reason why we can't put most of the fleet's marine complement on one of those ships, and utilize them without having to remove the majority of vessels from supporting the southern AO?
You can write that in. You will be without naval bombardment for the initial stages of the assault.
 
I think we want to keep the Big Red One in reserve- but I think we can save and OWE right now. T-34s in limited numbers or thin hulled BTRs trying to ford a river under fire are going to get pasted by the BRE OWE or no. And time nor shock value is an immediate concern.
I think you underestimate how effective armored units can be in the hands of crews that know how to operate them, even if they're being used suboptimally or hamhandedly.

And in particular, the CMC's BTRs have a lot of firepower, and they can use fire from their tanks to suppress positions on the north bank of the river while their amphibious IFVs cross. It's a bit conventional by Victorian standards, but I strongly suspect the CMC has real training in mechanized operations and doesn't just fuck around doing stupid shit John Rumford made up while sitting in an armchair somewhere.

Then send the navy to go loot the ship.
No need to risk them against the VAF and it allows us to save them for the Hudson Line. Give the Vic Infantry no warning about what a battalion-equivalent of 105mm can do to Infantry.
We're already going to be calling down divisional fire missions of 18 or so artillery pieces of equal or larger caliber, so I'm opposed. At this point it sounds like the Victorian air force is down to strafing runs and most of their remaining aircraft are unflyable due to sabotage. We can afford to take our chances; remember the outcome of the Victorian air pursuit after the Buffalo Raid.

This force is still large and quite powerful. We aren't yet in a place to get complacent.

Also, it's the Huron Line. If we're ever talking about holding the line of the Hudson River against the Victorians, we're doing very very well indeed. :p

If they can.

Civilian ships do not come equipped with scuttling charges and Vic Infantry are not combat engineers or demolition experts. Odds are you get yourself killed and leave some scorch marks on the walls. Assuming your fellows don't frag you.

All those specialist REMFs that the Vics scoff at? There's a reason for them.
Those ships are carrying, among other things, ammunition. Including ammunition for heavy weapons. It doesn't take a lot of specialist skill to find a heavy mortar bomb, in the middle of hundreds of other mortar bombs, and slam it on the nose with a big wrench so that the impact fuze detonates and causes a very very large explosion.

As for the Navy, I would like to keep them close to continue bombarding the Vics, but we've already seen Vic pilots are willing to make kamikaze strikes and a stationary target is easier to hit.
Remind me again when we saw that?

We have four functioning planes. The Victorians have MANPADs...
Remind me again when we got confirmation of them having man portable SAMs?
 
The Vicks have such a massive light infantry fetish that I'm sure they lionize the idea of the lone Stinger user or somesuch taking down the effete fighter pilot.
If I remember correctly, there was exactly one instance of this in the original book, explicitly the result of the pilot getting cocky and flying lower than he should have, which wound up getting blown way the fuck out of proportion by Vick propaganda. Like, successful British evacuation from Dunkirk levels of "fuck yeah, we did that".
 
We don't have any afaik.
I mean, we might.

I'm sure the Commonwealth Air Force still has a handful of transport aircraft and for general utility (such as ferrying VIPs around). And maybe a few propeller planes that were still in use as trainers even during this campaign. That would be normal and realistic.

But they wouldn't do us any good here, and the Victorians could probably shoot them down.

If we had a single very specific high value target, I MIGHT say "go ahead, do a single bombing attack with our two F-16s and lone F-105 flying high speed at low altitude and hoping to get out before the Victorians can scramble jets to intercept them." With so few planes left, the odds that they have a large fraction of their force on standby ready to attack an air raid, when we've just been fighting hard for about two weeks without launching any planes, seems fairly slim.

But I don't think that's really relevant.

With 20 planes, the VAF have enough potential kamikazes for every naval ship and still have 9 planes.
So let the VAF fly more sorties at Monroe and have NCR sabotage wreck their planes more.
OWE for the BRO will include antiair weapons.
As noted, kamikazes don't have a 100% success rate. Our gunboats have nontrivial air defense capability to shoot back at, or shoot down, incoming planes. I wouldn't bet on them to handle a strike by 50 or 100 planes firing antitank or antiship missiles, obviously, but twenty planes that have to come in for gun runs or kamikaze runs are a different story.

