CedeTheBees
Probably high right now
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I think the reward is pretty obvious: we get to learn more about Polar Cultivation
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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] Promise to push for comprehensive, if very basic sharing when the time comes. (Promise support for Minor Tech Sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability. MoI, White Plumes may dislike these options)
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
[X] Unfortunately it would be a poor idea for you to make such promises at this time. (No change.)
There is such a thing as waiting until the benefits are more apparent before we start touching on the stuff that makes the big guns triggerhappy. We don't need to promise anything now.
The only argument that seems to be made in favor is one of inevitability: this is going to happen anyways, we want this to happen anyways.
That makes me want to not stick out necks out on it. We'll get the benefits regardless, without taking the hit.
There is such a thing as waiting until the benefits are more apparent before we start touching on the stuff that makes the big guns triggerhappy. We don't need to promise anything now.
The only argument that seems to be made in favor is one of inevitability: this is going to happen anyways, we want this to happen anyways.
That makes me want to not stick out necks out on it. We'll get the benefits regardless, without taking the hit.
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kfrar
Aspiring Encyclopedia
Incidentally, this vote is the sort of opportunity we should keep an eye out for going forwards, because it allows us to spend a resource we don't care about (the ability to vote against tech sharing later on in the summit) for something we do (White Sky favor). Basic tech sharing is something we're already kinda committed to with our existing goals and commitments, so making this promise now effectively gets us something for nothing.
Obviously we're going to need to throw some bones to the Plumes, MoI, and Theocracy at some point in the future, but if we can make those "concessions" in places where are interests are aligned, we'll be much happier for it. And yes, our interests usually aren't aligned with, say, the MoI, but as an example, suppose we get to a phase of negotiations about pushing for further land claims or resource extraction or what have you. The MoI will want to claim land for the empire as a matter of course, we have a strong personal incentive to expand the amount of the Wall that our group can in time lay claim to, and the White Sky has enough favor with us that they can just deal with it. Similarly, there will surely be some security-based concession the Plumes may wish for that we would be happy to support, since we're some of the people most likely to be protected by increased security in the region.
No idea what we can work out with the Theocracy, and we'll probably need to eat some genuine sacrifices with the others anyway, but if we play our cards right, we should be able to keep the pain to a minimum.
Obviously we're going to need to throw some bones to the Plumes, MoI, and Theocracy at some point in the future, but if we can make those "concessions" in places where are interests are aligned, we'll be much happier for it. And yes, our interests usually aren't aligned with, say, the MoI, but as an example, suppose we get to a phase of negotiations about pushing for further land claims or resource extraction or what have you. The MoI will want to claim land for the empire as a matter of course, we have a strong personal incentive to expand the amount of the Wall that our group can in time lay claim to, and the White Sky has enough favor with us that they can just deal with it. Similarly, there will surely be some security-based concession the Plumes may wish for that we would be happy to support, since we're some of the people most likely to be protected by increased security in the region.
No idea what we can work out with the Theocracy, and we'll probably need to eat some genuine sacrifices with the others anyway, but if we play our cards right, we should be able to keep the pain to a minimum.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
When we started this project we were informed that the project needed to be seen as success by everybody. We can't really afford to ignore both Plumes AND MoI at the same time and expect being rewarded for it. CRX can't afford making anybody feel slighted, not when she is planning to conflict with her mother in the future.
Everybody should be atleast several points by the end. Especially Empire factions that CRX is going to court in the future. By that metric I think our highest priority is ES nobility and White Plumes are probably the third right behind White Sky.
Keeping MoI just positive might work but everybody else need to be high.
kfrar
Aspiring Encyclopedia
The Emerald Seas and the White Sky are my top priority in the summit for what should be obvious reasons, and while I would like to keep the Plumes a bit higher than barely tolerating us, I see no reason to shoot any higher than a 2 for the Theocracy by the end of things. Because so long as the summit goes through and the White Sky is happy about it, keeping the Theocracy happy in the long run isn't our problem.
