Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
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While I agree with those that are wondering whether or not the nature of the ya-lith-kai's method of attack is a result of a fundamental misunderstanding of how Imperial Cultivation works I am in fact somewhat startled that the idea that this is in fact a Tragedy of Errors both coming and going has not already been proposed by someone
To be blunt what if the ith's demands would not only not be considered a Slap to the Face in a conflict between Ith
What if this is a near textbook way of ending a conflict between cultivating polities by Ith standards
An analogy using a foreign power whose culture we are slightly more familiar with to demonstrate would be, during a First Contact conflict with a member of the Polar nations their armies burned down every Tree they came across, then included as part of the surrender terms after a literal Scorched Earth assault the demand that Shenhua stay in her Tree or such attacks would continue.
Obviously a member of the Polar Nations considers a lost Tree an appropriate substitute for a lost Cultivator of some advancement due to their sheer Rarity whereas the Emerald Seas will never run out of Trees barring something on the level of what happened to the Golden Fields.
Equally the demand for something that is simultaneously the most powerful and least human major component of the Foreign Polity to not roam about untethered causing havoc where ever it may would be seen as entirely reasonable whereas in the Celestial Empire this is one Sovereign attempting to enforce ridiculously draconian commands on another Sovereign and any Sovereign within the Empire would be guaranteed to hate that and be willing to make it everyone else's problem
the results: a Mustering for Total War.
I can actually sketch out a fairly logical and "at least from the other side" reasonable impression of why most or all of these demands would be seen as reasonable rather than a Slap to the Face.
The Ith cultivation is based on Impurities, but what does that actually mean based on the information we have available to us right now?
Impurities are the dross left behind by advancing in cultivation.
Has any character in the entirety of the quest's history ever commented on the difference between one persons post breakthrough waste and another's even in terms of something like exact smell in a way that would indicate any relationship to where it came from?
Have any of Li Suyin's Impurity utilizing artifacts that she's shown off in front of us been shown to rely on anything like a specific kind of Impurity rather than a particular Potency of Impurity?
Has any Ith mentioned a source of Impurities that is special for any reason other than its Potency?
During our spying upon an Ith settlement's harvesters did they ever comment on what they were harvesting in a way that indicated something uniquely local to an area rather than whether something was common or uncommon?
Lastly we know that Ith cultivation is an inversion of Imperial Cultivation on a fundamental level but do we know every way in which that is true?
One possible sketch of a solution based on available questions and answers is this.
Impurities are Impurities are Impurities.
Impurity Cultivation uses a Single resource that only differs in Quality to attain branching paths that can all be utilized together.
or rather than many branching roads that all lead to the same isolating end as uniquely expressed by an individual point by one branch of the tree instead have one source of power feeding countless roots as expressed by many becoming one collective entity for all roots are symbolically one.
what is typically though of as the real tree and its many branches and what are always thought of as the roots each matching there symbolic meaning while inverting their actual meaning
How has that led to their current demands...simple.
the Ith have no concept of a cultivation resource that is unique in any way other than Intensity.
they very well may not understand what a Sect is as the concept of truly unique opportunities resulting from any sources much less ones environment does not exist within there cultivation system.
to the ith losing the Argent Vents is no different than losing any other source of Impurities it is ultimately replaceable.
the demand to retreat forces past a certain point may be viewed as a means of negotiating the relative peace that will define future relations rather than an act of annexation.
If any source of Impurities will do amount of Territory may matter more for bragging rights and breathing room as long as no major resources are lost
Sure moving is inconvenient but anywhere would be pretty much the same with the only thing worth missing being any fond memories of the places you've been
The only move that may be in any way approaching outrageous may be the demand to surrender the Ha though such an action may be seen as justified in response to blows as "devastating" as the Emerald Seas has received
The worst part of all this is no one in a position to ask is likely to be the right combination of Stupid and Smart enough to ask the Ha how Ith use different kinds of Impurities in a way that will be understood as asking about anything other than different Potencies of Impurity.
After all this is based on something so foundational almost everyone learns about it before they become a Red/Gold or Ith equivalent.
