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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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Antix_Shadows said:
Then give a rebuttal regarding why putting military over literally everything else and getting us attacked sooner than later is superior to every other choice we can make, and Oorah fuck yeah America, let's kick ass is not a good reasoning.

It's not insulting to say people are making a mistake.
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But we don't need to put military over everything else?

With all these bonuses written in, we can do well enough - our green forces, presumably, could at least stop Victorians, and these bonuses mean that we can have our elite batallion do a deep strike and leave all the invasion forces without food and shells. Not guaranteed - but life itself is incredibly risky venture in these times.
Taling Disunited Currency and Population Boom allows us to take Merchants, Vaccinations, Libraries and Brown Water Navy / Established.
And such a writeup looks to be good enough to me, even if I would have preferred to take all these perks and throw Rail Companies on top.

But, since we have "Professionals Study Logistics", I assume that we can set up good enough roads.
 
@Antix_Shadows I'm voting for Local Hero and have already made posts arguing for it.

Saying "people dont give a shit" is insulting.
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
...because Old Guard gives you the military and option flexibility to be able to take all those nice economic perks,
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Old Guard gives us a single unit that's spent all this time running from the Victorians. I think it's hugely overconfident to think we can win against an early game attack with just the military forces we gain from Old Guard. Meanwhile, having Victorian attention on day one means there will be follow up attacks that we'l have to deal with later on instead of building up economy. Going for an early game conflict could lock us into constant warfare for most of the quest.
 
Antix_Shadows said:
Then give a rebuttal regarding why putting military over literally everything else and getting us attacked sooner than later is superior to every other choice we can make, and Oorah fuck yeah America, let's kick ass is not a good reasoning.

It's not insulting to say people are making a mistake.
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Begging the question, much? Speaking for myself, I was already planning to take professionals study logistics, as it's a great combination military / Econ buff, which makes the old guard soldier a free point extra; sure, it comes with Victorian attention, but I also planned on taking that anyway for the points, and if anything old world equipment will make us safer from that than my own plan of foreign equipment.

Should they pass, my vote would be:
Libraries
Universities
Independant Merchants
Brown Water Navy
Old World Training
Population Boom
Disastrous Start
Hostile Neighborhood
Disunited Currency


I'd be willing to compromise on the greatest sin for an additional benefit, like Good Security + Rail Network or Vaccinations *maybe* just removing disunited currency.
 
Derpmind said:
@Antix_Shadows I'm voting for Local Hero and have already made posts arguing for it.

Saying "people dont give a shit" is insulting.


Old Guard gives us a single unit that's spent all this time running from the Victorians. I think it's hugely overconfident to think we can win against an early game attack with just the military forces we gain from Old Guard. Meanwhile, having Victorian attention on day one means there will be follow up attacks that we'l have to deal with later on instead of building up economy. Going for an early game conflict could lock us into constant warfare for most of the quest.
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You're right. And I apologize. I must however state that poptart already warned us about trying to game the system. So it stands to reason that were were going to have to sacrifice somewhere.

We should probably take vaccinations. Poptart implied on discord last night that were gonna need very good medical stuff.
 
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PoptartProdigy said:
Old World Hardware (-1 CP): ... Can be taken multiple times. Each time grants a body of hardware large enough to auto-resolve in your favor one tactical engagement. Five uses before you can't supply it anymore. Few troops these days are trained to use this type of gear, so intense use may burn through multiple uses.
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PoptartProdigy said:
Old World Soldiers (-1 CP): ... Finally, these troops have at least the theoretical training to use Old World Hardware without burning multiple uses in intense engagements.
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Combined, we have 5 intense tactical engagements we can just win, in addition to material for eventual reverse-engineering. We can definitely beat back Victoria's first wave.

EDIT: Need I also mention that the veterans comprise a combined-arms battalion, which has armor we are pretty critically lacking? Even without the Old World Equipment, they're already heavily advantaged in any engagement, meaning we can save the equipment for the really hard battles.
 
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Corripere said:
Combined, we have 5 intense tactical engagements we can just win, in addition to material for eventual reverse-engineering. We can definitely beat back Victoria's first wave.
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A single tactical engagement each turn, sure. But Victora's attack will be on the strategic side, and we'll need more than a single unit that can win individual fights.

