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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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Angelform said:
To restate my position: I believe that working with the NCR, in any capacity, is unwise. Sabotaging stuff they are sending is no extra work to them and acknowledging them is no extra work for us. However neither of us is in any position to provide meaningful material aid to the other. Us because we flat out don't have the capability. Them because it will be obvious they are doing so. Which means when Russia comes it will squash us both.
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Presumably the NCR expects that in three years' time, they'll be able to revolt against Russian rule without getting squashed. Since they know a lot more about their own military readiness, and have a lot more contact with the Russians than we do, I'm inclined to trust their assessment.

If the NCR thinks they'll need more time, I'm happy to extend the timetable.

That said, even forming an agreement is a form of "working with," because it includes us planning and conspiring together, and making agreements about the future.

So if I understand you rightly, what you want is to minimize risk of exposure, not to minimize contact with the NCR as such. Right?
 
I told you Victorian attention from the onset was a bad idea, But everyone called me paranoid. Now people are scared at the possibility of Russia getting involved too, which was bound to happen. I'm not happy to be right though. We could've had a while to build up before we got involved in shit.
 
[X] Bargain on the deal. The Commonwealth of Free Cities will recognize the NCR when they declare independence 3 years down the line and provide military aid should the situation go hot. In exchange, the NCR will covertly supply anti-air equipment in addition to sabotaging their weapons shipments to Victoria. More risk for the NCR and more commitment on your end, but you gain a reliable supply of anti-air weapons and support equipment to help in exploiting the NCR's sabotage.

[x] 2-point option: Anti air equipment.
 
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Antix_Shadows said:
I told you Victorian attention from the onset was a bad idea, But everyone called me paranoid. Now people are scared at the possibility of Russia getting involved too, which was bound to happen. I'm not happy to be right though. We could've had a while to build up before we got involved in shit.
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Will you please stop doing this?

Seriously. It's annoying, it's insulting. You're persistently mischaracterizing large groups of people's opinions ("everyone called me paranoid," "now people are scared" as if they wouldn't be scared anyway).

And this isn't the first time, nor yet the second, and it's getting old.

I did NOT join this quest so I could listen to someone re-litigate one of the initial character generation votes over and over while keeping up this pretense that everything would be sunshine and rainbows if only we'd done what they wanted. I mean hell, I voted for what you wanted and dear GOD you are making me regret that decision.

...

In all seriousness, the NCR would still be planning their revolt regardless of whether we chose Johnson or Burns. And because they're not complete idiots, they'd be reaching out to us and trying to see about forming an alliance anyway. What would you have told them? "Sorry, we're in the middle of a 5-10 year buildup and we'll call you later if you're still alive?"
 
On second thought...

[X] Accept the offer. Victoria will have air superiority in the upcoming battle; you can merely hope to cut down on the damage. This is one way, and it'll hurt their other forces as well. The NCR is a power on the continent; their good intentions are a valuable thing to court. Of course, despite how believable mass equipment breakdowns would be among Victorian forces, there's always the chance that the NCR's duplicity could be discovered. A Russian crackdown on the NCR would mean that your prospective friend on the West Coast would be permanently turned into a bitter enemy.

[X] 1-point option: Industry Advisors

[X] 1-point option: Intelligence Advisors

P.S.

Simon_Jester said:
Will you please stop doing this?

Seriously. It's annoying, it's insulting. You're persistently mischaracterizing large groups of people's opinions ("everyone called me paranoid," "now people are scared" as if they wouldn't be scared anyway).

And this isn't the first time, nor yet the second, and it's getting old.

I did NOT join this quest so I could listen to someone re-litigate one of the initial character generation votes over and over while keeping up this pretense that everything would be sunshine and rainbows if only we'd done what they wanted. I mean hell, I voted for what you wanted and dear GOD you are making me regret that decision.

...

In all seriousness, the NCR would still be planning their revolt regardless of whether we chose Johnson or Burns. And because they're not complete idiots, they'd be reaching out to us and trying to see about forming an alliance anyway. What would you have told them? "Sorry, we're in the middle of a 5-10 year buildup and we'll call you later if you're still alive?"
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Sympathies.
 
If we do end up getting industrial advisors, it has been confirmed in discord that we can have them teach students. So we can probably start setting up a small technical school that would later be able to expand using the knowledge, giving us at least some semi-trained industrial workers.
 
[X] Accept the offer. Victoria will have air superiority in the upcoming battle; you can merely hope to cut down on the damage. This is one way, and it'll hurt their other forces as well. The NCR is a power on the continent; their good intentions are a valuable thing to court. Of course, despite how believable mass equipment breakdowns would be among Victorian forces, there's always the chance that the NCR's duplicity could be discovered. A Russian crackdown on the NCR would mean that your prospective friend on the West Coast would be permanently turned into a bitter enemy.

[X] 1-point option: Industry Advisors

[X] 1-point option: Intelligence Advisors
 
Simon_Jester said:
Presumably the NCR expects that in three years' time, they'll be able to revolt against Russian rule without getting squashed. Since they know a lot more about their own military readiness, and have a lot more contact with the Russians than we do, I'm inclined to trust their assessment.
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To an extent I agree. However what I do not trust is them and us having the full three years if anyone in Victoria has reason to believe we had outside help.

So if I understand you rightly, what you want is to minimize risk of exposure, not to minimize contact with the NCR as such. Right?
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While minimising exposure is my primary concern I'm also at best lukewarm on expending more than token effort building relations with a nation on the south-west coast. Even assuming we are both still around in a decade (far from guaranteed) we have many closer neighbours to deal with.
 
I really think we ought to reign this in before we end up trying to micromanage every decision we need to make in the future.
 
