Voting is open
To be fair to N0Way, the effort to explain an absurdly extremist and successful American fascist terrorist movement with an absurdly extremist and successful Russian ecofascist empire is one of the more cringe elements of this quest.

But @N0Way, I have to ask, when did you pick this quest up to be able to drop it? It isn't like Poptart hid that this was a future history where an ecofascist Russia had committed more mass murder than you could shake a stick at... If you just wanted to say that the portrayal of Russia was not to your taste, there were better ways.

fasquardon
 
To be fair to N0Way, the effort to explain an absurdly extremist and successful American fascist terrorist movement with an absurdly extremist and successful Russian ecofascist empire is one of the more cringe elements of this quest.
When you start with a premise of "the events of the novel are something close to true", there's going to be a heck of a lot of cringe. Blame Lind, not anyone here.
 
Yeah, how dare Poptart defame Russia like this! It's slander to portray Russia as a authoritarian, nationalist power with no respect for human rights and a penchant for wars of oppression….wait a second
 
Last edited:
I have learned a fair bit about the foreign policy worldview, concerns, and fixations of Russian far-right ultranationalists have due to reading up on current events. I would like to talk about Tsar Alexander IV and how well or not his thinking matches the thinking of actual Russian ultranationalists. It has been mentioned before that the late Tsar Alexander IV's fixation on smashing up and keeping the Americans down is increasingly irrational and counterproductive in a time when Europe and China are rising to challenge the New Russian Empire. However, I would like to hammer the point that Tsar Alexander IV really does not actually behave like how the average Russian imperialistic ultranationalist would behave if they were granted the same massive and absurd but still limited power to smash up and reshape the world to their liking. In his obsession with and hatred of the Americans, Alexander IV ignored many actual concerns and fixations of real-life Russian foreign policy makers and ultranationalists.

Russian foreign policy has been historically focused on the potential vulnerability of Russia to land attack due Russia's lack of major geographic barriers except for rivers. To counteract the effects of this vulnerability, Russian foreign policy makers have called for the conquest of more territories and/or the establishment of puppet buffer states to put as much space as possible between the Russian core territories around Moscow and Russia's potential enemies. Powerful states and alliances that border the territories of Russia or the historical Russian sphere of influence are considered massive potential threats and should be vigorously opposed by Russia and be destroyed if possible. Russian imperialists are generally focused on destroying or dominating all potential foes in Europe or Eurasia is the key to Russian survival and success. Russian foreign policy makers are still obsessed with the idea of a sudden massive land invasion against Russia despite the existence of Russia's massive nuclear arsenal acting as a deterrence. Any powerful state or alliance system that border the territories of Russia or the historical Russian sphere of influence are viewed as potential sources of a second Operation Barbarossa regardless of the actual policies and beliefs of that state or alliance. Any state or territory that falls outside of direct Russian control or the Russian sphere of influence must be returned to the fold by force if necessary. Russian ultranationalists are either Eurocentric or Eurasianist in their concerns. Mastery and dominance of Europe or Eurasia and not the rest of the world is viewed as the key to Russian survival and success.

Alexander IV invested a lot of resources in destabilizing and smashing up many countries to establish Russian dominance over the world. However, Alexander IV did not have the power to destroy all of Russia's potential foes and he could not keep every single country that he smashed up down and disunited. The Tsar chose to invest an absurd amount of resources and personal attention to the total destruction of the United States and other North American countries into countless tiny statelets, the destruction of North American infrastructure, and then keeping the Americans down for decades later.

Alexander IV also destabilized Europe and its most militarily strong states at the same time. With the Russian military reformed to be as powerful as it is in the nightmares of NATO planners, America, Britain, and France in a state of civil war, and the other European states having previously neglected their militaries and suffering of the economic effects of the Collapse while Russia is somehow not affected, there would be no better time for Alexander IV to conquer Europe and end the threat of invasion from Europe. The New Russian Empire is so powerful that it can swiftly conquer the former Soviet republics, flip Bulgaria and Romania to Russia's sides, and then somehow fails to take Poland. Poland resisting the New Russian Empire largely alone for 50 years can only be explained as a massive mind boggling error in priorities on Alexander IV's part because the Poles estimated that their country would literally last for five days against a competently led Russian military.

