Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

[4WheelSword]

thread policy Discussion of politics that does not directly relate to the Quest or to Quest votes are banned from hereon out. This thread policy will be enforced by the Moderation team. Do not ignore it.

 

[CrabMonarchy]

Why does he have a cat ear sticking out of his forehead? Was the Punisher turned into a Neko while I wasn't looking?

fasquardon

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Sanna Marin donated hers, to support the Ukrainian cause. Tactical cat ears are a valuable tool for hearing Russian tanks from far away.

Spoiler: context

Some posters on the Finnish equivalent of 4chan made up a rumor that Sanna Marin, prime minister of Finland, edits images of herself as a catgirl in her free time. This was meant to make her look bad but honestly it would be based as fuck if it were true, and r/noncredibledefense has made it into a subreddit meme.

 

[PainRack]

You're misinterpreting the extra bold-faced text. This is a modification to the national spirit caused by circumstances- namely, that we set in motion a sequence of events that could not fully be foreseen at game start, but which incentivized a second migration wave.

It does not deterministically require that every round of refugee movements in America wind up mainly on our doorstep.

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True. But we offering food, shelter, security and we winning.

That equates to they coming here to seek a better life.

 

[rikalous]

Sanna Marin donated hers, to support the Ukrainian cause. Tactical cat ears are a valuable tool in hearing Russian tanks from far away.

Spoiler: context

Some posters on the Finnish equivalent of 4chan made up a rumor that Sanna Marin, prime minister of Finland, edits images of herself as a catgirl in her free time. This was meant to make her look bad but honestly it would be based as fuck if it were true, and r/noncredibledefense has made it into a subreddit meme.

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This brings me to a realization. It was mentioned that the Commonwealth made international news for beating Victoria, because people who don't have to personally worry about the Vicks still think they're fuckers. Word of the Declaration's unveiling is presumably also going to get around. We're still quite a small fish by global standards, but people interested in such things at least know we exist and have pulled off some frankly bonkers feats.

Which is to say that in certain corners of the 2070s internet Sara Johnson's badassery is being memed.

 

[Simon_Jester]

True. But we offering food, shelter, security and we winning.

That equates to they coming here to seek a better life.

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Yes, but all those things would probably be true without the Population Boom national spirit. Just to a lesser degree because we wouldn't have had that first wave of refugees at game start.

If everything else about our national performance had been the same, we'd still have gotten the second wave of refugees who are coming into the Commonwealth because we beat the Vicks.

 

[Cyberphilosipher]

So I'm just imagining Harry Maxwell and his American Anime friends from a while back making forum stuff involving the War and Trolling people about it.

Anyone up for something like that?

 

[Ikacprzak]

So what does education look like in Victoria? I remember Rumford visiting a one-room school house, and considering his love of plausible deniability and his dislike of standardization, education is probably less about knowledge and more about indoctrination and propaganda, with any actual knowledge limited to adhere to retroculture as well as monitored for any hint of "Cultural Marxism".

 

[Tabascoheath]

How red is the little red school house? Well after we killed all the people with teaching degrees pretty red at head height.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

So what does education look like in Victoria? I remember Rumford visiting a one-room school house, and considering his love of plausible deniability and his dislike of standardization, education is probably less about knowledge and more about indoctrination and propaganda, with any actual knowledge limited to adhere to retroculture as well as monitored for any hint of "Cultural Marxism".

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I don't really recall whether or not I've already answered this, so I'm announcing a +5 bonus to the Department of Education action as a bounty for whoever can scrape the thread and find any statements I've made.

I do recall that higher education in Victoria is access-restricted and heavily censored, focusing on an old-fashioned education in the Classics and emphasizing whatever strain of Retroculture happens to predominate at the moment. Also, Russian.

 

[picklepikkl]

I don't really recall whether or not I've already answered this, so I'm announcing a +5 bonus to the Department of Education action as a bounty for whoever can scrape the thread and find any statements I've made.

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I am pretty confident you have not made definitive statements of your own, after scraping the thread. I found this:

His mind, absurdly, drifts back to his days in the Christian Classics School of Maine, learning the art of ancient military history, at the feet of men who studied at the feet of men and so on all the way back to the greats of yore. "One more such victory," his professor had once quoted, "and we are undone!"