It's Jaromila's.
We've got enough on our plate dealing with our domestic interests and the people we're actually negotiating with. Our goal with the Theocracy is to keep them happy enough to put down their signature. So long as we can manage that? We can let Jaromila handle the rest.
WhoTheHeckity
But no one ever asks HowTheHeckity
- Location
- Murica 🦅
[X] Promise to make the attempt, pushing for strong sharing when those negotiations come (Promise support for at least Moderate tech sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability, Nobility, MoI, and/or White Plumes may dislike these options. Cancel the next instance of White Sky Favor reduction on success)
[X] Promise to push for comprehensive, if very basic sharing when the time comes. (Promise support for Minor Tech Sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability. MoI, White Plumes may dislike these options)
[X] Promise to push for comprehensive, if very basic sharing when the time comes. (Promise support for Minor Tech Sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability. MoI, White Plumes may dislike these options)
[X] Promise to push for comprehensive, if very basic sharing when the time comes. (Promise support for Minor Tech Sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability. MoI, White Plumes may dislike these options)
One of the reasons we went down this whole Ice Lady path was to gain access to a different type of cultivation not found anywhere in the Empire. May as well commit.
One of the reasons we went down this whole Ice Lady path was to gain access to a different type of cultivation not found anywhere in the Empire. May as well commit.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
That seems like a pretty big assumption, both that we want a different type of cultivation and that we can use it without starting over from 0.
There's nothing to commit to.
Well, I do remember that White Sky was interested in Hanyi ( Polar Theocracy could be interested too), and wanted to study her. We could go back to that offer and have an adventure in the lands of Ice with Bao Qian spreading Hanyi's songs after the war
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SleepyCaterpilar
Just a Rapariga
[X] Promise to make the attempt, pushing for strong sharing when those negotiations come (Promise support for at least Moderate tech sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability, Nobility, MoI, and/or White Plumes may dislike these options. Cancel the next instance of White Sky Favor reduction on success)
[X] Promise to make the attempt, pushing for strong sharing when those negotiations come (Promise support for at least Moderate tech sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability, Nobility, MoI, and/or White Plumes may dislike these options. Cancel the next instance of White Sky Favor reduction on success)
[X] Promise to push for comprehensive, if very basic sharing when the time comes. (Promise support for Minor Tech Sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability. MoI, White Plumes may dislike these options)
What convinced me was the argument that we already invited the Han's geomancers experts to exchange formation knowledge with the Seared Lands.
That means we are going to push for at least some Tech Sharing anyway, so why don't make the promise now and gain some WS favouribility beforehand?
And that's not mentioning how we intend to grant the WS access to the Observatory.
How are we going to argue to trust them with accessing such an important and expensive equipment if we can't even defend sharing the ES's most basic, public knowledge formationwork with them?
Even so, the strong exchange is too much. That one won't just be disliked by the MoI and WP, which were already expected to be reticent in those matters. The ES Nobility as whole would also be displeased.
That's a clear sign that we would be pushing too hard too fast.
Shielding the WS versus the next favouribility drop isn't worth it. That's actually a worse option than getting another +1 unless the drop is -2 or greater, which is quite unlikely.
This is especially true because we would be risking the very low and difficult to raise MoI and WP favouribility.
I also think we can frame the minor sharing as an attempt to improve security to convince the WP.
If the security arrangements were to be better coordinated there would be fewer gaps for attacks from the Ithia or the Twelve Stars.
We could also avoid incidents as the mutual agression or the explosion that nearly happened.
We do have a +5% for General rolls, so it would be a bit easier to convince her.
What convinced me was the argument that we already invited the Han's geomancers experts to exchange formation knowledge with the Seared Lands.
That means we are going to push for at least some Tech Sharing anyway, so why don't make the promise now and gain some WS favouribility beforehand?
