Yeah at the end of the day this is one technique in an art that will always be about communicating with Spirits and while not specialized for it high realm cultivators too. This technique isn't the part of the art responsible for communication its responsible for setting the basis for a conversation to even take place by allowing the user to survive the environmental nature of spirits, we were just voting on how we wish to develop our literal bastion again the environment neither option was about offending or suppressing the spirit anymore than holding your breath when going underwater is.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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Right, it's a modification of the existing art.
But that modification could be taken in a more imperial or less imperial direction. We are just saying this choice was a more imperial direction, and are confused by people trying to argue that it wasn't.
Not a catastrophe, but not a thing that didn't happen either.
But that modification could be taken in a more imperial or less imperial direction. We are just saying this choice was a more imperial direction, and are confused by people trying to argue that it wasn't.
Not a catastrophe, but not a thing that didn't happen either.
The option also says through and out, it speaks of avoidance and negation, while Dispersion is acclimation and closer interaction. It's the difference between looking at the ocean from dry land or a boat, and actually going in for a swim. Both scenarios will give similar observations but there will be a difference in expression and intuitive understanding of the water.
It's not about stopping Xia Ren, but rather influencing how others tolerate her presence. Grounding can't reach that high, but Dispersion might and can be selective on what it focuses it's efforts on. Not everything about a high realm poses a threat. I don't think I said anything about stopping direct attacks, though. Neither option does that.
Ling Qi wants to train priests? Let's be clear, Ling Qi is not a priestess, nor is she on that path. She's a spirit walker/talker. The difference? Priests have a formal relationship with the spirits they service. Like that guy who watched over Hanyi's performance, he found her manner strange and unlike the wild/elemental spirits he knows of. Ling Qi, on the other hand, befriends spirits. She can fill in the role of a priestess but that is too restrained for what she wants to be. Ling Qi wants to train people to do what she does and not be so shackled by imperial formality.
What worries me, though it's a bit silly, is that now Raising the Bastion will only work with lower stages 4th realms spirits while Dispersion could have raised it up to middle 4th realm.
I never expected MoSS in general, nor Bastion in particular, to protect much against Sovereigns. Not even 5th realms.
But Grounded may have capped the Spirits that Ling Qi could have communicated with while still being Green at the middle of the 4th realm while Dispersion would have allowed her to withstand peak 4th realm effects, even with difficulty.
We are never going to bring red and yellows with us to negotiate with the important spirits, and whatever passive, permanent effect Grounded grants could have been achieved with Meng Geomancy anyway.
I just don't see much the point, regardless of the philosophical spin.
I never expected MoSS in general, nor Bastion in particular, to protect much against Sovereigns. Not even 5th realms.
But Grounded may have capped the Spirits that Ling Qi could have communicated with while still being Green at the middle of the 4th realm while Dispersion would have allowed her to withstand peak 4th realm effects, even with difficulty.
We are never going to bring red and yellows with us to negotiate with the important spirits, and whatever passive, permanent effect Grounded grants could have been achieved with Meng Geomancy anyway.
I just don't see much the point, regardless of the philosophical spin.
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
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Grounding is working woth the original principles of Bastion, except with an enhanced scope. If it didn't work,then it's you face environmenal effects. If it worked, you didn't. Grounding builds on that. And there are many ways to explain it without immediately calling it imperial.
Your understanding of the world and environment doesn't match up to what the environment is, so you die. You look at Zeqing and think it's just a normal winter storm and use Bastion, but it's not, so the negation doesn't work. You use Bastion and realise that oh, it's endless winter that wants to consume all. When you use Bastion, it works.
It relies on your ability to understand the world around you. Pigeonholing it into one thing is a disservice to both options. Both of them are trying to understand and work with the spirits around them. That's MoSS' whole schtick. Understanding is in both options.
Imperial methods aren't about understanding. And arguing that one is "more imperial" ignores the whole point of the art and this one particular tech.
Anyway, as someone said, don't spread salt after the vote is over. I was supporting Dispersion and arguing for it before I wss convinced by others. Always argue for your points before and during the vote, not after.