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And I found this excerpt from a writeup someone did that you responded to with encouraging noises but did not threadmark:

There is no record of how many convents or monasteries can be found within Victoria's borders. However, it is known that monks and nuns respectively serve as teachers to male and female students within Church-run schools. Most of these schools are run out of local churches or church-owned property, but various larger institutions seem to serve as reform schools. Others appear to sometimes serve as institutions of higher learning, though this seems to conflict with the recognized existence of a small number of State-run colleges. Beyond that, there are only assumptions. One safe assumption is some monasteries and convents are running seminary schools. Though how graduates of these seminaries enter the actual clergy is still unknown.

Of the local churches themselves, they function first and foremost as churches. The local populace is expected to attend service at least once a week. In locations with a higher population density, there is almost always an attached school. Most of these schools do not appear to provide more than primary education and no known schools provide post-secondary education. Most importantly, churches serve as the center of their communities. As stated in other sections, due to Victoria's widely publicized right-libertarian values, routine government involvement of any kind in the daily life of the citizenry is seen as something to be avoided. Thus, even local governments do not offer much beyond the most basic utilities and services, such as electricity and mail. Instead, Victorians look to their churches for community organizations and events.

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But I cannot find a writeup about the state of Victorian education either in your writing or in canonical sidestories.

 

[Lightwhispers]

Here's another bit from a canon omake: (regarding libraries, which the Victorians - as morons - may not consider part of the education system proper)

Next, there is literature. Victoria has a love-hate relationship with libraries. On one hand, they are a part of Kraft's vision of the ideal small town. On the other hand, they are collections of Cultural-Marxist thought. As such while each Victorian town has its own library and many have existed since their town's founding. Outside of Victoria libraries are both common and short-lived as visiting Victorian observers would inevitably find fault with the locals for not having one or for having one with suspect books contained within. The latter of which would of course necessitate much of the library's stock being burned. After which the Victorian observers would generously offer to replace their books for a "small" fee. Luckily, such an approach, while encouraged, was never universally applied across Victoria's sphere of influence. Many times, Victorians had more interesting subjects over which to persecute people over than the contents of books the locals may or may not have hidden away. Regardless, printing presses are rare and Victorian-sourced reading material has always been acceptable. This most often takes the form of Victorian textbooks, newspapers, and magazines. The Victorian government is more than happy to charge people for the privileged of reading its propaganda and either not knowing any better, in regards to Victorians, or lacking better options, in regards to many smaller communities, people do pay.

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And, of course, this omake discusses occurences in Victorian academia while not actually saying much about it other than it exists, and has... rather cutthroat means of resolving political disagreements.

 

[Red Rationalist]

I don't really recall whether or not I've already answered this, so I'm announcing a +5 bonus to the Department of Education action as a bounty for whoever can scrape the thread and find any statements I've made.

I do recall that higher education in Victoria is access-restricted and heavily censored, focusing on an old-fashioned education in the Classics and emphasizing whatever strain of Retroculture happens to predominate at the moment. Also, Russian.

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The lore screen contains a section on the purging of intellectuals and new curriculum in 2036.

Having purged his political opposition, re-enslaved the African Americans, deported the Hispanic Americans, and left the rest of the population starving and dependent on him for information and protection, Kraft now moves on the intellectuals. He does indeed do this as described above, on live television. Those who object draw the Christian Marines' attention...but by now, most know better. The reaction is fearful silence. A university meant to teach the important things in life (classical educations, Retroculture theory, Russian, etc.) opens in the Ivy League's place. The state is now secure.

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[Ikacprzak]

So Poptart Prodigy can answer this whenever, but I want to eventually find out what happens to Katerina. In a different genre, her attempt to retake her kingdom from her incompetent brother would make for a compelling story, however here if she's alive, she's probably trying to figure out where she can hide that won't turn her over immediately, or if Russia threatens enough.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Whenever may be a very, very long time.

 

[Ikacprzak]

I can wait.

 

[BoredStudent1414]

@PoptartProdigy While the Russians were not willing to start the Second Winter War or the Second Great Northern War with the Nordic countries in the background lore, did the Russians seize the islands of Gotland and/or the demilitarized Åland Islands in the Baltic Sea from Sweden and Finland respectively? In a world where the New Russian Empire is a military hyperpower that can overthrow nuclear armed states and in where the European Union is often reluctant to challenge Russia, taking those islands and putting Russian anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles on them would be a good way of further asserting Russian control over the Baltic Sea. It would be less dangerous than starting a full-scale invasion of Finland.

If the Russians have not already seized the islands, perhaps taking the islands now would be a good way if dangerous way for the new Tsar to poke the Europeans in the eye while they are busy creating a true European army.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

I think not. The EU might have been reluctant, but in a world like this, going after those would have meant a full-scale war with at least Finland, and the idea always has been that Russia was always saving Finland et. al. for later, until abruptly they realized they couldn't.