Personally, for the ground conflict I'd rather just start with Old World Training (-2 CP). We can build up an army and better logistics over time, especially if we can afford to buy the railway. As long as we don't take the logistics penalty, (which basically no one will,) we'll have competent if not exceptional logistics to start with. That with one of the two boat options is enough to start with.
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
...because Old Guard gives you the military and option flexibility to be able to take all those nice economic perks, plus a hopefully huge amount of legitimacy for snapping Victoria's military over your back like a dry twig? Like, you know that Canon Omake: Jousting At Windmills? That was a single Abrams tank. The Old Guard start gives us an entire battalion of those. If we wanted to, we could probably launch a decisive engagement immediately, and instantly destroy the majority of Victoria's firepower.
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You mean, fight them and lose in a month instead of a week? Winning battles isn't winning wars. We don't even have a state at this point. Do we even have the sources of fuel to run a tank based war against Victoria? Russia probably sells them oil. We don't have any good source of that.
 
Derpmind said:
A single tactical engagement each turn, sure. But Victora's attack will be on the strategic side, and we'll need more than a single unit that can win individual fights.

Personally, for the ground conflict I'd rather just start with Old World Training (-2 CP). We can build up an army and better logistics over time, especially if we can afford to buy the railway. As long as we don't take the logistics penalty, (which basically no one will,) we'll have competent if not exceptional logistics to start with. That with one of the two boat options is enough to start with.
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We don't have to use the old-world equipment every single fight, only the ones we expect to be very bloody. For most concentrations of power, our veterans group, with superior armor and training, is enough.

And the thing is, people like victors. We gain extreme amounts of diplomatic capital with our neighbors and across the country by repeatedly smashing Victoria. Enough to consider diplomatic reunification schemes.

Nyvis said:
You mean, fight them and lose in a month instead of a week? Winning battles isn't winning wars. We don't even have a state at this point. Do we even have the sources of fuel to run a tank based war against Victoria? Russia probably sells them oil. We don't have any good source of that.
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Apparently we get the best logistics on the continent with Old Guard, so yes? If Victoria can deploy at us, we can certainly deploy right back at them.
 
veteranMortal said:
Logistics can efficiently move what you have, but we don't have any oil.
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Professionals Study Logistics (-3 CP): You have broad power projection and can simply outlast most opponents absent devastating defeat. Mutually exclusive with, "Shattered Logistics."
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I assumed outlasting to imply our vehicles won't run out of fuel before theirs do. I mean, this is a 3CP option, so it should be pretty damn good to be worth 15 auto-win battles at the minimum. But then again, that's a question for @PoptartProdigy
 
Corripere said:
And the thing is, people like victors. We gain extreme amounts of diplomatic capital with our neighbors and across the country by repeatedly smashing Victoria. Enough to consider diplomatic reunification schemes.
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Oh I'm not contesting that. I'm contesting the fact we will win. Ignoring material concerns because that is a story, us jumping at the emblematic villain right out of the gates and winning right away would be absolutely terrible storytelling and basically all of the quest after that would feel like dragging it on after its logical conclusion. I'm pretty certain our QM is a better writer than that.
 
Corripere said:
And the thing is, people like victors. We gain extreme amounts of diplomatic capital with our neighbors and across the country by repeatedly smashing Victoria. Enough to consider diplomatic reunification schemes.
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Have you looked at the map? We're tiny, and Victoria is huge. We might win small scale conflicts, but if we make Victoria pissed off enough to mount a full campaign, we'll be absolutely crushed. We won't "smash Victoria", we'll beat Victoria's first few attacks then get completely swamped when they send their entire army to utterly destroy us.
 
Nyvis said:
Oh I'm not contesting that. I'm contesting the fact we will win. Ignoring material concerns because that is a story, us jumping at the emblematic villain right out of the gates and winning right away would be absolutely terrible storytelling and basically all of the quest after that would feel like dragging it on after its logical conclusion. I'm pretty certain our QM is a better writer than that.
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Yeah, Poptart's a better writer than that. Poptart's not going to make an impossible scenario. I'm not saying we'll win a protracted war, but we will win the first few attacks given all the CP Old Guard gives in that direction. And without Russian assistance, we can continue to push them back as long as we don't overextend (due to the nature of power projection favoring those closer to the battlefield). What we do with this breathing room and huge legitimacy (small-l) push is what'll make or break an Old Guard game. If we can secure alliances, reestablish a greater union in the surrounding areas, and obtain resources, our game continues.

EDIT: I mean, see Winter War for small country vs large country. As a police state, Victoria can't simply afford throwing bodies into a meatgrinder lest their country topples.
 
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That's a lot of ifs. I'd much rather start with enough military, and go from there, rather than try to sustain a starting strong mitary.
 