In the Winter-20 wargame in early 2021, the Polish government tested the ability of the Polish military that was also armed with ordered but not yet delivered American made F-35s and HIMARS artillery systems to withstand a full assault alone by the forces of the Western Military District of Russia that assumed to be competently led and supplied. The Polish government had hoped that its armed forces would be able to resist Russia for 22 days but the wargame shown that Warsaw would be taken and Poland would collapse by day 5. If Alexander IV focused less on America and more on Europe, Poland would possibly have been crushed or at least suppressed enough to open the door to Germany. If Alexander IV could somehow still not subdue the Poles, he should have offered a Finlandization deal to Poland where Poland leaves the European Union to become a neutral buffer independent state instead of allowing the Poles to remain the EU. Surely the Polish would accept Finlandization over a several decades long struggle that would completely hollow out their country.

The failure of Alexander IV to defeat Poland prevented Russia from conquering Germany when it was still weak. I think the average Russian ultranationalist would have really liked for Russia to conquer Germany again. Conquering Germany would allow them to reenact the storming of the Reichstag building, destroy the European Union by ripping out its heart, secure the North European Plain, and end the possibility of a second Operation Barbarossa. Even when the other Western European countries eventually recovered and reunited themselves, they would be in no position to challenge Russia. Instead, Alexander IV allowed Germany, Poland, and the other remaining European Union states to recover and rearm themselves while Alexander IV was focused on North America. Now shortly after Alexander IV's death, the European Union is working on creating a true united European military. I would argue that a continent spanning union of European nations voluntarily working together to create a large standing unified European military designed to fight Russia is a bigger latent threat to Russia than a military alliance where many of its European members were complacent about their security and much of the alliance's firepower was on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean as was the case of NATO.

Alexander IV also failed to keep China disunited. Some Russian ultranationalists such as Dugin have called for China to be dismantled to the maximum degree possible because China represents a massive potential land threat to Russia even if China is sometimes an ally of convenience against America. China managed to reunify and to make things worse for Russia; it is a great power again willing to intervene in world affairs again. Now, there is a country with a billion people hostile to Russian interests sharing a massive land border with Russia. China may be largely contained for the moment but that is not a sure thing. This is a security nightmare for Russia.

What would the average Russian ultranationalist think of Alexander IV's actions in America? While they hate America and certainly wouldn't mind the destruction of the United States, they would view the amount of attention that Alexander IV devoted to North America as heavily excessive. The average Russian far-right ultranationalist seems to hate the United States largely due to left over Cold War animosity, because it is a source of "decadent and degenerate" liberal Western culture, and mainly because the United States is in the way of Russia's imperial ambitions. They would be content to merely destabilize the United States to the point that the Americans retreat to isolationism and is unable or unwilling to act against Russian interests. They wouldn't be as terrified of the idea of America reunifying as much Alexander IV was. Sure, a reunified America would be a potential threat to Russia, but it is on the other side of two oceans and would be much less of a threat if Russia destroyed or subverted its old allies in Europe and Asia.

In summary, Alexander IV's thinking does not actually match the thinking of the typical Russian far-right ultranationalist. He was massively fixated on the idea of destroying America and keeping the Americans down to the point of neglecting the traditional concerns of Russian foreign policy makers and ultranationalists. The average Russian far-right ultranationalist, if given the same amount of power that Alexander IV had in the Victoria Falls lore, would be more interested in securing Russian dominance over Europe and Asia than obsessively smashing the United States into thousands of tiny statelets.
 
Last edited:
I think Alexander's problem is an almost blinkered obsession with the USA. To be fair, the USA would have done much to earn such obsession; it is (well, was ITTL) the premier superpower of the globe and the main economic center of global commerce, has acted repeatedly against Russian interests and expansionism, and exercises a massive amount of influence in Europe, where Russia is trying to expand into. In fact, had Alexander's rise to power not been matched by a complete breakdown in US internal cohesion and had Rumford had an accident before he created the Christian Marines, Alexander's attempt to recreate the Russian Empire would have been met by massive US response and NATO gearing up for war. That would undoubtedly have put the kibosh on his ambitions.

Admittedly, China and Europe should have been higher on his list of targets, but the USA was the biggest "foe", so he had to deal with them first. And ever since they collapsed, he knows he can never let America reform or he will never get a second chance to subdue them.
 