 

[Ikacprzak]

So if conquering Victoria means Russia loses its main agent in America, my question is what do you think they'll do as a plan b in that circumstance? Finding willing puppets in local areas and supplying them will probably be far harder than it was the first time. At best they might try suspiciously well equipped raiding parties and the like.

 

[Simon_Jester]

So if conquering Victoria means Russia loses its main agent in America, my question is what do you think they'll do as a plan b in that circumstance? Finding willing puppets in local areas and supplying them will probably be far harder than it was the first time. At best they might try suspiciously well equipped raiding parties and the like.

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Since conquering Victoria is likely to take 5-10 years in a best case scenario, what Russia does is going to depend heavily on the overall strategic situation Russia faces by the time that happens.

In short, how China chooses to behave or what the EU does will matter a lot, and we have zero control over that.

 

[Red Rationalist]

So if conquering Victoria means Russia loses its main agent in America, my question is what do you think they'll do as a plan b in that circumstance? Finding willing puppets in local areas and supplying them will probably be far harder than it was the first time. At best they might try suspiciously well equipped raiding parties and the like.

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I don't think there is a "Plan B" for Russia. The complete defeat of Victoria occured a few months before the previous Tsar's death (the one who actually knew his stuff in geostrategy), so I don't think he had a contingency plan for the recent developments. The primary plan for a situation like the present one, the formation of a pan-american alliance and the independence of the NCR and the NCR joining this alliance was simply "Don't let it happen". The present situation is a result of geostrategy failing spectaculary and you seldom make plans for the cases of spectacular failure.

What will Russia likely attempt to do when Victoria falls? Flail around ineptly IMO, given my general opinion of the New Tsar. But in case of a russian leadership with an understanding of subtle methods of influence, I can think of a couple things they might try.
One thing is to try to form a counter-alliance against revivalists, using polities who don't want to join the revivalists because of various reasons and giving them military aid. In effect, establishing a quasi-sphere for Russia that takes up the mantle from Victoria, similar to what you outline. I don't think logistics will be much of an issue, provided we are talking about polities and the Southern Seaboard, close to the Russian Caribbean Fleet. While I think there are some authoritarian polities willing to join a sphere opposing Revivalists, as well as some democratic polities who see their interests as heavily diverging from the quite centralized model of the Revivalists, aiding them isn't easy to do. Russia is really, really, insanely unpopular in North America, so any cooperation with them would need to be done quietly.
Another option would be using soft power to increase internal divisions in the Revivalist alliance. Influence some key figures, fund some "totally grass-root groups concerned with the direction of revivalism" and make sure some of the big players don't see eye to eye on things. Try to increase the divisions so progress on integration grinds to a halt, ensure that internal blocks in the Revivalists form and, assuming you do it well enough and get lucky, the alliance splints into multiple, smaller alliances. This method depends heavily on internal divisions forming, as well as being able to push public opinion in the right direction.
The third method is based on accepting North America will be lost for Russia, sooner or later and pulling South America into the Russian sphere. Form a South American block allied with Russia and ensure endless proxy wars with the Revivalists to slow any rebuilding and integration down. Make us bleed for any attempt to consolidate in North America, build our power in Central America and keep us out of South America completly. Even if we win, we will suffer wounds. And if we give up, we will be a weaker power for it. You won't prevent the USA nominally reforming, but you can keep them from the major player club for much longer than you otherwise could. Doing this heavily depends on South American majors being willing to draw closer to Russia, which is a topic we have barely any information on.

 

[Night_stalker]

I don't think there is a "Plan B" for Russia. The complete defeat of Victoria occured a few months before the previous Tsar's death (the one who actually knew his stuff in geostrategy), so I don't think he had a contingency plan for the recent developments. The primary plan for a situation like the present one, the formation of a pan-american alliance and the independence of the NCR and the NCR joining this alliance was simply "Don't let it happen". The present situation is a result of geostrategy failing spectaculary and you seldom make plans for the cases of spectacular failure.

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It also relies on having a strategy, and the New Tsar following it.

I'd bet cash that the Russians never planned for something like this, because all their experts and such never felt it could happen. Victoria was the best armed and "trained" army on the continent, there was never gonna be a rival. Hell, some of them likely invested into Victorian industries to make cash. So they likely just did some basic drawing up of plans and never updated them.

 

[Red Rationalist]

It also relies on having a strategy, and the New Tsar following it.

