Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
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Hooooo boy. The Bai Xiao are just a whole mess. What atrocities did the White Serpent Queen do to her little sister for the Black Viper to allow such a thing to be made from her family?
No wonder the other six Sisters refused to willingly follow. While we may have some sympathy for Meizhen, Suzhen, and Meilin... Woah. The "typical" White Serpent Bai seem pretty evil. Sun Shao seems to have done the world a pretty big favor.
If only HE wasn't binding his family against their wishes to a Goddess of blood and strife.
No wonder the other six Sisters refused to willingly follow. While we may have some sympathy for Meizhen, Suzhen, and Meilin... Woah. The "typical" White Serpent Bai seem pretty evil. Sun Shao seems to have done the world a pretty big favor.
If only HE wasn't binding his family against their wishes to a Goddess of blood and strife.
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
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This treatment of Black Serpents is pretty recent. There's another sidestory which mentions it, Radiant Serpent, I believe.
In the past, White Serpents had to earn the loyalty pf their Vipers and convince them to join them, instead of...the current cult training.
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Think I remember the Bai pirate sidestory implying the broken subservience of the Xiao clan was something that came about over time and at one point disputed. Probably makes it worse though that this is what time warped the original loyal relationship of the sisters in to.
Also not sure Shao can be thanked for improving things. Suppose their facade of invincibility being broken helped allow for change but probably not worth the death that would have followed
*Edit*
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
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Yeah, Shao has basically turned up the Bai xenophobia and made it impossible for any non-Bai/non-White Serpent to hold power.
And Shao's the person most likely to kick off the civil war just to continue his war to kill the Bai, even though a Suzhen-led Bai would be more likely focused on Prosperity and rebuilding (with only a little killing the Sun because why not) so like, he's not made things better.
And Shao's the person most likely to kick off the civil war just to continue his war to kill the Bai, even though a Suzhen-led Bai would be more likely focused on Prosperity and rebuilding (with only a little killing the Sun because why not) so like, he's not made things better.
TimEd
Meteor maker
But Shao's case already showed that such a thing was impossible. The Bai were perfectly willing to cut off their nose to
Shao 'helped' the Bai by killing all the morons first before doing a general cull and shake up after all the factionalisim lines were drawn. That way Meizhen's aunt had a generally easier time pushing her changes through the Bai's throat.
There's no little killing being planned only extermination. War is an extension of domestic policy and every strength of Suzhen's rule is intended to be used against the Sun by the Bai. If the Sun had been able to secure a legacy of White cultivators Shao could look beyond murder in this generation but right now he's staring genocide across the river and only him to keep it out.
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to be clear Sun Shao is a child of Thousand Lakes and the Brittle Bai that Meizhen describes here. Unlike the Bai, he wasn't afforded the leniency of being of the family. He wasn't afforded the lax rules around accountability and challenge that the Brittle Bai enjoy.
There's a reason that the original White and Black sisters won against the rest. It's not that the rest weren't strong, it's that White and Black were partners whereas the rest stood alone. Xiao Fen should be able to understand the line "I need you to walk beside me, not behind" because no matter the indoctrination the stories of the founding still seem to keep that fact true (at least the version Meizhen read kept it true). In this, Meizhen will be much more tempered and rounded than the other contenders for the title. The others will still be strong, but as Meizhen stated quite brittle. To be able to shift the battlefield and context to one that hits that strength at a poor angle, well. I think there's a reason Sun Shao's armies had such a consistently winning time against the Bai.
It's a problem that happens in societies that don't allow for criticism of power. Weaknesses go unexplored and unreinforced, vulnerabilities are ignored or exploited, corruption sets in and limits what can be done beyond narrow lanes of healthy traditions which are themselves undermined or turned towards ill purposes. It's much easier to break through corruption that has encroached upon lanes that were once healthy than lanes that never were, or those with no memory of being healthy.
So I think Meizhen has a huge advantage over her peer Bai opponents. There will be those with greater talent, those with broader connections, those with great traditional strengths. But who will have a Viper that can spar and criticize and improve them? Who will have a Viper capable of as much freedom as Xiao Fen will have? Who will have as much experience forging loyal connections, rather than demanding loyal connections?
<3 best snek
There's a reason that the original White and Black sisters won against the rest. It's not that the rest weren't strong, it's that White and Black were partners whereas the rest stood alone. Xiao Fen should be able to understand the line "I need you to walk beside me, not behind" because no matter the indoctrination the stories of the founding still seem to keep that fact true (at least the version Meizhen read kept it true). In this, Meizhen will be much more tempered and rounded than the other contenders for the title. The others will still be strong, but as Meizhen stated quite brittle. To be able to shift the battlefield and context to one that hits that strength at a poor angle, well. I think there's a reason Sun Shao's armies had such a consistently winning time against the Bai.
It's a problem that happens in societies that don't allow for criticism of power. Weaknesses go unexplored and unreinforced, vulnerabilities are ignored or exploited, corruption sets in and limits what can be done beyond narrow lanes of healthy traditions which are themselves undermined or turned towards ill purposes. It's much easier to break through corruption that has encroached upon lanes that were once healthy than lanes that never were, or those with no memory of being healthy.
So I think Meizhen has a huge advantage over her peer Bai opponents. There will be those with greater talent, those with broader connections, those with great traditional strengths. But who will have a Viper that can spar and criticize and improve them? Who will have a Viper capable of as much freedom as Xiao Fen will have? Who will have as much experience forging loyal connections, rather than demanding loyal connections?
