I'm an idiot. I should have suggested that Usagi use Moon Tiara Stardust on the whole area since it would likely have freed both the youma and the Uzaina from their corruption and probably knocked out the Zakenna hiding in the shadow. Gah! How did I forget such a ridiculously appropriate spell for the occasion? It was perfect for the situation. :(
We've tried Stardust on youma before to no effect, and the youma was what we were focused on for the last vote since Uzaina was going down without Moon's help. I don't think you'd have gotten much traction.
Cool I was dead wrong.

So this next bit depends on how strong the fusion of Kintoleski and Zakenna is. If their prowess scores just get added then it's going to be something like Prowess 54, which is bad. In that case Neptune and Uranus are in serious trouble. I don't want to let Poisony go, and we might not need to, but if this is as bad as I fear we're going to really need Jupiter to pin this guy down for a Moon Healing Escalation. Or better yet a Moon Healing, Terra Healing, Exorcism, Pretty Cure^2 ultimate combo attack. It's not like we can't afford to gang up on him.

Edit: And according to others this guy has a super form on top of all that which is just... great. Really great.
Beating the general pops the Zakenna, so Jupiter's time might still be best spent doing the Puny God bit.
 
So, Moon exorcism Healing Escalation or just have Naru chew on his head and try to go 3 for 3 on Zakennas eaten?
 
Hmmmm.
Do we just off Poisony to free Kinto, or try to switch Naru to help Rei with Poisony as Makoto goes and punches Kinto?
I'm tempted to keep trying to capture Poisony, but i'll admit it is probably not the best course of action.
But on the other hand, i am not sure i want to tell Makoto to just pop her head off or something.
 
Cool I was dead wrong.

So this next bit depends on how strong the fusion of Kintoleski and Zakenna is. If their prowess scores just get added then it's going to be something like Prowess 54, which is bad. In that case Neptune and Uranus are in serious trouble.
I suspect that Zakenna possession doesn't grant a straight Prowess increase. It takes inanimate garbage and gives it a Prowess in the '20s, but Prowess isn't always additive like that.

Hmm, curse the sudden yet inevitable betrayal. I really do feel for the guy, and I'm hoping that Usagi using Moon Tiara Stardust (which is designed to break possessions like this) on him will release him from both the Zakenna and his master.
Fortunately, Usagi is closer to them than they are to Poisony, so she'll be in range to use the AoE spell. And I very much doubt that Poisony will see that coming, especially since she's been seeing Usagi mix it up with close combat.
And I'm an idiot. I should have suggested that Usagi use Moon Tiara Stardust on the whole area since it would likely have freed both the youma and the Uzaina from their corruption and probably knocked out the Zakenna hiding in the shadow. Gah! How did I forget such a ridiculously appropriate spell for the occasion? It was perfect for the situation. :(
My only consolation is that everyone else forgot it too.
I don't think Moon Tiara Stardust is enough to purify youma. Possession victims who are still human, sure, but when the corruption has gotten into the actual fiber of your being I think it takes something heavier.

Healing Escalations looks like a very popular type of spell. Maybe we see a Neptune one.
We'd have to give Michiru the False Moon Stick that Naru's been using, and there'd be some risk (rapidly increasing with multiple castings) of her accidentally overstressing and breaking the thing by overchanneling through it. It's not designed to take the full power of a planetary magic well.

Beating the general pops the Zakenna, so Jupiter's time might still be best spent doing the Puny God bit.
Also a good idea. We tried diplomacy, it doesn't seem to be working.

Hmmmm.
Do we just off Poisony to free Kinto, or try to switch Naru to help Rei with Poisony as Makoto goes and punches Kinto?
I'm tempted to keep trying to capture Poisony, but i'll admit it is probably not the best course of action.
But on the other hand, i am not sure i want to tell Makoto to just pop her head off or something.
I don't think you have to kill a dark general to defeat the Zakenna. Just beat the shit out of them.

Then again, I could be wrong.

Of course, defeating Poisony permanently would be a huge boon to Cures Black and White, so I don't exactly want to rule that out.
 
"Hey, what do you guys normally do with your dark generals?"

"Black thunder!" "White thunder!"

"...Cool. I'll just hold her right here while you do your speech."
 
I don't think you have to kill a dark general to defeat the Zakenna. Just beat the shit out of them.

Then again, I could be wrong.

Of course, defeating Poisony permanently would be a huge boon to Cures Black and White, so I don't exactly want to rule that out.
I have no idea where the line between "knockout" and "kill" would be, so any speedy (preferably one round) defeat would almost certainly require deadly force to be safe.