And that's not mentioning how we intend to grant the WS access to the Observatory.
How are we going to argue to trust them with accessing such an important and expensive equipment if we can't even defend sharing the ES's most basic, public knowledge formationwork with them?
Even so, the strong exchange is too much. That one won't just be disliked by the MoI and WP, which were already expected to be reticent in those matters. The ES Nobility as whole would also be displeased.
That's a clear sign that we would be pushing too hard too fast.
Shielding the WS versus the next favouribility drop isn't worth it. That's actually a worse option than getting another +1 unless the drop is -2 or greater, which is quite unlikely.
This is especially true because we would be risking the very low and difficult to raise MoI and WP favouribility.
I also think we can frame the minor sharing as an attempt to improve security to convince the WP.
If the security arrangements were to be better coordinated there would be fewer gaps for attacks from the Ithia or the Twelve Stars.
We could also avoid incidents as the mutual agression or the explosion that nearly happened.
We do have a +5% for General rolls, so it would be a bit easier to convince her.
[X] Unfortunately it would be a poor idea for you to make such promises at this time. (No change.)
- Location
- FR
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If i remember Jiao's advice correctly, the suggestion that minor arts could drive the WS to adopt some things of Imperial culture (which is defintly superior in anyone's unbiaed eyes) could work to convince Chao Cun
The definition of success is fluid for each group, though. Our definition, the one that is going to make all our risks worth it, is establishment of a foundation for long term diplomacy, trade, and cultural exchange. An addendum to that is hammering into the skulls of every group that we are negotiating with another policy and nation, not just "Barbarians". We probably need to reach an even higher level of acceptance than the Xuan have, because the Emerald Seas aren't as isolated as the Savage Seas.
All the Plumes care about is using these negotiations to keep the Twelve Stars and Ith-ia from gathering more allies. As long as we can get some assurances the White Sky will help steer other Cloud Tribes away from the fight and not join in, the Plumes will be "happy" with the summit. They're a low bar.
The other Provinces don't matter much, directly. Except for the West, where we need to convince the Suns to stop poking at Freya. We also need to try getting the West to agree not to raid, invade, or harass the Tangled Pines and western White Sky.
Our biggest opponent is going to be the Ministry of Integrity, which would much prefer that we lable everyone south of the Wall as barbarians and move on. They have no investment in diplomacy or trade. They don't have any "success" condition here at all. We literally need just to keep them from actively sabotaging the event.
Keeping favor from the Emerald Seas Nobility high is the biggest priority. Without support at home, we have nothing to offer. White Sky next, because we need someone to talk to. The White Plumes is third, but a distant third. They just need an assurance we won't screw up their on-going campaigns. And we'd like them to, ya know, not start a war.
Favor from the ministry is dead last priority.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
Their success condition is stopping the spread of sacrificial cultivation methods in the like of White Sky use. That is not the same as the methods MoI was created to stop but it looks like it.
So slowing down the tech sharings do actually make sense as it would give time to both sides to make the distinction about what would offend eachother and make sure it doesn't happen.
As it is we are being hasty, We have not checked or even conversed about what is going to get shared. So we are risking something that might cause a very sharp drop on MoI favor.
The White Sky don't sacrifice other people, they make their own physical sacrifices. I don't think anyone is going to look at someone like Svetla (the girl we met who cut out her own eyes and heart to achieve the Third Realm) and assume that the White Sky are using human beings to fuel cultivation like the corpse immortal in Tonghou was, or like Su Ling's mom is.
All cultivation requires sacrifice. Imperial requires spiritual sacrifice more than the White Sky method. That's why Jaromilla was so shocked that literal children are expected to sacrifice their ability to grow and develop as people, freezing their identity in place at the age of 16-18. Which, quite legitimately, is an absolutely insane thing. Sure you might have to cut off a hand or something, but at least the White Sky folks don't get locked into a single personality as teens.