To be blunt what if the ith's demands would not only not be considered a Slap to the Face in a conflict between Ith
What if this is a near textbook way of ending a conflict between cultivating polities by Ith standards
An analogy using a foreign power whose culture we are slightly more familiar with to demonstrate would be, during a First Contact conflict with a member of the Polar nations their armies burned down every Tree they came across, then included as part of the surrender terms after a literal Scorched Earth assault the demand that Shenhua stay in her Tree or such attacks would continue.
Obviously a member of the Polar Nations considers a lost Tree an appropriate substitute for a lost Cultivator of some advancement due to their sheer Rarity whereas the Emerald Seas will never run out of Trees barring something on the level of what happened to the Golden Fields.
Equally the demand for something that is simultaneously the most powerful and least human major component of the Foreign Polity to not roam about untethered causing havoc where ever it may would be seen as entirely reasonable whereas in the Celestial Empire this is one Sovereign attempting to enforce ridiculously draconian commands on another Sovereign and any Sovereign within the Empire would be guaranteed to hate that and be willing to make it everyone else's problem
the results: a Mustering for Total War.
I can actually sketch out a fairly logical and "at least from the other side" reasonable impression of why most or all of these demands would be seen as reasonable rather than a Slap to the Face.
The Ith cultivation is based on Impurities, but what does that actually mean based on the information we have available to us right now?
Impurities are the dross left behind by advancing in cultivation.
Has any character in the entirety of the quest's history ever commented on the difference between one persons post breakthrough waste and another's even in terms of something like exact smell in a way that would indicate any relationship to where it came from?
Have any of Li Suyin's Impurity utilizing artifacts that she's shown off in front of us been shown to rely on anything like a specific kind of Impurity rather than a particular Potency of Impurity?
Has any Ith mentioned a source of Impurities that is special for any reason other than its Potency?
During our spying upon an Ith settlement's harvesters did they ever comment on what they were harvesting in a way that indicated something uniquely local to an area rather than whether something was common or uncommon?
Lastly we know that Ith cultivation is an inversion of Imperial Cultivation on a fundamental level but do we know every way in which that is true?
One possible sketch of a solution based on available questions and answers is this.
Impurities are Impurities are Impurities.
Impurity Cultivation uses a Single resource that only differs in Quality to attain branching paths that can all be utilized together.
or rather than many branching roads that all lead to the same isolating end as uniquely expressed by an individual point by one branch of the tree instead have one source of power feeding countless roots as expressed by many becoming one collective entity for all roots are symbolically one.
what is typically though of as the real tree and its many branches and what are always thought of as the roots each matching there symbolic meaning while inverting their actual meaning
How has that led to their current demands...simple.
the Ith have no concept of a cultivation resource that is unique in any way other than Intensity.
they very well may not understand what a Sect is as the concept of truly unique opportunities resulting from any sources much less ones environment does not exist within there cultivation system.
to the ith losing the Argent Vents is no different than losing any other source of Impurities it is ultimately replaceable.
the demand to retreat forces past a certain point may be viewed as a means of negotiating the relative peace that will define future relations rather than an act of annexation.
If any source of Impurities will do amount of Territory may matter more for bragging rights and breathing room as long as no major resources are lost
Sure moving is inconvenient but anywhere would be pretty much the same with the only thing worth missing being any fond memories of the places you've been
The only move that may be in any way approaching outrageous may be the demand to surrender the Ha though such an action may be seen as justified in response to blows as "devastating" as the Emerald Seas has received
The worst part of all this is no one in a position to ask is likely to be the right combination of Stupid and Smart enough to ask the Ha how Ith use different kinds of Impurities in a way that will be understood as asking about anything other than different Potencies of Impurity.
After all this is based on something so foundational almost everyone learns about it before they become a Red/Gold or Ith equivalent.
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Aren't the Ith'ia themselves some of the best crafters in the setting? One would think they'd have countermeasures to that kind of fuckery.
According to what the White Sky could dig up yes. But they have not shown the degree of quality stated in the records, so the IC consideration is that either they are so far from the center that they dont have the really good stuff. Or they are cut off due to not having access to the Gate.
I'd say the Ith have very much misunderstood the Empire with their demands. I'm quite certain they think the hit was actually a serious blow, rather than mostly just pissing people off. They probably also misunderstood how the demand would be taken, though I'm less certain. Misunderstandings and the problems thereof are kind of a running theme for the quest, you know?