I don't generally mind deadly force, in fact i would probably be the first one to argue in favour of using it when going into combat.
Just iffy on killing someone who technically is already subdued.
I doubt she could actually pose a threat to us at the moment apart from the whole posessed zakenna situation.

I still migh end up in favour of just ending her, i would not be happy about it, but it is a potential solution on the table.
 
I have no idea where the line between "knockout" and "kill" would be, so any speedy (preferably one round) defeat would almost certainly require deadly force to be safe.
Tagging the general with Marble Screw works in the show whether or not the general comes back later. If Jupiter has to beat her without that, I'm not comfortable ruling out lethal force for a general when we've already killed a lot of youma. It feels like privileging the privileged.
 
I don't generally mind deadly force, in fact i would probably be the first one to argue in favour of using it when going into combat.
Just iffy on killing someone who technically is already subdued.
I doubt she could actually pose a threat to us at the moment apart from the whole posessed zakenna situation.
The other thing is that, if Kinto is anything to go by, the dark generals are uncomfortably close to being both children (because Kinto is probably only a few years old) and slaves (because Kinto can't leave his master without dying).
 
Different Pretty Cure shows' dark generals can vary SIGNIFICANTLY in motivation, characteristics, age, existential origin, and other properties. Generalizing from one show's dark generals to another is unwise.

Just because Kintsoleki was created out of raw supernatural force a few years ago doesn't mean Poisony was, for instance, and just because Poisony presumably can't outlive the Dark King who rules over her doesn't mean that Kintsoleki couldn't outlive his evil overlord.

Tagging the general with Marble Screw works in the show whether or not the general comes back later. If Jupiter has to beat her without that, I'm not comfortable ruling out lethal force for a general when we've already killed a lot of youma. It feels like privileging the privileged.
Part of it is that a lot of mook monsters in settings like ours really do seem to have a lot less in the way of free will and general grasp of reality, to the point where until we got Moon Healing Escalation there just wasn't a good alternative. Moon Healing Escalation is (and this is true in canon) a big step up in less-lethal anti-youma options, compared to Moon Tiara Action which just straight-up rips them apart.
 
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We've tried Stardust on youma before to no effect, and the youma was what we were focused on for the last vote since Uzaina was going down without Moon's help. I don't think you'd have gotten much traction.

I don't think Moon Tiara Stardust is enough to purify youma. Possession victims who are still human, sure, but when the corruption has gotten into the actual fiber of your being I think it takes something heavier.
Since the youma was quite clearly not in control of itself (as was mentioned by several people) my point was that it would have removed whatever Cendrillion had placed on it to force it to suicidal lengths and we could have had Usagi convince it to stop fighting. It may have still been a youma, but it would have been a free youma instead of controlled. Given the reaction when Terra Healing Escalation hit, that is proof that it was being controlled and that when the control was gone it had no desire to fight us. So Moon Tiara Stardust would have been the best solution, especially since it is an AoE and so it could have been cast immediately, since she only needs one hand to cast it where Moon Healing Escalation takes two.
In any case, setting aside the question of how useful it would have been at the start, it is the best spell to use now for obvious reasons. It covers a wide area so Usagi doesn't even need to leave the roof where she is now, and is designed to disrupt possession and corruptive magic, all of which are Poisony's arsenal. It could actually be said to be the natural counter to her powers as the Sonic attack was to the glass sisters (we just need to make it permanent next time).
 
Tagging the general with Marble Screw works in the show whether or not the general comes back later. If Jupiter has to beat her without that, I'm not comfortable ruling out lethal force for a general when we've already killed a lot of youma. It feels like privileging the privileged.
As i said, i am not opposed to lethal force in general.
It's just that the present situation makes using it kinda iffy.

The other thing is that, if Kinto is anything to go by, the dark generals are uncomfortably close to being both children (because Kinto is probably only a few years old) and slaves (because Kinto can't leave his master without dying).
This as well.
 
Part of it is that a lot of mook monsters in settings like ours really do seem to have a lot less in the way of free will and general grasp of reality, to the point where until we got Moon Healing Escalation there just wasn't a good alternative. Moon Healing Escalation is (and this is true in canon) a big step up in less-lethal anti-youma options, compared to Moon Tiara Action which just straight-up rips them apart.
I'm aware of all that. Is the situation prior to Healing Escalation that different from Poisony's? We can hold her still in the middle of a battle, but we don't have anywhere to keep her or any other way to prevent her from coming back later to try killing Nagisa and Honoka again.
 