We may lose gunboats, but if in the process the Victorians lose the last of their air force, that's not necessarily a disaster. In the long run... well, as I've been saying, if they really are content to exchange supersonic jets for coal-fired river gunboats, that trade will probably favor us in the long run. We've been lucky enough so far to avoid any gunboat losses and I'm happy with that, but I agreed to the Buffalo Raid fully expecting to lose a few ships, so as far as I'm concerned we're ahead of the game in terms of naval losses.

Just curious did the NCR only sabotage the missile shipments or are the jets themselves broken in a dozen ways?
They broke everything they deniably could.
From the sound of it, the NCR has probably most significantly sabotaged the engines to wear out quickly. This would be fairly deniable (worst case you admit 'oops our quality control slipped'), and there are a lot of ways in which to do so. It's rather easier to sabotage engines to wear out quickly than it is to, say, sabotage the airframe to just randomly fall apart in midair. Because the sabotaged engines can just be less carefully made. A tremendous amount of very precise, delicately balanced work goes into making a jet engine that can run for hundreds or thousands of hours, so it doesn't take much "oops" to make the engine only run for, say, tens of hours.

This would result in occasional crashes of F-16s whose engines fail in midflight; it's a single-engine plane. If the engine tears itself apart or terminally overheats, suddenly you're in control of a rather unstable and poorly optimized glider that only might make it back to friendly-held territory.

But much more often, you'd get a plane that starts making very frightening noises or something and the mechanics back at base look at it and go "fuuuuu-." And it's downchecked for maintenance.

Anti-air is what the Victorian Air Force trains for. They have radar, and we have 2 jets which are on the same performance level to their 20. (Our other 2 functional jets are older and have worse performance.) Putting any of our planes in the air outside of Detroit airspace would be asking for them to be shot down.
I mean, if they're sabotaged that hard I wouldn't put it out of the question for our three jets (the F-105 can carry air to air missiles and isn't hopelessly behind an F-16V in my opinion)...

Well. If the Victorians actually did get all twenty planes into the air, what I'd expect to happen is for our jets to reap an alarming toll on the Victorians with missiles, then be mobbed and dogfought to death by the Viks when they closed to gun range.

And since our entire Air Force already had its glorious last stand, well, I don't think we need to have yet another one for the survivors.

As for plans, I'd be kinda inclined to wait to blow the bridge until the Viks arrive, to mess with their plans just that little bit more.
At this point, their plans start getting really fucky as soon as the bridge blows anyway.

[Note that Victorians know about pontoon bridges, and in the novel they're described as using them as an alternative to regular bridges destroyed by airstrikes. However, that was back in the early days of the wars, when the Victorians probably had access to more men trained as engineers in the old Army. Those men are now decrepit oldsters and their expertise has likely NOT been fully transferred to their successors.]

Our fixed AA umbrella is back in Detroit.
The mobile one with the troops is already thinly spread; having to spread it to cover the navy too would further dilute it.
Our ground troops have benefited from the "Limited AA" bonus against the Victorians when they attempt airstrikes. In this very update our air defenses are described as shooting down Victorian jets. Moreover, the gunboats themselves have air defense capability. The last time the Victorians successfully launched a large airstrike against us (after Buffalo), we shot down five of their jets in exchange for damage to four of our gunboats.

It is vanishingly unlikely that we would lose all our gunboats to a kamikaze attack by twenty planes. I don't think we'd even lose most, realistically. A lot of the kamikazes would screw up and miss, or get shot down short of the target.

It's...big. Really big. Nearly 80,000 long tons of cargo capacity big.
WOW. That is some Old World sized freighter. Like, that is literally the maximum size physically used on the Lakes in the present day.

In fact, that is almost certainly specifically one of these ships.

Honestly I wouldn't blame the Victorians for having written that ship off as, perversely, expendable. She's probably too big to pass through the Welland Canal and go down into Lake Ontario. Which means Buffalo is her only viable home port, and if the Commonwealth wins this war and closes Detroit to Victorian lake traffic, she's almost certainly going to be uneconomical to operate.
 
Wee know they have marine radar, they've used it back in Buffalo. Tthey don't need a dedicated rebuilt radar station for marine radar. They can transport their own. They go for 5k and require some height, not a dedicated building. Sure maybe Victoria can't make them themselves, but they can bully California, or order them from anyone else. The one I just listed goes for 36 nautical miles.

Meanwhile we know they hold the Lake Erie islands, and Pelee island is close to Lemington.


