Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
I remember she was very QoL-focused in Peaks, which while helpful, are not the systematic changes one needs to change the Empire. But perhaps I'm forgetting something.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I remember she was very QoL-focused in Peaks, which while helpful, are not the systematic changes one needs to change the Empire. But perhaps I'm forgetting something.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean, we've definitely heard that, like Shenhua, she's done serious stuff to improve the lives of mortals in the areas she controls directly. That's not sufficient to fix the Empire's problems, but it sure is a good step to take.
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For reasons I can't quite articulate "virtue and the sage's empire cannot coexist" sounds like bullshit quitter talk to me.
Aliya
Someone I might become
- Location
- Kazakhstan
- Pronouns
- They/She/It
Nah, it a fairly uncomplicated statement regarding how hierarchical institutions can never truly be based on anything but violence and fear of violence, when it comes down to it. Something, something, all political power flows from the barrel of a gun.
Well, yes? Monopoly on the use of force is needed for all types of governments to function, even democratic ones.
That's true in real life and should be even more true in cultivator universes, where if that breaks down you get xianxia protagonists setting everything on fire on a regular basis. I'll take it over a neverending Sengoku Jidai anarchy, thank you very much.
Edit: And if Xiang has concluded that she doesn't care if the empire breaks apart then fuck her. I like reading history. I know what happens if central authority collapses in an all vs all civil war.
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- Location
- FR
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think it comes down to the way Qin was unified. Itt solidified that the only way for an Emperor of Qin to have real power over the Empire is to be, excuse my language, an imperialistic ass who thinks oe pretend to think their conquest is a flat benefit for the conquest'd
Aliya
Someone I might become
- Location
- Kazakhstan
- Pronouns
- They/She/It
Well, in regards to IRL, debatable, but beyond the scope of the thread. In regards to forge verse, no necessarily? Cultivators don't have to rule, as shown by others states where they... don't. And even if you accept rulership of cultivators, there is fundamentally no reason for them in the current system to not be corrupt monsters beyond Tribulation Unending eventually spitting out someone like Shenhua or Shao.
Fundamentally, there are no incentives to not be a piece of shit, and both Jiao and Xiang saw that's its impossible to create such systems. No one among the Dukes except maybe the Zheng or Shenhua would accept reduction of power, which means civil war, nor would it possible to make sure that the center will remain uncorrupted.
Unless there are feedback mechanisms which ensure that your ruler will be swiftly removed if they become corrupt, and without such mechanisms, its impossible to build a virtuous system.
- Location
- Finland
It is important to remember that it specifies Sages Empire, not just an empire.
And Sages Empire was built on the principle of strong dominating the weak.
Any pretense of justice to the weak, or accountability to the strong, are compromisesfrom that original vision.
Virtue can exist on individual basis, but at institutional level, no, not without transforming the empire so far from Sages vision as to be a new entity entirely.
And Sages Empire was built on the principle of strong dominating the weak.
Any pretense of justice to the weak, or accountability to the strong, are compromisesfrom that original vision.
Virtue can exist on individual basis, but at institutional level, no, not without transforming the empire so far from Sages vision as to be a new entity entirely.
Aliya
Someone I might become
- Location
- Kazakhstan
- Pronouns
- They/She/It
But all Empires are that per definition, though.
Like, if Xiang thinks she can build an Empire without that as basis, we will get to see the consequences of a White exploding due to Way Break. Unless she intends to build something other than an empire.
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Depends on how you define Empire, doesn't it? All something needs to be an Empire, technically, is to be some sort of government ruled by an Emperor or Empress. If you start adding other requirements, like how one becomes an Emperor or the empire having hereditary nobility virtue becomes a lot harder...but those don't, in and of themselves, make something an Empire. An Empire prizing the rule of law over individual power is very possible indeed, it's just not very likely.
And even with something like hereditary nobility, there are degrees to this sort of thing. An Empire significantly more virtuous than the current one is not only possible, but pretty doable by someone powerful enough because that's such a low bar. It will never be perfect, but nothing ever is.
"Virtue and the Sage's empire cannot coexist" - Is this a discord thing? Or is it just an interpretation of Jiao's dilemma that got turned into a quote for some reason?
Because I didn't get that from Jiao at all.
He found rot no matter how deep he cut, which to me suggests more that the Empire can't be purified by cutting, much more than that the Empire *can't* be purified.
An alternate method is required, and one that Jiao and An were too along their path to develop.
Because I didn't get that from Jiao at all.
He found rot no matter how deep he cut, which to me suggests more that the Empire can't be purified by cutting, much more than that the Empire *can't* be purified.
An alternate method is required, and one that Jiao and An were too along their path to develop.
Aliya
Someone I might become
- Location
- Kazakhstan
- Pronouns
- They/She/It
But power has no requirement with being virtuous, if anything, its strictly easier to become powerful by being a huge asshole. Relying on a single Enlightened ruler is not only fundamentally a folly even in this setting, but its also a betrayal of Skeleuncle Huisheng.
Plus, an Empire is generally considered an Empire when it has a periphery from which resources are extracted and the core into which they are funneled. Such an arrangement can never be fair or just and, as such, can never be virtuous. If there is no periphery and core, and there is no brutal hierarchy of power, than the Emperor is just a dude in funny hat within an anarcho-communist commune.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm not advocating Empire here (indeed, I think Empires are usually pretty bad), I'm saying making a more just one is possible and not inherently paradoxical or Way-breaking.