Hmmmm.
Do we just off Poisony to free Kinto, or try to switch Naru to help Rei with Poisony as Makoto goes and punches Kinto?
I'm tempted to keep trying to capture Poisony, but i'll admit it is probably not the best course of action.
But on the other hand, i am not sure i want to tell Makoto to just pop her head off or something.
I'm sure Poisony is counting on Jupiter having to switch to dealing with the Kinto-Zakenna situation, giving her an opening to escape. But how about instead of giving her that chance, we kill two birds with another bird, and just have Jupes take Poisony with her to wield her as a club to beat the Zakenna out of Kintoleski? Whichever one of the three gets knocked out first, it'll probably end the possession one way or another. :V
 
Would it? Kintoleski explained that he was formed from the corruption of the Fountain; if the corruption is removed, does that mean that he turns into a nice person, or does that mean he gets removed with it?
Think of it like the bicycle elemental, the corruption makes them congeal into a single Very Upset entity, and the filtration spell untangles that back to the lesser component elementals, which in the normal course of things just function as reality should - i.e. metal doesn't normally move on its own.


So in his case, remove the corruption and he should be sorted back into the content Fountain of Metal. Which may remember being him but will not behave like him.
 
So what he's saying is... if we beat Lord Akudaikan and reclaim the Fountain of Metal, we get to summon Kintoleski? And it sounds like his general nature will remain the same, just not doing bad stuff. That feels like the biggest take away here.
Would it? Kintoleski explained that he was formed from the corruption of the Fountain; if the corruption is removed, does that mean that he turns into a nice person, or does that mean he gets removed with it?
The other thing is that, if Kinto is anything to go by, the dark generals are uncomfortably close to being both children (because Kinto is probably only a few years old) and slaves (because Kinto can't leave his master without dying).
Different Pretty Cure shows' dark generals can vary SIGNIFICANTLY in motivation, characteristics, age, existential origin, and other properties. Generalizing from one show's dark generals to another is unwise.

Just because Kintsoleki was created out of raw supernatural force a few years ago doesn't mean Poisony was, for instance, and just because Poisony presumably can't outlive the Dark King who rules over her doesn't mean that Kintsoleki couldn't outlive his evil overlord.
Think of it like the bicycle elemental, the corruption makes them congeal into a single Very Upset entity, and the filtration spell untangles that back to the lesser component elementals, which in the normal course of things just function as reality should - i.e. metal doesn't normally move on its own.
Looking it up, thank you PreCure wiki, it seems that two of Kintsoleki's fellow Dark Fall leaders do defect in that series, and the power of the spirits/restored Lakes is used to revive them. So "use the power of the restored lakes to revive them" does seem plausible!

On a related note, Poisony would indeed die if her boss was defeated. Her younger brother survived right until the end, and when the Dark King is killed, he dies as well.
 
On a related note, Poisony would indeed die if her boss was defeated. Her younger brother survived right until the end, and when the Dark King is killed, he dies as well.
Okay. We've got a path for Kintoleski, now we just gotta figure out... *quick google* Kiriya.

Honestly, part of me wants to try and help all of them, on account of the whole arguably-technically-children thing, but they may not be entirely willing.
Though it seems to imply he was reincarnated, but in the past, or something.
So not a hopeless situation for them.
Really?

...

Huh. Well, okay. Let's call that a backup plan.
 
Since the youma was quite clearly not in control of itself (as was mentioned by several people) my point was that it would have removed whatever Cendrillion had placed on it to force it to suicidal lengths and we could have had Usagi convince it to stop fighting. It may have still been a youma, but it would have been a free youma instead of controlled. Given the reaction when Terra Healing Escalation hit, that is proof that it was being controlled and that when the control was gone it had no desire to fight us. So Moon Tiara Stardust would have been the best solution, especially since it is an AoE and so it could have been cast immediately, since she only needs one hand to cast it where Moon Healing Escalation takes two.
I don't think there's enough evidence to support that. Your key claims are:

1) The youma was "clearly not in control of itself."
2) Therefore, the youma was being forced to go to suicidal lengths to attack Sailor Moon.
3) The effect of Terra Healing Escalation on the youma proves that it was being controlled.
4) Therefore, Moon Tiara Stardust would have broken the control.

My responses:

1) This youma's behavior doesn't seem out of line with the behavior we've seen from other youma. While not ALL youma exhibit this kind of extreme, berserk aggression, it's not atypical of youma as a whole. Compare to the behavior of the Crystal Seminar youma. It is normal for youma to rant about how they're going to bring Sailor Moon's head to their master and be lavishly rewarded, and even for them to squabble over the privilege of doing so.