I'd bet cash that the Russians never planned for something like this, because all their experts and such never felt it could happen. Victoria was the best armed and "trained" army on the continent, there was never gonna be a rival. Hell, some of them likely invested into Victorian industries to make cash. So they likely just did some basic drawing up of plans and never updated them.

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We agree in regards to the to contingency plans. However, assuming the Victorian army was the best army on the Continent was wrong. Ignoring the occupying forces from Russia and Japan, the best army would have been the NCR, with their considerable amount of equipment and training. The NCR gaining independence was likely the worst case scenario russian analysists considered, with the contingencies hinging on the NCR staying isolated on the Pacific Coast. The Victorian army was never really capable of launching an expedition against an army giving considerable resistance, not with their absolutely laughable logistics. Their true strength was keeping small, disorganized polities in line. The solution for this weakness was to simply prevent any sufficiently organized state by overt and subtle means. This strategy was successful until recently, but I do think the Tsar was unhappy with the victorian deficiencies and just had to work around them.

 

[Ikacprzak]

So I imagine Russia knew it was always a possibility that someone would come along and be able to stand up to Victoria, and so they probably planned accordingly, like I said, look for measures outside of direct involvement, and view a divided America as worth whatever bill they have to pay.

 

[Simon_Jester]

So I imagine Russia knew it was always a possibility that someone would come along and be able to stand up to Victoria, and so they probably planned accordingly...

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Well yes, but they've already dealt with that. Repeatedly.

Victoria played a pivotal role in ensuring that the "New Confederacy" or whatever it was actually being called by people who weren't KKK-ers would fall apart into civil disorder and not begin to re-coalesce for a generation or two. Victoria at least helped bring about the decline of the Pacific Republic/NCR into the form of a Russian satellite state.

The most important tool in Russia's toolbox for the situation "what if an American successor state strong enough to challenge Victoria arises" is "give Victoria steroids until they can beat down the threat." What went wrong for Russia here is...

...

1) California poisoned some of the steroids, by sabotaging the Victorian air force.

2) The Victorians failed to prepare for war. They didn't learn how to properly use even some of the capabilities they had, let alone learn what other capabilities they might need. Steroids alone will not win you a contest if you don't train.

3) The opposition proved unexpectedly professional and competent, particularly in the field of force projection, something no American successor state except the NCR and Victoria had ever been effective at after about 2045. Steroids can make you into a Hercules, but if the enemy can get you in a headlock anyway, that matters a lot less.

4) The Victorians went into the operation with a flawed operational plan (dividing their forces and failing to recognize when their diversionary attack had failed) and flawed logistical capabilities which the Russians had failed to address previously, or worse yet, coddled.

5) The Victorians underwent a severe case of state fragmentation and collapse immediately after the Detroit Campaign, at which point all previous efforts to steroid-ify the Vicks were nullified by the Victorians setting themselves on fire.

...

But the point is, if we look at past precedent, the Russian strategy for how to deal with a threat to their Plan A has, historically, not been to have a Plan B. It's been to reinforce Plan A to make it more effective.

I don't know how they'd cope if Victoria were outright destroyed as a state... But realistically, to get there from here we're going to have to batter through a lot of Russian efforts to continue propping Victoria up.

 

[Red Rationalist]

Well yes, but they've already dealt with that. Repeatedly.

Victoria played a pivotal role in ensuring that the "New Confederacy" or whatever it was actually being called by people who weren't KKK-ers would fall apart into civil disorder and not begin to re-coalesce for a generation or two. Victoria at least helped bring about the decline of the Pacific Republic/NCR into the form of a Russian satellite state.

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I would disagree here. Victorian contribution to destroying the "New American Confederation" amount to going south, meeting some guys, using a nuclear bomb on Atlanta and going away, whistling happy about the atrocity just committed. So Victoria literally just used a nuclear bomb randomly, while the actual work was done by Russian agents carefully supporting sympathetic reactionaries in the south. While using a nuclear bomb did destabilize the south, it also was not part of the Russian plan. The Tsar considered this whole affair to be an utter failure and thought about executing Rumford's handler for this. Randomly dropping a nuke isn't really a good contribution.

The Victorian involvement in combating the NCR amounts to sending military commanders and occupation forces. Those attaches fucked up so badly Victoria replaced the entire war with a fictional war in their propaganda. Also, massacres and crimes against humanity. Given the performance of Victoria against the CFC, which just had a single division of old military around, I don't think Victorian military performance fighting against a nearly pre-collapse military ever rose above "Hötzendorf during the Carpathian Offensive".
I don't think you could describe Victorian contributions to those ventures as "helpful". In my opinion, Victoria was just completely unsuited to wage a war against an opponent with an actual military, but they were able to keep the the North-Eastern polities in line. They are and were unsuited for smashing emerging states with a decent army, but they could care of the hundreds of small interventions regarding minor polities, which helps Russia a bit.