Angelform said:
To an extent I agree. However what I do not trust is them and us having the full three years if anyone in Victoria has reason to believe we had outside help.

While minimising exposure is my primary concern I'm also at best lukewarm on expending more than token effort building relations with a nation on the south-west coast. Even assuming we are both still around in a decade (far from guaranteed) we have many closer neighbours to deal with.
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We have closer neighbors, but none of them have Old World technology and their own nuclear deterrent. The NCR would be an incredibly valuable friend to have. Sure, distance means we can't do much to support each other directly without a very ambitious program of clearing and securing land routes across the country in between, but a lot of the things we need most aren't bulky physical objects.
 
If they succeed, and take a good amount if territory, I can see NCR becoming a pretty powerful nation internationally. And by that, I mean that I wouldn't want to make enemies with them if we don't have to.
 
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Indeed; one of the toughest challenges a Revivalist movement will face is going to be persuading an independent California to come back into the fray. We definitely can't do that by force of arms, which is one reason I've been favoring diplomatic ties.
 
[X] Deny the offer. You frankly do not feel ready to trust the NCR. They've changed since you last were there, and you've heard some foreboding things about how militaristic they were in expanding into Arizona and Nevada. Plus, separated from you as they are by the Rockies, they would make a poor ally. Obviously, the NCR will be far cooler towards you, and you would have no help with resisting the Victorians' attack.
 
[X] Accept the offer. Victoria will have air superiority in the upcoming battle; you can merely hope to cut down on the damage. This is one way, and it'll hurt their other forces as well. The NCR is a power on the continent; their good intentions are a valuable thing to court. Of course, despite how believable mass equipment breakdowns would be among Victorian forces, there's always the chance that the NCR's duplicity could be discovered. A Russian crackdown on the NCR would mean that your prospective friend on the West Coast would be permanently turned into a bitter enemy.

The NCR desires a buffer state to their east. We desire aid from a relatively strong and advanced American faction. This deal has an acceptable level of risk for the amount of aid.
 
Time for some Approval Voting
[X] Positive Sum Trades
-[X] Two Points
-[X] Industry Advisors
-[X] Military Advisors

[X] 2-point option: Industry Advisors and Industry Equipment Technologies (schematics)

[X] 2-point option: Anti air guns

[X] 2-point option: Industry Advisors and Intelligence Advisors
 
Rat King said:
Not trying to minmax our choice and just letting the chips fall where they may when we pick an option, taking the good AND the bad that comes from making that narrative choice.
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Not going to lie - while that's easier to do in some quests, for a mixed nation-builder that allows for large scale combat and stuff like this, we should allow for coordinated planning and a degree of heavy control over potential decisions. However, I think that to speed up the process, we should vote for broad general actions first, and then go into refining them in detail via the voting and points system afterwards.

This allows for both broad narrative moments and a degree of micromanagement/efficiency that can be enjoyed by people from the CK2 empire builder school and the super-narrative school as well.

Edit: Take this with a grain of salt though. I'm not an expert on this sort of stuff.
Edit 2: Also, I trust poptart to take the quest in a fun direction regardless of what system they use.
 
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Negotiations like this are always difficult to get right, because by nature what would be a long back and forth between two parties has to be reduced to a handful of votes at the maximum.
 
Heads up people. I've computed the potential launch sites for Victorian F-16 raids. (Sources are Janes and F-16.net)

The minimum landing length required for F-16s is between 6000 and 8000. The Vicky's might push it down to 5000, but that'll help narrow the potential landing/resupply points significantly. However, it seems that the minimum runway length needed for F-16s to take off is around 2000 feet with practice. The Vickys will probably have take-off airfields with runways of 2000 feet or above.

Therefore, our search restrictions for potential forward air bases are as follows:
- Any launching airfield must have a minimum runway length of 2000 feet
- Any landing/resupply airfield must have a strip equal to or greater than 5700 feet
- Both launching and landing airfields must be within 200 miles of Chicago, as the Vicky F-16s will probably be flying with full bomb load outs, which greatly reduces maximum range
- Any field must be road accessible, in order to supply the various F-16s

In clearer terms, Vicky F-16s should be located within this ideal zone between 200 and 300 miles from Chicago: (note that it is unlikely that Victoria will launch F-16s from south or west of Chicago.)

 
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Closest airbase I can think of with the facilities to support F-16s is Toledo Express, which IRL hosts a squadron for the Ohio Air National Guard.
 
CompassJimbo said:
Closest airbase I can think of with the facilities to support F-16s is Toledo Express, which IRL hosts a squadron for the Ohio Air National Guard.
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Yep. Toledo Express is within the potential launch zone.

Also, include Selfridge Air National Guard base outside of Detroit

Edit: Bad news for us - every single runway at Detroit Metropolitan Airport exceeds minimum requirements rather handily - if I was a betting man, I'd bet you Victorian operations would center out of there.

Other metropolitan airports that exceed the minimum requirements within the area specified in the above map include -
- Bishop International Airport (Flint Michigan) - 2x Runways of 7000+ length
- MBS International Airport (Freeland Michigan) - 2x Runways, 1x of 8000+ length and 1x of 6000+ length
- Cherry Capital Airport (Traverse City Michigan) - 2x Runways, 1x of 7000+ length and 1x of 5000+ length
- Mansfield Lahm Regional Airport (Mansfield Ohio) - 2x Runways, 1x 9000+ length and 1x of 6000+ length

Note, this list is by no means comprehensive, but it does mean that the Victorians have at least 5x Civilian Airports that they could potentially repurpose for F-16 base sites within the ideal distance. I can't get much more comprehensive, but we should try to ascertain the status of all of these installations. I doubt time has necessarily been kind to them, but they could all still be capable of maintaining and fielding aircraft.
 
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