2) For this youma to launch a solo attack on a large group of magical girls may seem suicidal, but note that there were at least four other combatants present. None of the other magical girls present made any effort to aid Sailor Moon, and the youma had a clear shot at her. The youma we just fought is, furthermore, nearly as powerful as Jadeite, and much stronger than Cendrillion herself was when we last fought her at the Shapelin Gym. Furthermore, while we know that Sailor Moon is strong enough to easily overpower even a Prowess 25 youma. The Dark Kingdom's last opportunity to gather intelligence on Sailor Moon's capabilities was at the Shapelin Gym, and she's gained several points of Prowess since that time. About +7, if I recall correctly, mostly from the Moon Stick. Furthermore, our overall superiority at the Shapelin Gym was so overwhelming that Cendrillion may not have had a clear idea of how much of the damage Sailor Moon did personally before being incapacitated. In other words, this youma had good reasons to overestimate their chances in a solo fight with Sailor Moon, and it turns out that a solo fight was exactly what they got for an extended period of time. Literally a few weeks ago, Usagi would have been in terrible danger from this situation.

3 and 4) We don't know if Terra Healing Escalation broke control or corruption. There is a significant difference between the two, especially given the way youma use "Life Energy." Moon Tiara Stardust breaks most control magic we've come across, but it doesn't purify- it cannot, for example, revert transformed youma into humans. As such, it might well not have reverted this youma into the "I can't believe it's not a night-gaunt" form under which it reconsidered its life choices.

In any case, setting aside the question of how useful it would have been at the start, it is the best spell to use now for obvious reasons. It covers a wide area so Usagi doesn't even need to leave the roof where she is now, and is designed to disrupt possession and corruptive magic, all of which are Poisony's arsenal. It could actually be said to be the natural counter to her powers as the Sonic attack was to the glass sisters (we just need to make it permanent next time).
Again, Moon Tiara Stardust counters possession but not corruption. It's not clear that it would beat a Zakenna or Uzaina, or a lot of other things Poisony does... But it IS a reasonably good choice for specifically driving the Zakenna spirit out of Kintoleski.

On the other hand, so is Moon Healing Escalation, and the greater spell is usually a better choice over the lesser. Furthermore, Moon Healing Escalation breaks mind control as well as possession, and might break whatever compulsion Kintoleski feels to his master- although that's something of a speculative Hail Mary pass.

I'm aware of all that. Is the situation prior to Healing Escalation that different from Poisony's? We can hold her still in the middle of a battle, but we don't have anywhere to keep her or any other way to prevent her from coming back later to try killing Nagisa and Honoka again.
To be fair, yes.

Again, Poisony demonstrates in canon extensive mind control and rapid shapeshifting abilities. Furthermore, she has high enough Prowess that she's probably quite a lot stronger than human,* she can probably pick a mechanical lock with her freaking hairstyle based on her Episode 20 fight, and she can turn random piles of literal garbage into Prowess 20+ monsters by snapping her fingers... at least sometimes.

And she really seems to want Cures Black and White dead.

It's possible that we can get through to her somehow and convince her to defect, but I don't want to bet on it. The only concern I have is that if we kill her now, it may be very difficult to find her Prism Stone, because she doesn't have it on her at the moment and we don't know where she put it.
___________________

*(Remember, Usagi had Prowess in the mid-teens in the early week or two, back when she was deadlifting the back end of an excavator. Poisony is on that level.)

I'm sure Poisony is counting on Jupiter having to switch to dealing with the Kinto-Zakenna situation, giving her an opening to escape. But how about instead of giving her that chance, we kill two birds with another bird, and just have Jupes take Poisony with her to wield her as a club to beat the Zakenna out of Kintoleski? Whichever one of the three gets knocked out first, it'll probably end the possession one way or another. :V
I'm having flashbacks to Poptart's quest.

Dandeer flail?

Dandeer flail.

Think of it like the bicycle elemental, the corruption makes them congeal into a single Very Upset entity, and the filtration spell untangles that back to the lesser component elementals, which in the normal course of things just function as reality should - i.e. metal doesn't normally move on its own.

So in his case, remove the corruption and he should be sorted back into the content Fountain of Metal. Which may remember being him but will not behave like him.
If true, then Kintoleski is essentially the same kind of being as the Uzaina, only stronger and less animalistic and crude-minded.

On the other hand, I think this makes a few too many speculative inferences about what's going on "under the hood."