This isn't even necessarily true of all real world Empires (though it's admittedly true of most of them), it certainly doesn't have to be true of some hypothetical possible Empire made with virtue in mind. I do think it's telling that the Empress seems to be making vague motions in the direction of letting the Provinces do their own things without intervening at all...possibly as a precursor to allowing them to break away entirely? That would eliminate this problem for her Empire in a very direct way.
That is more a matter of a Centre vs Perifery thing, and is not actually limited to Empires.
Kingdoms/Countries can be argued to be the same, hell cities and villages as well.
The thing about Empires (and countries) in general, is whether something is a two-way street.
Do provinces (or their peoples) have any benefits from being in the Empire? Are they better off for it?
This is what makes an Empire valid.
Gotta get enough Great Spirits whose Laws discourage being a huge asshole, then.
Aliya
Someone I might become
- Location
- Kazakhstan
- Pronouns
- They/She/It
There hasn't been a single "valid" or good empire IRL, and I doubt Yrs would make a "valid" Empire in destiny-verse.
And yes, Imperial periphery->core extractive relationship is, in many ways, just hierarchy writ large. There are qualitative differences, but a plantation owner working a slave to death is poetically symmetric to an Empire sucking its colonies dry.
That's arguable.
USA (eg) are basically an empire (just start calling the president an Emperor) as an entity.
Its indicidual states (kingdoms) and citizens have enjoyed the benefit of being a part of it.
Certainly, an empire a la British Empire which from the start sees other parts of the world as extractive territories will have a different pholosophy guiding it compared to say Pax Romana-era Roman Empire. And naturally, the consequences will differ.
Aliya
Someone I might become
- Location
- Kazakhstan
- Pronouns
- They/She/It
I mean, I have an inkling of a feeling that people of Yemen, Vietnam, Haiti or Iraq will not think that USA is a "valid" Empire. As do a decent chunk of minorities within USA, tbh.
Dude. My hometown (while I was in it) got bombed by USA.
An Empire being valid for its citizens, is a lot more different thing compared to being valid to people outside it.
Aliya
Someone I might become
- Location
- Kazakhstan
- Pronouns
- They/She/It
OK, I have misread what you meant, but you are still only somewhat correct? Like, many people within USA don't really think that USA should exist as it is or that it even can continue existing as it is long term. This is especially prevalent among minorities such as queer people, ethnic minorities (such as Native Americans) and many disabled people. Like, even the core of America is only somewhat well off due to bits and pieces of USA actually secretly being a second, inner tier of periphery.
Also, this convo is off topic so we should probably drop it.
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Check the latest sidestory, that's where we're getting it from.
Glad to see Su Ling before we left, even though it was just a little bit. Althought what little we saw really makes me wish her option had been chosen.
Insights into the Diao is something we dearly need and, above all, I wanted to know more in detail how Su Ling felt after meeting her "sibling".
Looking into higher realms is always interesting, but at the same time it was pretty impersonal. Literally "you were never special to her and couldn't ever be".
Oh well, no use crying over spilled milk.
This part really made me want to do Hidden Scribe next turn; but after Yrs said it's not pre-summit stuff it's clear that it's best to leave it for after the Summit. Which is nice, as it opens up a much needed spot in the next two turns.
Next turn at least is surprisingly cutthroat-free.
From what I have seen, there is a general agreement on the Personal/Professional Actions.
Namely: Imperial Menagerie, A Land Dark and Cruel and House of Ling.
The only doubt is if Sixiang will require a Personal Action or if they will join us in House of Ling or at some other moment. In which case we'll be able to snatch one more Professional Action.
For Cultivation Projects, everyone agrees on doing Thief of Names. Depending on which projects it unlocks, we may even do another one next turn.
The last project of MoSS is the greatest unknown. If it's good enough, then I'm all in for completing the art and getting the Communication Insight.
The main contenders for the last spot are: FFS (Ice and Dust or the new project), LFWT (Four Winds Joy) and Primacy of Beasts.
As a fan of BKSD, I'm leaning towards Primacy. But that highly depends on FFS's new project.
Insights into the Diao is something we dearly need and, above all, I wanted to know more in detail how Su Ling felt after meeting her "sibling".
Looking into higher realms is always interesting, but at the same time it was pretty impersonal. Literally "you were never special to her and couldn't ever be".
Oh well, no use crying over spilled milk.
This part really made me want to do Hidden Scribe next turn; but after Yrs said it's not pre-summit stuff it's clear that it's best to leave it for after the Summit. Which is nice, as it opens up a much needed spot in the next two turns.
Next turn at least is surprisingly cutthroat-free.
From what I have seen, there is a general agreement on the Personal/Professional Actions.
Namely: Imperial Menagerie, A Land Dark and Cruel and House of Ling.
The only doubt is if Sixiang will require a Personal Action or if they will join us in House of Ling or at some other moment. In which case we'll be able to snatch one more Professional Action.
For Cultivation Projects, everyone agrees on doing Thief of Names. Depending on which projects it unlocks, we may even do another one next turn.
The last project of MoSS is the greatest unknown. If it's good enough, then I'm all in for completing the art and getting the Communication Insight.
The main contenders for the last spot are: FFS (Ice and Dust or the new project), LFWT (Four Winds Joy) and Primacy of Beasts.
As a fan of BKSD, I'm leaning towards Primacy. But that highly depends on FFS's new project.
I think there are issues with using the biggest and most impressive examples of a category and generalizing to how the category works in general. They usually didn't get to be the biggest and most impressive by doing the same things as everyone else.
Lots of empires implode at their first major defeat, because the army they use to fight other polities is also the tool they use to extract resources from their periphery, and so once it's smashed, the empire falls apart. Rome survived multiple major defeats specifically because their systems of extraction were nonstandard.
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