Sharing information about cultivation and related arts is literally the only way to show to the Ministry and others that the White Sky aren't doing "forbidden" things. We aren't going to be sharing anything that isn't available to any educated child in the Empire. But we HAVE to start actually making exchanges to show the folks at home that this outreach will serve a purpose.
Gaining favor with the Ministry isn't worth walking away from this summit empty-handed. All that does is make us look like children handed a toy for good behavior. We did a good job, the Duchess let us play nice with some strange Barbarians for a while. Headpats all around, and everyone goes back to ignoring the South.
It's on us to prove that a strong relationship with the White Sky has tangible benefits. Material goods are going to be tricky due to distance and terrain. But if they can give us valuable information and knowledge, that's a huge win.
All cultivation requires sacrifice. Imperial requires spiritual sacrifice more than the White Sky method. That's why Jaromilla was so shocked that literal children are expected to sacrifice their ability to grow and develop as people, freezing their identity in place at the age of 16-18. Which, quite legitimately, is an absolutely insane thing. Sure you might have to cut off a hand or something, but at least the White Sky folks don't get locked into a single personality as teens.
Sharing information about cultivation and related arts is literally the only way to show to the Ministry and others that the White Sky aren't doing "forbidden" things. We aren't going to be sharing anything that isn't available to any educated child in the Empire. But we HAVE to start actually making exchanges to show the folks at home that this outreach will serve a purpose.
Gaining favor with the Ministry isn't worth walking away from this summit empty-handed. All that does is make us look like children handed a toy for good behavior. We did a good job, the Duchess let us play nice with some strange Barbarians for a while. Headpats all around, and everyone goes back to ignoring the South.
It's on us to prove that a strong relationship with the White Sky has tangible benefits. Material goods are going to be tricky due to distance and terrain. But if they can give us valuable information and knowledge, that's a huge win.
[X] Promise to push for comprehensive, if very basic sharing when the time comes. (Promise support for Minor Tech Sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability. MoI, White Plumes may dislike these options)
Voting mostly to make it more even.
[X] Promise to make the attempt, pushing for strong sharing when those negotiations come (Promise support for at least Moderate tech sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability, Nobility, MoI, and/or White Plumes may dislike these options. Cancel the next instance of White Sky Favor reduction on success)
[X] Promise to make the attempt, pushing for strong sharing when those negotiations come (Promise support for at least Moderate tech sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability, Nobility, MoI, and/or White Plumes may dislike these options. Cancel the next instance of White Sky Favor reduction on success)
[X] Promise to make the attempt, pushing for strong sharing when those negotiations come (Promise support for at least Moderate tech sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability, Nobility, MoI, and/or White Plumes may dislike these options. Cancel the next instance of White Sky Favor reduction on success)
[X] Promise to push for comprehensive, if very basic sharing when the time comes. (Promise support for Minor Tech Sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability. MoI, White Plumes may dislike these options)
Could see this going a number of ways and both helping or hurting different groups within the same factions. Going out on a limb when we don't need to and do need to save rep with the MOI before the crunch of hard topics is probably a little unwise. That being said, this whole venture could fall under that category and helping the people that have shared interests is something I'd like to do.
Could see this going a number of ways and both helping or hurting different groups within the same factions. Going out on a limb when we don't need to and do need to save rep with the MOI before the crunch of hard topics is probably a little unwise. That being said, this whole venture could fall under that category and helping the people that have shared interests is something I'd like to do.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Unfortunately it would be a poor idea for you to make such promises at this time. (No change.)
[X] Promise to make the attempt, pushing for strong sharing when those negotiations come (Promise support for at least Moderate tech sharing. +1 White Sky Favorability, Nobility, MoI, and/or White Plumes may dislike these options. Cancel the next instance of White Sky Favor reduction on success)
I'm perfectly happy to be paid for what we'd very likely already go for.
I'm perfectly happy to be paid for what we'd very likely already go for.