Okay. We've got a path for Kintoleski, now we just gotta figure out... *quick google* Kiriya.

Honestly, part of me wants to try and help all of them, on account of the whole arguably-technically-children thing, but they may not be entirely willing.
Yeah, not entirely willing.

Also it's kind of complicated inferring ages. We don't really know how long ago Kintoleski was created, and it's inherently a bit tricky to talk about the age and maturity of beings created out of nowhere, fully formed, by magic. Athena from the brow of Zeus, sort of thing, y'know?

And we definitely don't know how old Poisony is.
 
Seven different and unique worlds, bound together by the roots of a massive tree known as Yggdrasil, the World Tree.
At a guess, seven planets linked by a teleport system. Plus a fancy name. Fountains are likely unrelated to the tree.

But I am Kintoleski. I am borne of the Fountain of Metal. No more can honor and fair play be removed from me, then could passion and excitement be removed from Moerumba, borne of the Fountain of Fire... My lord wishes to rule over all, to bring the Seven Worlds together, and I am bound by the chains of loyalty to assist him. It is simply who, and what I am.
So probably not going to be able to recruit him. Disappointing, if unsurprising.

It seems that Poisony has betrayed Kintoleski. Both Neptune and Uranus snap back into a combat ready stance, as Kintoleski takes a single step forward, a soft, guttural growl of "Zakenna..." passing his lips.
Shall we try Moon Healing Escalation this time? I suspect Terra would have… unfortunate results and exorcism has proven ineffective against whatever Zakenna are.
 
And that gives me flashbacks to how that ended. Lets avoid the "bad guy wins and takes over the planet, MC is forced to flee depowered" ending this time, alright? :p
We'll be careful this time.

So probably not going to be able to recruit him. Disappointing, if unsurprising.
I mean, it's entirely possible that there's a way to purify him, or to just get him to go 'ronin,' as it were, after blowing up his boss.

It's just that we're not going to get him to flip sides purely by talking to him.
 
And that gives me flashbacks to how that ended. Lets avoid the "bad guy wins and takes over the planet, MC is forced to flee depowered" ending this time, alright? :p
That wouldn't really be feasible tbh. To get away from Sailor moon villains, we'd need to flee the solar system, and at that point we'd be asking for Galaxia to kick our teeth in.
I mean, it's entirely possible that there's a way to purify him, or to just get him to go 'ronin,' as it were, after blowing up his boss.
Practically a modern-day Sesshomaru. Just, y'know, shiny.
 
And that gives me flashbacks to how that ended. Lets avoid the "bad guy wins and takes over the planet, MC is forced to flee depowered" ending this time, alright? :p
To be fair, the villain had prodigious mind control abilities, mind controlled all the seers who could have identified them as a villain, and for all that they were very much at the MC's mercy in case of a sudden rampage, MC in question was an entirely too virtuous person to go on a rampage, aka snap and kill the not-yet-revealed-as-villain.

The villain was entirely too much like an iceberg, the extent of their villainy was hidden until the very end. A Masterful Intrigue victory on their part.
 
To provide some perspective here ~7TJ over ~180 seconds translates to ~38.9GW. In 1997 (so +5 years) Japan had 179.5GW of installed capacity. So if Varja could be converted to electricity generation it would provide 21.7% of the nation's electricity requirements. That would normally be a bit of a problem with regards to transportation except the Tokyo General Electricity company alone provides ~54.0GW of electricity so the grid infrastructure likely already exists.

This is actually something Japan would be very interested in as right now they have a serious electricity price crisis. In 1992 the price was $0.14 USD/kWh compared to $0.09 for France and $0.06 for the USA and that would only get worse in the following years peaking at $0.18 USD/kWh. Japan went through some serious regulatory reform in 1998 to combat these high prices but MCAT could undercut all that by providing cheap environmentally friendly (Japan was already starting to take that into account by 1998) base-load power.

The problem is that its not sustained juice, and storing power has always been a problem for electricity grids. And no, you cannot just dump more electricity into a system, its actually a very careful balancing act where to much will blow the system out and to little will cause it to fail as well. if this tech path results in improved power storage that would be the biggest win.
 
So what he's saying is... if we beat Lord Akudaikan and reclaim the Fountain of Metal, we get to summon Kintoleski?
If anyone could, it would be Bloom and Egret who could summon him, or to be more accurate, a good-aligned version of him
also, fun fact: because I only saw Kintoleski's picture once, I've been imagining him as a gold-plated Escanor this whole time when he actually looks more like Von Kaiser from Punch-Out.(specifically his Wii title defense look)
 
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