Look at how the thing with the polar nation went. There was plenty of incomprehension there, and that was two groups who wanted to understand each other, and had some connection to start from. I won't say the Ith are more different than the Polar Nations, because we don't understand them and I suspect they are more similar than we suspect, but they are definitely less well placed for understanding.
Now, I've seen the argument brought forth that they should know better, because they have human traitors working for them. But that requires listening and believing them. This is quite rare, because if you're a xenophobic warmongerer who thinks the opponents are lesser, why would you make an exception for those guys? Further, those guys are traitors, and therefore by definition not trustworthy. Especially for a highly communal society like the Ith. Do you really want to discuss deep strategy with them, or base it on their opinions? Really, either the enemies do things the proper and reasonable way, your way, and you know how they will act, or they will act as stupid fools, in which case they'll lose and don't require much consideration.
And honestly, they'd be right not to trust their human collaborators. They'd either be the outcasts who really despise the system (like Yan Renshu) or the sociopathic and ambitious, who have a really low opinion on everyone else (also like Yan Renshu). Under the Hui, the outcasts could be pretty reasonable people, but with the Cai they'd mostly (mostly!) be people who are outcasts for a reason (like Yan Renshu).
Do you expect good advice from Yan Renshu? Gods no. He's so myopic, self-centred and disdainful of everyone else that he couldn't give you good advice if he wanted, and also so myopic, self-centred and disdainful of everyone else that he wouldn't want to. You couldn't even get a clear idea of culture and expected reactions, because he's so wrapped up in his worldview and persecution complex. I'd be like trying to understand the american legal system by talking to a sovereign citizen.
At most, I expect they came up with a strategy in line with their normal operations, and then asked Yan Renshu and his ilk for comments. Now, if you've placed yourself in the grasp of an alien society at war with your home nation, and they ask you if their plan is stupid, are you going to tell then yes? Seems a bit risky, doesn't it? Maybe you'd just try to nudge them in a better direction, but not say so directly. Yan Renshu certainly wouldn't. Although, I'm not convinced he'd actually think it's stupid. He's extremely callous, and also thinks everyone else is weak (in part because they aren't callous), and surely a demonstration of power would cow those sentimental fools.
And also, I'm not sure he actually knows all that much about how the empire works. Not really. He's from a merchant family which has conistently failed to reach the low nobility. He's not LQ. He's never been face to face with a White, he doesn't hang out with ducal heirs and the youth of the general high nobility, he hasn't met a dozen high ranking spirits and talked with them. He didn't get adopted by a winter spirit, or dance with the moon, or flitter as a burning spark between the clash of sovereigns. He got his worms from somewhere, but that's probably about it, and it wouldn't tell him so much about the higher ends of imperial society. He might know you become less flexible as you grow in power, but I doubt he understands. His perspective is mostly a mortal one.
And I suspect that other informants would be similar. The higher you go in the hierarchy, the more you have to lose, and the less viable going to the Ith becomes in the first place. It's not impossible for there to be those who'd risk it anyway. But it seems like the Cai rebellion would've cleaned out the vast, vast majority of them. They'd have a very easy time if the Hui were still in power, or with a place like the Celestial Peaks. Thousand Lakes too, before Sun took the discontent away (although the geography there is not favorable).
In conclusion: This is not a 4d chess move. It's a genuine fuck-up, because cross cultural understanding is hard if you're trying, and they're probably not.
Look at how the thing with the polar nation went. There was plenty of incomprehension there, and that was two groups who wanted to understand each other, and had some connection to start from. I won't say the Ith are more different than the Polar Nations, because we don't understand them and I suspect they are more similar than we suspect, but they are definitely less well placed for understanding.
Now, I've seen the argument brought forth that they should know better, because they have human traitors working for them. But that requires listening and believing them. This is quite rare, because if you're a xenophobic warmongerer who thinks the opponents are lesser, why would you make an exception for those guys? Further, those guys are traitors, and therefore by definition not trustworthy. Especially for a highly communal society like the Ith. Do you really want to discuss deep strategy with them, or base it on their opinions? Really, either the enemies do things the proper and reasonable way, your way, and you know how they will act, or they will act as stupid fools, in which case they'll lose and don't require much consideration.
