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I like this plan and I hope it makes the cut



...Huh, I would've thought a lot more coast guard stuff would have made it, what with the size of the lakes and even the coast guard base on an island in lake Erie. Granted most of those aren't heavily armed, but I'm pretty sure there's a cutter stationed in one of the Bass islands by Sandusky.

Or the fact that there's a functioning WW2 submarine in Cleveland USS COD HOMEPAGE

Apparently the damn thing can still submerge

We did have the option of getting four cutters in Green Water, but it's pricey.
 
Who needs the ocean or coasts anyway? We in wild west baby! (Wild west with political struggle, tinpot warlords, super plagues, nukes, and meddling foreign countries but eh. Apparently wild west is freezing cold too, who would have thought?)
 
I'm hacking together a set of plans that preserves the spirit of the plans y'all submitted. While I work at that, there's a spirited argument in the Discord which could use resolving at some point for game purposes, so could the thread debate the topic of how easy it would be for a country in your situation to begin mass production of nuclear devices and their delivery systems? Kindly cite sources.

Thanks!
 
I'm hacking together a set of plans that preserves the spirit of the plans y'all submitted. While I work at that, there's a spirited argument in the Discord which could use resolving at some point for game purposes, so could the thread debate the topic of how easy it would be for a country in your situation to begin mass production of nuclear devices and their delivery systems? Kindly cite sources.

Thanks!
Yep, that's an SB/SV argument all right.
 
I'm hacking together a set of plans that preserves the spirit of the plans y'all submitted. While I work at that, there's a spirited argument in the Discord which could use resolving at some point for game purposes, so could the thread debate the topic of how easy it would be for a country in your situation to begin mass production of nuclear devices and their delivery systems? Kindly cite sources.

Thanks!
Well, let's see.

In order for mass production of nuclear warheads, we'll need the entire supply chain of a nuclear infrastructure.

That means :
1) Uranium mining
2) Uranium conversion
3) Uranium enrichment (uranium weapon) or breeding (plutonium weapon)
4) Reprocessing (plutonium only) and conversion to metal

How uranium ore is made into nuclear fuel - World Nuclear Association
Uranium Enrichment | Enrichment of uranium - World Nuclear Association
Nuclear Fuel Cycle Overview - World Nuclear Association

A lot of this infrastructure is stuff we simply won't have, because nuclear infrastructure is highly centralized. All enrichment for Europe is done in a single facility in France. All enrichment for the US can similarly be done in a single facility. If we don't have that facility, then we don't have any enrichment capability, and it's quite high tech stuff.

The facilities also need maintenance and some rather dangerous chemicals, including my favorite, chlorinetrifluoride.

It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water—with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals—steel, copper, aluminum, etc.—because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride that protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminum keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.[2][17][18]

Furthermore, you'll need quite a bit of enrichment.

But enrichment is not the least of your worries. In principle, you can go from enrichment directly to weaponsgrade, but that requires reorganizing the cascades. Without the technical personnel, both operating and reorganizing the cascades is impossible.

If you go with plutonium, you need a specially build reactor (which won't produce useful power), and then reprocess the fuel. This is not a trivial operation. If you want to do mass production, these'll have to be some rather big reactors.

It helps if you have foreign aid providing you with designs that aid in nuclear weapon production. The British Magnox design for example is the only existing design that can produce both nuclear weaponry and power.

If you want to run a nuclear weapons project on a shoestring, this is the design you want. It's no suprise that this is what powers the North Korean nuclear weapons project.

Magnox - Wikipedia
 
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I'm hacking together a set of plans that preserves the spirit of the plans y'all submitted. While I work at that, there's a spirited argument in the Discord which could use resolving at some point for game purposes, so could the thread debate the topic of how easy it would be for a country in your situation to begin mass production of nuclear devices and their delivery systems? Kindly cite sources.

Thanks!

So, if you know the theory, nukes are kinda ridiculously easy to make. A boy scout in the 90s came damn close to making a breeder reactor. Main issue is access to the materials. Once you get the enriched uranium, a gun style nuke is just a matter of hitting two barely sub-critical masses together hard enough to make them go boom.

Of course, the boy scout had access to significantly better infrastructure to acquire the materials than we are likely to have. So the issues are just going to be infrastructure to enrich the uranium and access to the uranium itself.
 
What if we just want dirt bombs?

In that case, all you need to know is that dirty bombs are a nonsense concept.

Use nails. Those will be far more dangerous.

So, if you know the theory, nukes are kinda ridiculously easy to make. A boy scout in the 90s came damn close to making a breeder reactor. Main issue is access to the materials. Once you get the enriched uranium, a gun style nuke is just a matter of hitting two barely sub-critical masses together hard enough to make them go boom.

Eh, you're significantly misrepresenting stuff. This guy came close to making a breeder reactor in the same fashion that lighting a match in a pool of gasoline is coming close to creating a jet engine.

Even the wikipedia article admits that he never came anywhere near critical mass. All he made was a bag with radioactive garbage in it.
 