<3 best snek
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And now I really want Ling Qi and Meizhan to catch up over the Summit by going Saboteur Hunting for old times sake
After all we haven't worked together in a while and certainly not in the field outside the Sects Domain
Xiao Fen can come along too, while she's been under our tutelage I don't think she's been exposed to proper Ling Qi adventuring yet
Hopefully whatever tribulations come from the Hunt (Ling Qi is involved so their will be tribulations) will be good material for the syncretic Style the two of them are developing based on the original Dynamic of the Sister Serpents as partners rather than Master and Servant
perhaps
"Origin of Black and White: Darting Serpents Dance"
(name still needs some workshopping)
After all we haven't worked together in a while and certainly not in the field outside the Sects Domain
Xiao Fen can come along too, while she's been under our tutelage I don't think she's been exposed to proper Ling Qi adventuring yet
Hopefully whatever tribulations come from the Hunt (Ling Qi is involved so their will be tribulations) will be good material for the syncretic Style the two of them are developing based on the original Dynamic of the Sister Serpents as partners rather than Master and Servant
perhaps
"Origin of Black and White: Darting Serpents Dance"
(name still needs some workshopping)
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There was a side story of Suzhen and Meizhen's mother talking on the lakeside about the Bai clan.
Meizhen's mother was extremely reformist. Defending proposals like how maybe the Bai shouldn't maim everyone that looks at them wrong (this was an actual criticism). And other such progressive reforms.
A lot of Suzhen's current program is based in the advice and insights of Meizhen's mother.
Meizhen was already diverging greatly from the typical White Serpent, and her time at the Sect only strengthened that tendency.
If Meizhen is studying her clan's history from an embassador (greater foreign perspective) while reading her mother's journal at the same time, then it's no wonder she is forming some interesting ideas about the Bai clan.
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
Yes he did, even if he didn't intend to. The only reason Suzhen now holds power and can push for change is because he personally killed most inflexible and powerful Bai in combat.
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
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Killing the people at the top generally doesn't work, especially for cultures. It just makes people *angrier*. Hence the increased hate and xenophobia against non-Bai. Like, the Bai reactionary and isolationist factions still exist for a reason.
Suzhen is really only succeeding because of her strength. Otherwise she would have gotten assassinated like her sister. Even then, she has more than 1 rival for the throne, and her main one is fully pushing the isolationist agenda.
She's pushing for White because the Bai respect strength above all else, so people would HAVE to listen to her.
And also, Shao killed reformers too. Fuxi was a reformer at the end of the day, but he was dealing with the Bai at their Worst™.
I mean, the Bai don't go into the Jungle. The one time they did, 9 Sovereigns got killed. So, I highly doubt they venture into the jungle to kill his soldiers, unless they come towards them first.
Poisoning the jungle is totally on the table though, but they've been doing that for millenia. Even at the sect, Sun Liling was the one who started fighting with Meizhen, not the other way around.
As long as they have the Jungle, the Sun really can't do anything to the Sun. Apart from assassinations. But they assassinate everyone (like Emperor An's wife). And nobles generally assassinate each other too (like Renxiang and Han Jian).
Sun Shao wants to kill them because his literal worldview is Us vs Them, and everyone apart from his abstract definition of Family is Other. Like, he's considering going against the Empire too since Xiang isn't fueling his war like An did. That's more likely to end his family's life.
The reason Shao doesn't have a successor right now is because he's sacrificed all of them to fuel his wars. So he had to make a deal with a spirit everyone in the Empire hates and nearly break his great granddaughter.
TLDR:
Generation trauma that supports toxic culture doesn't get rid of said toxic culture, even if it gets rid of higher ups. Suzhen's mostly succeeding because of her strength. That's why she's pushing for White.
The Bai really aren't in any shape or form ready to exterminate the Sun and can't because of the Jungle. Instead of actually building a strong line of succession, Shao sacrificed his family to fuel his wars.
Indeed, Black and White only won because they worked together from the start.
But that was the consequence that for millennia, the only real threat to any given Bai was other Bai. So it became that preventing dissent became the primary determinant of whether you can rule and maintain your rule. Whether dissent is justified no longer matters, the Bai can cover any issues with ample resources
In time that means authority and action can only flow from the center, independent action being a lever for dissent.
In time that means only the central court matters, for the fringes have neither an opinion nor the means to act on opinion.
In time that means the appearance of strength was functionally the same as strength.
In time that meant that sacrificing actual strength for preserving appearances or to negate scandal was vital to avoid having to actually deal with the backlog of ignored dissent.
And then somebody punches you in the face, and you're forced to brawl even if its really bad odds because if you look weak you die anyway.
I don't believe by Sun Shao's era there was any remaining capacity for change that didn't have a prerequisite river of blood attached.
You needed a crisis so great that millennia of compound interest on advantages couldn't be used to blow it away. Which meant a White realm threat aimed specifically at their legitimacy.
Anything less would be blown off and covered up.
THAT is the environment where the Bai thought that assassinating the wife of an imperial prince was a good idea. Twice, and they thought they were very clever with using it as an excuse to execute a reformer at that.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
They deliberately conditioned their students to damage their ability to enjoy headpats?
Those monsters.
Threnodist
occupying Haudenosaunee & Osage land she/her/hers
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[X] She would ask Zheng Fu to lay in wait. (Slight delay, less obvious tip off)
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
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I agree that we shouldn't take any risks.
[X] She would agree with Cao Chun to allow Jin Tae to spot. (Longer delay, No tip off)
[X] She would agree with Cao Chun to allow Jin Tae to spot. (Longer delay, No tip off)
[X] She would make her excuses tomorrow and lay in wait. (Immediate response, Obvious tip off)
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
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[X] She would agree with Cao Chun to allow Jin Tae to spot. (Longer delay, No tip off)