And honestly, they'd be right not to trust their human collaborators. They'd either be the outcasts who really despise the system (like Yan Renshu) or the sociopathic and ambitious, who have a really low opinion on everyone else (also like Yan Renshu). Under the Hui, the outcasts could be pretty reasonable people, but with the Cai they'd mostly (mostly!) be people who are outcasts for a reason (like Yan Renshu).
Do you expect good advice from Yan Renshu? Gods no. He's so myopic, self-centred and disdainful of everyone else that he couldn't give you good advice if he wanted, and also so myopic, self-centred and disdainful of everyone else that he wouldn't want to. You couldn't even get a clear idea of culture and expected reactions, because he's so wrapped up in his worldview and persecution complex. I'd be like trying to understand the american legal system by talking to a sovereign citizen.
At most, I expect they came up with a strategy in line with their normal operations, and then asked Yan Renshu and his ilk for comments. Now, if you've placed yourself in the grasp of an alien society at war with your home nation, and they ask you if their plan is stupid, are you going to tell then yes? Seems a bit risky, doesn't it? Maybe you'd just try to nudge them in a better direction, but not say so directly. Yan Renshu certainly wouldn't. Although, I'm not convinced he'd actually think it's stupid. He's extremely callous, and also thinks everyone else is weak (in part because they aren't callous), and surely a demonstration of power would cow those sentimental fools.
And also, I'm not sure he actually knows all that much about how the empire works. Not really. He's from a merchant family which has conistently failed to reach the low nobility. He's not LQ. He's never been face to face with a White, he doesn't hang out with ducal heirs and the youth of the general high nobility, he hasn't met a dozen high ranking spirits and talked with them. He didn't get adopted by a winter spirit, or dance with the moon, or flitter as a burning spark between the clash of sovereigns. He got his worms from somewhere, but that's probably about it, and it wouldn't tell him so much about the higher ends of imperial society. He might know you become less flexible as you grow in power, but I doubt he understands. His perspective is mostly a mortal one.
And I suspect that other informants would be similar. The higher you go in the hierarchy, the more you have to lose, and the less viable going to the Ith becomes in the first place. It's not impossible for there to be those who'd risk it anyway. But it seems like the Cai rebellion would've cleaned out the vast, vast majority of them. They'd have a very easy time if the Hui were still in power, or with a place like the Celestial Peaks. Thousand Lakes too, before Sun took the discontent away (although the geography there is not favorable).
In conclusion: This is not a 4d chess move. It's a genuine fuck-up, because cross cultural understanding is hard if you're trying, and they're probably not.
My money is on the Ya intentionally trying to provoke the Emerald Seas bull into running right into their Cunning Trap. Let's see what Ling Qi manages to get from the Ha.
Demanding that the Emerald Seas yields control to the Ha is absolutely outrageous. No degree of ignorance or misundertanding about human society amd cultivation would make them expect any response besides an even further escalation of conflict.
In fact, I see that as a blatant attempt to foil the tenous and strained relations in place between the ES and the Ha.
The same goes for the destruction of the Argent Vents.
The Ya at the very least understand that the ES's higher realms are individuals instead of a collective.
They don't only have traitors like Renshu but they have also apparently been working with the Cloud Nomads for quite some time before the opening attack.
The Ya colluded with them to strike down elder Zhou. Successfully at that. The Cloud Nomads are sure to have properly briefed the Ith about how to fight the lowlanders.
So they do understand how to target and harm the ES's military might.
While they could indeed be overestimating how damaging their terrorist attacks have been, I see no basis to assume the Ya are acting under false assumptions about how crippled and scared the ES is.
This demands are done with another clear objective in mind.
In fact, I see that as a blatant attempt to foil the tenous and strained relations in place between the ES and the Ha.
The same goes for the destruction of the Argent Vents.
The Ya at the very least understand that the ES's higher realms are individuals instead of a collective.
They don't only have traitors like Renshu but they have also apparently been working with the Cloud Nomads for quite some time before the opening attack.
The Ya colluded with them to strike down elder Zhou. Successfully at that. The Cloud Nomads are sure to have properly briefed the Ith about how to fight the lowlanders.