TBH Alexander's utter hatred towards America comes down to...we need it for the quest to begin. Without Russia holding Victoria's shaking hands, there easily would've been a successor capable of destroying Victoria....and Victoria's performances in the past don't really indicate otherwise. Rumford was the cherry on top of a monumental effort by the Russians to start a civil war in the New American Confederation; Victoria didn't do that on its own. Cascadia was a Russo-Japanese affair in terms of actual fighting, and Victoria did diddly-squat in Cali except feed cannon fodder to entrenched positions. Victoria has never fought a peer opponent and won on its own; they either beat their chest in triumph over Russian operations, failed terribly but rode on the back of Russian victory, or got their shit kicked in so terribly that their entire army died and they fell into civil war. Neither have they succeeded in large-scale sabotage; again, they claim victory over what Russia's done. Victoria needs Russian patronage to be "credible" as any sort of power, and to keep polities it can't reach from forming into threats. Without Russia, this wouldn't be a "build yourself up to murder Victoria" quest, it would be one of those "fulfill the plan" quests but about rebuilding America post-Victoria
 
Like I've said: working around Lind's canon is the big constraint on my ability to credibly worldbuild this thing. Of course Alexander doesn't conform to modern fads with Russian ultranationalists; he is the result of me consciously letting go of any hope that I could make that happen and just rolling with what Lind gave me.

And step one is the desperate, overriding obsession with dismantling America and salting the earth such that Victoria can dominate the ashes.
 
An unpleasant thought: The strongest rival to the new Tsar made a very public appearance in our territory immediately beforehand, and has not been seen leaving. We haven't even checked enough to honestly say she isn't in our pockets somewhere. If Katerina turns up dead anywhere near us, that's all the excuse Nikolai needs to swear vengeance for his "beloved" sister. If he doesn't know where she is, he's likely to find some excuse to come knocking on our door looking.
Folks, we now likely face the Bear's direct attention.
 
An unpleasant thought: The strongest rival to the new Tsar made a very public appearance in our territory immediately beforehand, and has not been seen leaving. We haven't even checked enough to honestly say she isn't in our pockets somewhere. If Katerina turns up dead anywhere near us, that's all the excuse Nikolai needs to swear vengeance for his "beloved" sister. If he doesn't know where she is, he's likely to find some excuse to come knocking on our door looking.
Folks, we now likely face the Bear's direct attention.

I feel like her security presence would be enough of a give away. I get she may be independent, but she wouldn't be moronic enough to go to America without bodyguards (and if I recall from canon omakes, she has a contingent that are loyal to her).

Also I'm 99% sure she vanished into the smoke

Also also, Poptart is lawful evil, not true evil and I don't think it's in their brand to throw a hyperpower at us without a chance to potentially avert collision first
 
Last edited:
An unpleasant thought: The strongest rival to the new Tsar made a very public appearance in our territory immediately beforehand, and has not been seen leaving. We haven't even checked enough to honestly say she isn't in our pockets somewhere. If Katerina turns up dead anywhere near us, that's all the excuse Nikolai needs to swear vengeance for his "beloved" sister. If he doesn't know where she is, he's likely to find some excuse to come knocking on our door looking.
Folks, we now likely face the Bear's direct attention.
I hadn't intended for this to be a point of confusion. Katerina is gone from the Commonwealth, nearly a year hence, with the conclusion of the local conference.
Does the current Tsar have any prospective heirs?
Several, some of which he's even glad exist.
 
So just to clear things up, Alexander was destabilizing everyone, albeit perhaps too heavily focused on America, and while he has worked to recreate the former Soviet Bloc, his inability to hold onto Poland or move further into Western Europe is a consequence of his army being stretched thin from being sent around the world to prop up various puppet regimes. His narrow minded focus on America, while a bad decision, is a realistically bad and an understandable decision as he probably saw it as the biggest threat to his global ambitions.
 
Last edited:
So on the subject, how much do you want to bet the Prussian remnants are trying to gin up support for another land war to claim germany and create a new Prussian reich?
 