Oliver_Twister
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I wouldn't be worried about that. If we're in a situation where we can't even nullify the passive environmental effects of our opponent, the. We have no business being in that situation. And everyone will can rightfully say that we are playing eith dangerous things.
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I'm not actually sure we know enough about imperial methods to make this claim. Imperial geomancy, for example, requires an extraordinary amount of understanding. So it feels like you are treating 'imperial' as a synonym for 'bad' rather than a philosophy of it's own, with the comprehensive rejection of the idea.
'More imperial' is just a vector. Kinda in the same way that being in Arizona rather than California is being more eastern, even though both are western states. In this case, 'more imperial' is just about coming closer to imposing an artificial environment over the natural (spiritual) environment rather than changing yourself to better survive it. It's not a moral judgement, it's just meant to be descriptive.
But since being aware of, and honest about, the meaning of the choices we make has a strong influence on how smoothly future choices go, it seems worth getting people on the same page here.
Ling Qi hesitated before saying priestess, because while similar to what she does (communicate with wild spirits) it is not the same. The spirits on her land are not just hazards to be appeased with a yearly ceremony or culled for parts. They are also potential teachers, friends, siblings and even lovers, if her people follow her path. Which is not the ministry approved imperial way.
CedeTheBees
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I'm salty too but there's literally no point to this now that the vote's done
? Priest does not automatically mean someone following peakaboo ways.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny) Original - Users' Choice!
Why must you pester me so, lordling. I am here on but obligation. I have no interest in whatever games it is you wish to play with the court.Leave this old man be! You imagine that you are the first to ask me just what it is that we think we are preserving you smirking rascal, you arrogant...
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ReignTorrential
Save Your Crown for a Rainy Day
It's so easy to make arguments on either side about which option is "more imperial". Here's one in the other direction: by increasing the number of allies LQ can protect, Grounding helps foster a Weilu attitude towards spirit relations, which is more communal, as opposed to Dispersion, which tends towards the more imperial dynamic of a smaller elite band of Cultivators engaging with the passively dangerous spirit.
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...mmm.
And this is why I say it is important that we be in the same page, regardless of which vote wins. Because trying to float the idea that less interaction means more community I think falls apart on its own, and I think it's likely to lead to bad choices in the future if it becomes consensus.
Personally, I have been coming around to the idea that Ling needs to learn what the weilu did differently than the imperials, such that one is a world-class empire and the others are a myth. Building something that survives is probably going to require taking the long-term portion from imperial rather than weilu philosophy.
I'd just prefer we own it when we do lean in that direction.
And this is why I say it is important that we be in the same page, regardless of which vote wins. Because trying to float the idea that less interaction means more community I think falls apart on its own, and I think it's likely to lead to bad choices in the future if it becomes consensus.
Personally, I have been coming around to the idea that Ling needs to learn what the weilu did differently than the imperials, such that one is a world-class empire and the others are a myth. Building something that survives is probably going to require taking the long-term portion from imperial rather than weilu philosophy.
I'd just prefer we own it when we do lean in that direction.
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That guy is centuries distant from the modern day. I don't think the ministries existed in his time. He's a priest, but not an imperial priest. His attitude is much more similar to Ling Qi than the girl we met on Hanyi's tour.
The technique is not static. It is being refined and the result creates hard boundaries between man and spirit. That is imperial dogma.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
That's an incredible reach considering the text of the vote contradicts the statement.
Not allowing harmful effects to reach the people under her care isn't this super Imperial idea, it's basically something every human civilization tries hence why wards are a thing. This is the equivalent of telling people they shouldn't wear heavy furs when it's winter to keep themselves warm.
Oliver_Twister
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Weilu methods are about living within spirits and nature. Imperial methods are about living outside of nature and spirits because man is not barbaric.
For the Weilu methods, you have to understand the spirits to really work with them. It's mostly built on pacts and personal bonds and is thus difficult to scale up. For the imperial methods to work, you don't try to understand the spirit.