So they do understand how to target and harm the ES's military might.
While they could indeed be overestimating how damaging their terrorist attacks have been, I see no basis to assume the Ya are acting under false assumptions about how crippled and scared the ES is.
This demands are done with another clear objective in mind.
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- He/Him
This is not quite what was demanded. They demanded that authority over the Ha be turned over, presumably to them (the ones sending the message), not that the Emerald Seas subordinate themselves to the Ha.
Still self-evidently insulting, mind you, but in a slightly different way.
Oh, I see. I read that as "turn over authority over to the Ha".
So the demands aren't so extremely crazy as I thought, but still insulting enough that my point still stands.
You can very reasonably just see those demands as "stop fucking with us and leave us alone". They consider the Ha part of 'us', so demanding their freedom (or 'freedom') falls under that. Destroying the vents is because those fuck with the underground environment (and IIRC, that was the original casus beli). And the line in the mountain might not be beyond the limits of the prior campaign, and is again a matter of "leave us alone" just with the "us" now being the allied nomands. And I guess they might make the claim to those mountains because they live under them. Which is a better claim than the ES has, who neither live on or under the mountains.
In a vacuum, those are actually pretty reasonable demands, and better than what the nomads or the Ha got, aka surrender or die.
It's the context of prior actions (several nasty attacks) that makes the offer questionably genuine, and insulting. But it's not like the ES doesn't make questionable and behaves insultingly either. The treaty with the Polar Nation is widely seen as just a way to put off fucking with them until it's more convenient. The goal with the nomads is just flat out genocide, where cultural or just murderous. The Ha's representative was paraded around, and that clearly wasn't an honour.
You can't claim that the Ya started it either. From their perspective, the Argent Sect started it with the Vents. I do think they are more culpable, and have taken more escalatory actions, but the ES is not blameless.
Baiting the Ya into powering up and then not engaging seems like it could make this a very expensive strategy for the Ya.
Probably not something Shenhua can engage in, though.
Yeah, this really just seems to be stating the wargoals publicly.
Letting their population know that these are the resnable demands that they have will help with their concensus. (I assume that these demands are publically known to the Ya civilians)
Destroying Argent Vents and defining the border are just standard war goals.
Libirating the Ha is also a very righteous thing to do, so, if you know that the two demands above aren't going to be accepted, you may as well throw this in yo make yourself sound more righteous.
The last line is the only part that might be sus. Perhaps they know this will be seen as an insult and is on purpose to draw them into a trap.
Or perhaps this is just propaganda to let the Ya civilians know just how much 'damage' they have already done.
Afterall, the Ith general might understand how ES military works, but the average civilian / soldier might nust think "damn, their census must be so low with these kind of losses"
All of this is based on the assumption that the Ya's demands are known to the Ya civs, which, seems likely, as you want your people to know ehat your fighting for if their belief is what powers you.
Letting their population know that these are the resnable demands that they have will help with their concensus. (I assume that these demands are publically known to the Ya civilians)
Destroying Argent Vents and defining the border are just standard war goals.
Libirating the Ha is also a very righteous thing to do, so, if you know that the two demands above aren't going to be accepted, you may as well throw this in yo make yourself sound more righteous.
The last line is the only part that might be sus. Perhaps they know this will be seen as an insult and is on purpose to draw them into a trap.
Or perhaps this is just propaganda to let the Ya civilians know just how much 'damage' they have already done.
Afterall, the Ith general might understand how ES military works, but the average civilian / soldier might nust think "damn, their census must be so low with these kind of losses"
All of this is based on the assumption that the Ya's demands are known to the Ya civs, which, seems likely, as you want your people to know ehat your fighting for if their belief is what powers you.
One should note that, to the imperial mindset, this is extra insulting mainly because from your polity's perspective, you haven't even actually fought properly yet. Sending terms before you've even moved past skirmish signals contempt in the Imperial folks, especially after you've done a bunch of civilian fuckery.
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I'm not sure if the Ith still have the context to know what a sustained White crafter can do.
It kind of depends on how the level of a project relates to the Cultivation of the crafter, and if the Ith's issue of sustaining individuals beyond Violet is a recent/local issue or if they never had sustainable Whites.