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If we decide to go with gasification for enrichment, all we would need is a metric ton of power, and lots of flourite, which we have in our territory. Then, it would take a few specialized facilities to actually make it, but we can probably get to around 60% enrichment. Enough for a well over massed gun-type device, if desperate. The only real problem would be the amount of energy this would eat, and the sheer number of coal power plants that would need to be constructed to actually run this.

Even then it would only make a device that is at best around 10kt and is about the mass of the devices dropped on Japan.

Uranium processing: A review of current methods and technology
 
I'm not a nuclear scholar, but I think the efficient market hypothesis is pretty clear on the subject.
  1. Nukes are Easy to get
  2. Nukes are Valuable to have
  3. Only a few countries have nukes
Pick up to 2. If nukes are in fact easy:
either the third hypothesis is false, which should require a lot of evidence on some mass coverup since it seems pretty clear how limited the number of nuclear powers are
or the second hypothesis is false, which means we shouldn't be getting them.

There are some limited holes here to fit through, like nukes being worthless in most cases but valuable in a very select few, or nukes being hard only because of international effort to stop them, but neither has remotely been demonstrated. Furthermore, there's no reason to believe that the international situation is more nuke friendly (it probably isn't, given china, and also Russia hating our guts) and for the first there wouldn't be any reason to expect that to apply to us.
 
I'm not a nuclear scholar, but I think the efficient market hypothesis is pretty clear on the subject.
  1. Nukes are Easy to get
  2. Nukes are Valuable to have
  3. Only a few countries have nukes
Pick up to 2. If nukes are in fact easy:
either the third hypothesis is false, which should require a lot of evidence on some mass coverup since it seems pretty clear how limited the number of nuclear powers are
or the second hypothesis is false, which means we shouldn't be getting them.

There are some limited holes here to fit through, like nukes being worthless in most cases but valuable in a very select few, or nukes being hard only because of international effort to stop them, but neither has remotely been demonstrated. Furthermore, there's no reason to believe that the international situation is more nuke friendly (it probably isn't, given china, and also Russia hating our guts) and for the first there wouldn't be any reason to expect that to apply to us.
The problem isn't making a nuke that can be dropped from a bomber and that weighs 20 tons, that's reasonably easy and can be done for reasonable cost. The problem is making one small enough to be mounted on an actually useful platform.
 
Nukes are mostly useless. ICBMs have the dubious use of preventing others from using ICBMs against you. Same with submarine-launched nukes. Maybe you can have low-tech airplane-delivered bombs, but you still need a similar level of high-tech for those to be useful for MAD purposes.

Meanwhile, if you just want to OHKO Victoria, it'll have the side-effect of irradiating the entire area and killing tons of civilians even outside your target. Possibly encouraging Russia to just flatten America and be done with it.

Then again, I might be wrong seeing as how everyone wants nukes.
 
I mean, North Korea got a nuke, but they also had help from outside actors and are a functioning state, even if they are also a totalitarian hellhole.

So I don't think it's as easy as people make it out to be. Especially when we're starting from a techbase that's probably sub-1940s.
 
Nukes are mostly useless. ICBMs have the dubious use of preventing others from using ICBMs against you. Same with submarine-launched nukes. Maybe you can have low-tech airplane-delivered bombs, but you still need a similar level of high-tech for those to be useful for MAD purposes.

Meanwhile, if you just want to OHKO Victoria, it'll have the side-effect of irradiating the entire area and killing tons of civilians even outside your target. Possibly encouraging Russia to just flatten America and be done with it.

Then again, I might be wrong seeing as how everyone wants nukes.
I think we might, for the sake of argument, assume that the city-destroying warheads that have been built by the world's superpowers by the thousand at extreme costs in production and R&D have at least some nominal use to them.
 
I think we might, for the sake of argument, assume that the city-destroying warheads that have been built by the world's superpowers by the thousand at extreme costs in production and R&D have at least some nominal use to them.

In our specific circumstances, MAD, maybe, but we're not going to be getting anywhere close to having enough nukes or the delivery capacity for any kind of MAD scenario for a looooooong time. Otherwise, we'd just be using them to nuke fellow Americans.
 
Nukes are mostly useless. ICBMs have the dubious use of preventing others from using ICBMs against you. Same with submarine-launched nukes.
If anyone else in the world has a nuclear arsenal, that is a pretty good use.

I mean, if there was only one nuclear power and they were inclined to play conquistador, the rest of the world would be in serious trouble, one way or the other.

Shit got wild during the Collapse. And the Cod got unfunded.

And then rust-hulked.
I mean.

The Great Lakes are freshwater, so hulls can last a surprisingly long time.

But the innards would be so rusted out it'd probably be easier to build a new submarine.

That, or the thing might have been cut up for scrap metal at some point. Given how fragmented the US economy is, I suspect a lot of things are being treated as scrap metal because it's easier to find high-grade scrap metal than to actually put together the logistical chain to run a steel mill.

I'm hacking together a set of plans that preserves the spirit of the plans y'all submitted. While I work at that, there's a spirited argument in the Discord which could use resolving at some point for game purposes, so could the thread debate the topic of how easy it would be for a country in your situation to begin mass production of nuclear devices and their delivery systems? Kindly cite sources.