Victoria needs Russian patronage to be "credible" as any sort of power, and to keep polities it can't reach from forming into threats. Without Russia, this wouldn't be a "build yourself up to murder Victoria" quest, it would be one of those "fulfill the plan" quests but about rebuilding America post-Victoria

The problem I don't see any difference between Tsar Alexander and Victoria, because for that type of nationlist trend to occur would be absurd as Victoria...at which point why have Russia at all and just have Victoria more military capable? If you're going to stretch the premise to include actual challanges for the quest, Victoria is right there
 
The problem I don't see any difference between Tsar Alexander and Victoria, because for that type of nationlist trend to occur would be absurd as Victoria...at which point why have Russia at all and just have Victoria more military capable? If you're going to stretch the premise to include actual challanges for the quest, Victoria is right there
Because Victoria's territorial extent and military capabilities are firmly established, in great detail, by William Lind, the author who came up with the Victorians in the first place.

What's going on in Russia is left vague and blurry, but what's going on in Victoria is described too precisely to be altered for the sake of the quest's narrative.

So there's a need to force-fit an explanation for how, somehow, a Russian autocrat styling himself "the Czar" could have taken over Russia by 2030 or so. And how he could be in a position to provide meaningful assistance to a far-right secessionist movement whose plan was to turn fucking New England of all places into a retroculturalist dystopia. And how this could somehow cascade into the entire United States falling apart, all the successor states apart from Victoria being shattered and destroyed, and no successors capable of smashing the Victorians to avenge the fallen showing up for at least a generation or so.

Because all of that is, roughly speaking, the core canonical plot of the novel. Even after you strip out a lot of the triumphalist bullshit as being the result of an unreliable narrator/author, Poptart still needs Victoria to exist, and to have been aided in its successes primarily by Russians.

You need all of that as the minimal baseline to write a quest where "Victoria Falls," because you need it for Victoria to exist in recognizable form in the first place.
 
Yes they were, the Kaiser told Kraft to run for office.
Is that actually canon? Because justifying running for office with "Well, a Hohenzoller told me so" is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard. At least get your orders from the actual Tsar instead of the weird nobility larping as a German government.
 
Is that actually canon? Because justifying running for office with "Well, a Hohenzoller told me so" is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard. At least get your orders from the actual Tsar instead of the weird nobility larping as a German government.
Yes, that was a thing that actually happened. Apparently it was some garbage about Kraft being a 'pRoPEr pRUsSiAn SOldIeR' and thus unless ordered to do so by his 'king', would have been in a conflict of interest if he'd become Governor of Maine. It was dumb.
 
Yes, that was a thing that actually happened. Apparently it was some garbage about Kraft being a 'pRoPEr pRUsSiAn SOldIeR' and thus unless ordered to do so by his 'king', would have been in a conflict of interest if he'd become Governor of Maine. It was dumb.
I was actually asking about quest canon, but I have phrased this ambiguously. Still, really dumb. Let's ask a random monarch someplace in Moskau if I should become a high-ranking official in a country, while he knows nothing about the entire affair. Wouldn't want a conflict of interest between Maine and a country that doesn't exist. Unless the Tsar decided to make Kaliningrad into the domain of the Prussian king again, which seems rather unlikely.
Not as dumb as Kraft wearing a Pickelhaube within a tank though. That was exceptionally stupid.
 
Last edited:
In quest canon, we'll probably never know if it actually happened or not.

Kraft died before Rumford. And Rumford obviously told a lot of ridiculous lies in his memoirs, and they were subsequently redacted heavily by the remaining CMC factions that survived the purge of Rumford's personal loyalists at the hands of the Spetznaz.

It's entirely possible that Kraft wasn't quite as much of a delusional idiot about 19th century Prussian romanticism as Rumford makes him out to be, but no one would presume to contradict the authorized autobiography of an official HERO OF THE NORTHERN CONFEDERATION whose rivals all conveniently died and got unpersoned before him and who was then killed off by the state's foreign backers after he became too much of a liability.
 
Here's what it says in the timeline
2036: Maine attempts to replace Governor Bowen with Bill Kraft, the CMC's steadfast ally and the man responsible for much of the NC's international contacts! He refuses. Rumford then asks Father Dimitri to petition the Tsar to intercede with the exiled Kaiser, the head of the House of Hohenzollern, asking him to order Kraft to assume the position of Maine Governor. The Kaiser agrees (how kind of him), and Kraft assumes his post.

Recognizing that Kraft's loyalty to the Hohenzollern's head (who is the Tsar's puppet, remember) is easily exploitable, Alexander orders Kraft, through Dimitri, to assume control of the NC government in the wake of the Moderates' defeat.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top