Antix_Shadows said:
That's a lot of ifs. I'd much rather start with enough military, and go from there, rather than try to sustain a starting strong mitary.
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There's nothing to sustain. Old Guard just lets us repel their first attacks, and we can do whatever we want in the meantime. A strong military is also kinda hard to build up, given Poptart mentioned that turns are half-years, followed by noting that raising our unis to Level 2 in quality would take multiple turns of focus, with 2 -> 3, 3->4 each being more difficult than the last. And there's the risk in a build-up strategy--you get noticed by Victoria in a series of bad dice rolls without being ready for them.
 
Corripere said:
Yeah, Poptart's a better writer than that. Poptart's not going to make an impossible scenario. I'm not saying we'll win a protracted war, but we will win the first few attacks given all the CP Old Guard gives in that direction. And without Russian assistance, we can continue to push them back as long as we don't overextend (due to the nature of power projection favoring those closer to the battlefield). What we do with this breathing room and huge legitimacy (small-l) push is what'll make or break an Old Guard game. If we can secure alliances, reestablish a greater union in the surrounding areas, and obtain resources, our game continues.

EDIT: I mean, see Winter War for small country vs large country. As a police state, Victoria can't simply afford throwing bodies into a meatgrinder lest their country topples.
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Police states are in fact pretty good at keeping their population in line. Democracies are the ones really worried about protracted war. The winter war went the way it did because the soviets also had other concerns. Victoria seem the kind inclined to total war if you push them. Their reaction to us getting early wins won't be a truce we can build from, it'll be to go beg Russia for help.

Poptart isn't going to make an impossible scenario, but they may make one punishing us for underestimating the iconic and central villain. Also, "go at Victoria's throat militarily right away" isn't an option so you can't really argue the QM put it on the table and it's not a trap. Having a strong military and Victoria's attention is an option. There's nothing about it implying an early war with them, so that could totally still be suicide. And if we don't use that shiny military right away, we're paying for it for nothing. And having a big drawback of Victorian attention.

I'd rather extend the other way diplomatically for as long as possible so that the Russians can feel secure in having their puppet alive. Because as soon as it looks like Victoria is going down, we'll become public enemy number one.
 
Nyvis said:
Poptart isn't going to make an impossible scenario, but they may make one punishing us for underestimating the iconic and central villain. Also, "go at Victoria's throat militarily right away" isn't an option so you can't really argue the QM put it on the table and it's not a trap. Having a strong military and Victoria's attention is an option. There's nothing about it implying an early war with them, so that could totally still be suicide. And if we don't use that shiny military right away, we're paying for it for nothing. And having a big drawback of Victorian attention.
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PoptartProdigy said:
You will face Victorian intervention at some point during turns 1-4.
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Yeah fair, that means we get that war, at least on the defensive. Doesn't mean we'll do more than push them back a little even if we win, which is unlikely to have the level of positive consequences you described. That seems like a pretty big risk to me, still. And likely to attract a second wave of intervention, this time with Russian backing.
 
It is a two-point option, though. It's 2CP, so about as bad as Crossed Wires, which is pretty bad and problematic but not suicidal. Russia's distracted, which means they won't intervene unless we're particularly egregious. Their hands are really full with China right now.

Old Guard is just as valid an option as any other, and it's particularly optimized for a strong-military start. Frankly, I think it boils down to whether or not you want to beat in Victorian heads sooner or later, and that's what I came here for.
 
I think you're overselling the danger of Victoria attention. This isn't a whiteroom bloodlusted matchup: while Victoria will come after us, it won't be able to throw everything they have at us.
Victoria is a puppet state, its military, economy and unity made possible by Russia. Unfortunately for Victoria, Russia needs to pull its hand out of its puppet's ass in order to put out the fires at home. That means that Victoria won't be able to go all in on a war with us. They're going to need troops to maintain internal order and to deal with all the other american groups that are going to want a piece of them.
I suspect that one of their biggest goals in attacking us will be for a short, victorious war that reaffirms their power on the continent and silences any doubts as to their legitimacy and power. A loss on their part in such a conflict will only create more problems for them as everyone realizes the puppet's weakness.
And the thing is, they're crazy enough not to realize this. We're dealing with a group that has drunk the kool-aid and have their heads so far up their collective asses that they won't even realize the reason "short, victorious war" is a tongue in cheek phrase meant to mock those who rely in it.

From a meta perspective: Victoria attention is a 2cp flaw. Disunited currency is a 3cp flaw. Which do you think will hurt more?

Corripere said:
Old Guard is just as valid an option as any other, and it's particularly optimized for a strong-military start. Frankly, I think it boils down to whether or not you want to beat in Victorian heads sooner or later, and that's what I came here for.
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And this. This is a big part of my vote. I'm in this quest to punch NazisVicks. There are a plethora of economy-sims available of SV.
 
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Well, don't know what to say to that other than I trust Poptart to make an interesting game with fair options at creation.
 
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