Thanks!
Delivery systems? Well, you need heavy cruise missiles or jet fighters, or ballistic missiles. All of which are difficult, and in the "billion dollar project" range. But doable if we had ten or twenty years to build up to it and rolled well on our 'salvage heavy equipment' checks, maybe.

The actual bombs themselves?

Staggeringly fucking difficult.

The chief obstacle is enrichment of uranium. We could probably secure a uranium mine somewhere and if we were grimly determined to get uranium out of it even at uneconomical prices, we could. But turning the uranium into bomb-grade fissile material takes a massive refining apparatus and a very large amount of electricity. It took the historical US what would be thirty billion dollars today to build up the early Manhattan Project infrastructure to turn out the first few bombs.

Now, you could shave some of those costs by deliberately avoiding the less efficient methods of making bomb fuel (they tried all the methods at once because they didn't know which would work). But on the other hand, it indicates the scale of the effort. The US also dedicated about one sixth of its then-extant electrical generating capacity to the Manhattan Project and had thousands of highly trained personnel who had spent the entire early 20th century learning advanced math, science, and engineering. Plus, massive amounts of precision-engineered and carefully machined hardware, of types we would now be hard-pressed to duplicate in Chicagoland, I suspect.

Plus,, and we'd be starting about as much from scratch as they were in terms of the actual bomb design because that information is so secret it almost certainly didn't survive the Collapse.

There's a reason countries like Iran and North Korea (which have a lot more equipment and assets than we do) spend literally decades on their nuclear program before actually getting anywhere.

...

I'm going to be perfectly honest, I don't think it's realistically achievable. Chicagoland wishes it had the resources of a country like North Korea right now, and North Korea spent decades while intentionally starving the rest of its population to build up its military, nuclear, and missile programs.

The NCR, depending on how developed they are, might be able to pull it off. New York? I doubt it, not without significant foreign assistance, if only because they probably don't have the resources. Victoria? Well, they might pull it off like North Korea, but the Russians no doubt want to avoid that outcome.
 
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I mean.

The Great Lakes are freshwater, so hulls can last a surprisingly long time.

But the innards would be so rusted out it'd probably be easier to build a new submarine.

That, or the thing might have been cut up for scrap metal at some point. Given how fragmented the US economy is, I suspect a lot of things are being treated as scrap metal because it's easier to find high-grade scrap metal than to actually put together the logistical chain to run a steel mill.
That as well, yes.
 
Well-preserved clearly is a must then, as it would provide a few caches of technology that let us get developed and going. Plus, we may be able to at least rip off more modern industrial facilities, instead of using old designs in books.
 
[raises eyebrows]

Keeping a nuclear reactor going for 30-50 years after the total collapse of national infrastructure is going a tad bit beyond what I'd call 'merely well preserved.'

Some government agency must have budget to spent and purchased all the extras & backups. Then put in a warehouse somewhere and forgot about it. :V
 
And the Cod got unfunded.

And then rust-hulked.
Simon said it better than me.
But the innards would be so rusted out it'd probably be easier to build a new submarine.

If a curator saw the writing on the wall would they be able to pump in CO2 to displace the normal atmosphere so all you'd need to worry about is gravity warped drive shafts?*

*that's the beginners list of things you'd need to worry about, but still a non O2 atmosphere in the guts of the ship and you'd have more to worry about the Cuyahoga river catching fire again doing in the ship**

**Idk why i'm holding a flame for one tiny U-boat when making a new one isn't even that technically complex. The Confederacy built one for chrissakes
 
I'm hacking together a set of plans that preserves the spirit of the plans y'all submitted. While I work at that, there's a spirited argument in the Discord which could use resolving at some point for game purposes, so could the thread debate the topic of how easy it would be for a country in your situation to begin mass production of nuclear devices and their delivery systems? Kindly cite sources.

Thanks!

Count me in the "nuclear weapons are relatively manageable, should they be a priority" camp.

The plan is to enrich natural uranium using a heavy water reactor, similar to Iran's Arak nuclear facility and what the British stopped Nazi Germany from building in the Norsk Hydro raid. What's going on in the fuel cycle is that unenriched U-235 gets bombarded by neutrons, turning it into U-239; that U-239 undergoes beta decay, becoming Pu-239. Now, instead of enriching uranium and having to solve the problem of isotope separation, we can chemically extract the plutonium from our spent fuel rods.

The bomb we make is a Hiroshima-style gun-type device -- we're literally shooting two subcritical pieces of plutonium together to make one critical piece. Nothing sophisticated, just a shitty, simple kiloton tactical explosion, useful to strap to a bridge or mountain pass to keep it from being overrun.

The biggest difficulty here is sourcing the heavy water -- not only is that somewhat expensive, any other state actor that sees a country buying a whole lot of heavy water is going to ask some very pointed questions about proliferation. That's a human problem, though, not a technical problem.

Edit: Heavy Water Reactors is also a good resource.
 
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Like, we can always get to making I-201 knock-offs when the steel industry is properly going. And well, send em down the Mississippi, refuel in Miami, and sink some victorian supply convoys.
 
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