If the Ith are supreme crafters that are independent of the Cultivation of a single crafter, and never had sustainable Whites in the first place, then they should have a good idea what a White crafter like Shenhua can do and have access to such artifacts. If they are stuck with their crafting skills being connected to what Cultivation level they can sustain and the lose of everything sustainable over Violet is local/something that happened during their expansion, then they might have lost that context and the ability to make those artifacts.
So killing a Violet renowned across the South as a staunch champion and severely wounding a notorious Prism don't count as proper fighting?
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- He/Him
Those were assassinations (or at least the death was), not open battle. I'm pretty sure that makes a difference, culturally.
Elder Zhou got killed in open combat which was felt for hundreds of kilometres around.
And Jiao faced the Ya champion in open combat too.
Jiao might even have been killed if it wasn't for Xin.
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- He/Him
Yrs has specified he was assassinated. It was his death that was felt...a Violet's death was no small thing. He was fighting Cloud Nomads when a Ya assassin stabbed him in the back.
And Jiao didn't die. Which makes a difference when it comes to demands "We faced your champion in open battle and lost." is not a compelling argument for surrendering, even if you injured said champion.
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Not as a one off thing no. If they'd lead an army up and smashed into the argent sect right after then yeah.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah, Zhou got assassinated while fighting the cloud dudes, and Jiao was cause they were establishing a base of operations when Yan Renshu had his absolute zero IQ moment and fucked everything up.
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And let me guess as far as Ith are concerned open conflict between Consensus should be avoided at all costs to avoid risks to vital civilian populations caught in the crossfire especially after such lopsided losses to one Consensus' population ceners in comparison to the other?
note: I'm aware that you probably can't answer this question directly but I also wouldn't be surprised if the Ith would consider this conflict to be over and done with whereas to the Empire things haven't even started yet?
two very different models of what a war is supposed to look like. let's hope the Emerald Seas doesn't provoke their opponents with War Crimes that they wouldn't even recognize as such because...come on who would ever even think like that.
We are very used to dealing with our own brand of crazy but god help us we'll probably have very little understanding of why exactly the other side is acting so irrationally for most of this Tragedy of Errors.
Ogodei's ghost: "That's what I did and the asshats in charge back then didn't see it as proper fighting either, but rather gardening or some shit. There's just no winning with the lowlanders."
- Location
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The Hui might not have seen it as proper fight, but then they were delusional, and Emerald Seas, and especially the parts that were hit, disagreed with them.Ogodei's ghost: "That's what I did and the asshats in charge back then didn't see it as proper fighting either, but rather gardening or some shit. There's just no winning with the lowlanders."
- Location
- Unknown
One factor in why conflicts between Major Powers are horrifying and difficult to stop once started (outside of the blatant reality warping) is probably the fact that the way people Cultivate warps their thought process around.
Within the Imperial System this means that sufficiently advanced Cultivators whose Ways conflict are metaphysically incapable of coming to an understanding without outside interference of similar scale.
This is known.
What we may now be having to deal with is the fact that when the very building blocks of two polities Cultivation come into metaphorical conflict literal conflict may be rendered inevitable.
Ling Qi is attempting to act as interference that allows understanding, the metaphorical lens that warps to provide clarity, but a lens can only warp light in one way to solve one problem something to correct nearsightedness cannot correct farsightedness and viceversa.
in other words Ling Qi corrects the Empire's vision of the Polar Nation her existence only tells the Empire that glasses are a thing that can exist. Another universal truth of glasses is that you rarely realize how much you need them until you put them on.
Within the Imperial System this means that sufficiently advanced Cultivators whose Ways conflict are metaphysically incapable of coming to an understanding without outside interference of similar scale.
This is known.
What we may now be having to deal with is the fact that when the very building blocks of two polities Cultivation come into metaphorical conflict literal conflict may be rendered inevitable.
Ling Qi is attempting to act as interference that allows understanding, the metaphorical lens that warps to provide clarity, but a lens can only warp light in one way to solve one problem something to correct nearsightedness cannot correct farsightedness and viceversa.
in other words Ling Qi corrects the Empire's vision of the Polar Nation her existence only tells the Empire that glasses are a thing that can exist. Another universal truth of glasses is that you rarely realize how much you need them until you put them on.
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