Is 32.1 km, it's much less than the radar's maximum range, and they would be silly not to stick on at every island they held, especially after we did the surprise raid.
We didn't see any use of radar in Buffalo. If there was, we wouldn't have gotten the element of surprise.

Not saying it doesn't exist; they may not have been paying attention.
But if bogstandard merchantmen were enough to hide the Commonwealth navy from detection, the return from a laker with 80,000 tons cargo capacity will put every ship on it's farside in it's sensor shadow.

-The Des Plaines class is made of wood.
They're actually relatively stealthy to radar. A happy accident.:p

-Never seen a radar set that small before.
Regardless, it's resolution seems pretty poor at the sort of ranges involved. It requires AIS , the radio beacon system, to keep track of the larger numbers it claims.

Not to mention that if there is such a thing being employed, the cheap counter for the navy would have been to scatter lake buoys with radar reflectors in Detroit waters and the nearby shoreline.
With fishing boats making regular trips with more radar reflectors strapped on to confuse the issue further.


Completely forgot there's a Vic infantry division trapped on some islands in the middle of the lake, btw.
Of all the boneheaded decisions...How do they get off while our navy has superiority?
Do we just shell them with impunity everytime the navy has spare ammunition?

■■■■■
I think you underestimate how effective armored units can be in the hands of crews that know how to operate them, even if they're being used suboptimally or hamhandedly.

And in particular, the CMC's BTRs have a lot of firepower, and they can use fire from their tanks to suppress positions on the north bank of the river while their amphibious IFVs cross. It's a bit conventional by Victorian standards, but I strongly suspect the CMC has real training in mechanized operations and doesn't just fuck around doing stupid shit John Rumford made up while sitting in an armchair somewhere.

We're already going to be calling down divisional fire missions of 18 or so artillery pieces of equal or larger caliber, so I'm opposed. At this point it sounds like the Victorian air force is down to strafing runs and most of their remaining aircraft are unflyable due to sabotage. We can afford to take our chances; remember the outcome of the Victorian air pursuit after the Buffalo Raid.

This force is still large and quite powerful. We aren't yet in a place to get complacent.

Also, it's the Huron Line. If we're ever talking about holding the line of the Hudson River against the Victorians, we're doing very very well indeed. :p

Those ships are carrying, among other things, ammunition. Including ammunition for heavy weapons. It doesn't take a lot of specialist skill to find a heavy mortar bomb, in the middle of hundreds of other mortar bombs, and slam it on the nose with a big wrench so that the impact fuze detonates and causes a very very large explosion.

Remind me again when we saw that?

Remind me again when we got confirmation of them having man portable SAMs?
-Yeah, people underestimate the BTR series. And they have BMP1s as well.

-If we have that much arty on call there, two division's worth? We shouldn't actually need the navy.
Not yet, not here. We don't want to scare them off.
We want them to cross the Raisin.

And the navy's mobility will be very useful for completely eliminating them when they break.
Since it's our fastest artillery formation.

-Huron. Derp.

- Blowing up 80,000 tons of cargo plus ship with an improvised mortar round is one hell of an ask. Even with a military cargo.
The more so when you are asking bogstandard light infantry with no demolition skills to do it.
Most likely result is suicide. And failure

-Fatal Cheetah canon omake
To make matters worse, the rest of Victoria's air defenses are reliant on a combination of SA-18 Igla MANPADS systems, anti-aircraft guns either fixed in place or mounted on trucks, and a few batteries of S-125 Neva SAMs. Yet this force is still the most capable on the continent aside from California.
One of the reasons why sneaking in our surviving aircraft for a quick airstrike would be suicide.
 
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So about that cargo ship.

My concern is that with the weather clearing up, and if our navy's otherwise occupied, the Vics are going to have a chance to send out boats to retrieve what soldiers and ammo they can and sink the rest. If we wanna grab shiny, this turn might be our only shot.
 
So about that cargo ship.

My concern is that with the weather clearing up, and if our navy's otherwise occupied, the Vics are going to have a chance to send out boats to retrieve what soldiers and ammo they can and sink the rest. If we wanna grab shiny, this turn might be our only shot.
It's behind our lines. They can't retrieve it without getting ganked.
I'm worried about the weather sinking it. Or someone attempting to talk the crew through destroying it. The Vics may not have the ecpertise normally, but everyone gets lucky.

80,000 tons of miltary supplies is enough raw materiel to raise and equip at least 5 new divisions ftom scratch.
We really want this.
 
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