What went wrong for Russia here is...
1) California poisoned some of the steroids, by sabotaging the Victorian air force.

2) The Victorians failed to prepare for war. They didn't learn how to properly use even some of the capabilities they had, let alone learn what other capabilities they might need. Steroids alone will not win you a contest if you don't train.

3) The opposition proved unexpectedly professional and competent, particularly in the field of force projection, something no American successor state except the NCR and Victoria had ever been effective at after about 2045. Steroids can make you into a Hercules, but if the enemy can get you in a headlock anyway, that matters a lot less.

4) The Victorians went into the operation with a flawed operational plan (dividing their forces and failing to recognize when their diversionary attack had failed) and flawed logistical capabilities which the Russians had failed to address previously, or worse yet, coddled.

5) The Victorians underwent a severe case of state fragmentation and collapse immediately after the Detroit Campaign, at which point all previous efforts to steroid-ify the Vicks were nullified by the Victorians setting themselves on fire.

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I would generally agree with you here, just two disagreements.
Point 3)+4) We weren't really that good at force projection, we just mostly sat around a port and received resupply from our ships. Operating defensively from a position with good, natural transport ways isn't much of a challenge logisticswise. The lacking logistical capabilities on the Victorian side were not so much caused by bad equipment and bad doctrine itself, but by failing to grasp the effects on enemy naval power on your ability to resupply. Five divisions didn't receive any supply because the CFC navy sunk any supply convoy heading their way. While the logistics were terribly, the key failure IMO was Victoria making themselves dependent on a method of supply delivery that was unavailable to them. A competent military would probably cancel/delay a naval landing after your fleet in the theater was sunk in your harbor, but the Victorians continued with the plan.

Point 1) Also, not sure how much the Russian planning to buff Victoria was giving Victoria air power steroids, since Victoria failed to effectively utilize air power for anything whatsoever. They had total air supremacy for most of the campaign and just took pot-shots at the army and let aircraft die to MANPADs. Also, Victoria failed to recognize deliberately sabotaged fighter munitions, which speaks volumes about the general reliability of their munitions. It doesn't matter how technically superior your flying artillery is when you have no idea how to use it. I would guess the munition shipments from the NCR were more of a routine resupply prior to conflicts than a deliberate attempt to attempt to strengthen them.
IMO the primary way for Russia to buff Victoria would be sending in special forces, giving Victoria intel from Recon drones and putting a Russian military attache effectively in charge of the war, so somebody who doesn't think "We must vanquish the Witchcraft of Logistics by being tough, hard Spartans" does the battle planning. Russia likely considered us to not be worth the effort during the Erie war, so Victoria tried to do it with their usual methods.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

I would generally agree with you here, just two disagreements.
Point 3)+4) We weren't really that good at force projection, we just mostly sat around a port and received resupply from our ships. Operating defensively from a position with good, natural transport ways isn't much of a challenge logisticswise. The lacking logistical capabilities on the Victorian side were not so much caused by bad equipment and bad doctrine itself, but by failing to grasp the effects on enemy naval power on your ability to resupply. Five divisions didn't receive any supply because the CFC navy sunk any supply convoy heading their way. While the logistics were terribly, the key failure IMO was Victoria making themselves dependent on a method of supply delivery that was unavailable to them. A competent military would probably cancel/delay a naval landing after your fleet in the theater was sunk in your harbor, but the Victorians continued with the plan.

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The thing that was notable about your logistical proficiency was mostly being able to put the greater part of 100,000 people (including support personnel; very much not all frontline combatants) several states away and ready to fight in a season with enough supplies to winter there while the waterborne lines of communication froze over without starving your host city to the point of revolt. And you did this with a collection of divisions that were, effectively, welded-together militia.

And then, after that winter, you launched off from that city and successfully launched an amphibious assault against your enemy's coastline.

Your logistics are unimpressive by any modern standard, but by Collapse standards, they are exceptional.

I would guess the munition shipments from the NCR were more of a routine resupply prior to conflicts than a deliberate attempt to attempt to strengthen them.

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There was a surge prior to the war. The Victorians ordered enough materiel to sustain high-intensity combat (in their estimation), and California was ordered to expedite it. That's how Cali knew about the invasion in enough detail to be useful to you when they came with their offer.