I understand and agree that they're different philosophies. But somehow, someway, "imperial"got brought into this saltfest as a way to make one method look worse than the other, when it wasn't brought up in any of the arguments iirc, so here we are.
I agree that imperial geomancy requires an incredible amount of understanding of geomantic principles, but not of spirits, their natures, and their effects on the land. Like Wang Lian said, humans are the inheritors of the Earth and shaping it is their birthright. They have a deep understanding of shaping it, regardless of what had been there before. Weilu methods are about living in harmony with the world as it is, which includes spirits and nature. It also requires understanding of nature and spirits. They're different fields and philosophies and this have different understandings.
Grounding is still trying to understand spirits. It's just taking a forest view (using an understanding of a spirit' environment to understand its nature and this nullify their passive environmental effects) compared to Dispersion, and that's okay, imo.
There is no less interaction. If anything, this may make MoSS appear even more on the narrative for training our version of the ministry.
Ling Qi does not like taking leadership roles a lot, even though she's very good at them. This is still a Weilu method. That's why Jiao said he feels sorry for the people we'll drag along with us to go spiritseeking. It's why he believes that the Ministry of Spiritual Affairs won't like us.
This won't suddenly stop Ling Qi from believing that spirits are family.
Need I remind you that Xin is the one recommending the two paths that weirdo Weilus who use this old art normally take with its development?
Heavy furs would have been Dispersion, because even then you would have been fighting back the cold with your body heat, heard the howling of the wind and felt it racing by, nipping at the parts of your body that aren't completely covered. Grounding is staying inside an insulated house. The cold of winter is an idea you imagine from seeing the snow fall outside your window, but you don't know what it actually feels like.
Both options mitigated harm, but Grounding was the choice that uses separation to reach that goal.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
So your arguement now is that housing is a Imperial idea and we shouldn't do it? I suppose next Ling Qi should get rid of her Dress since it also protects her from the harmful effects of spirits.
We aren't nomads, and even the Cloud Tribes have yurts to keep the elements away.
Do you not understand how metaphors work?
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
Of course I do, I'm running with yours after all. I'm just stating that the idea of protecting people from the harmful effects of spirits is somehow innately Imperial when every other civilization we've met does the same thing is ridiculous and a product of your reaching attempts to portray the winning vote as this terrible thing when the text directly refutes your assertion.
You're the one that asserted Grounding is Imperial, and then made the metaphor that Grounding is much like a House.
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We don't know how imperial geomancy does it, because we haven't looked, but my intuition is that to cancel something out or nullify it you need to understand it quite well.
I think this is conflating 'horrible thing' with 'imperial' and then working backwards to claim that saying something is imperial is to say that it is awful.
There are good imperial things.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
And I never said there are no good Imperial things, just that the way people spoke of the aftermath of the vote framed Grounding as being one of the bad Imperial things. Besides, you can't deny this thread hates Imperial Conservatives, hence why they're given the name Peakaboos, and their treatment of spirits.
This is not a claim I made on the spot, I'm just running with what the person I was replying to said. See the following reaction after the vote was closed:
You're strawmaning and taking the metaphor literally to be disingenuous. No one has questioned that both techniques protect people. My metaphor was equating Grounding to complete insulation (like a house in winter) that negatively impacts communication and understanding between parties by creating a gap that cannot be crossed. I've stated this multiple times.
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True, but I kinda regard this as protag centered morality, since we've gotten a lot of insight into the old weilu traditions and human-like spirits, but almost nothing from the imperial perspective except edicts and demands. We don't know why imperials work the way they do, which leaves it looking like pure bigotry and prejudice.
As mentioned above, I'm not sure that is actually the case.
Reading the early stuff again I noted that apparently humans are the only creatures that do not normally interact with qi, and need an outside impetus to kick off cultivation. Given the way that increasingly pure Qi seems to be associated with the stars and the spirits who want to destroy the world, while cultivating impurities is associated with gestalts (and so seems to favor increasing the world so the gestalts can be larger) there are some very deep "Are we the baddies?" questions buried even in the cultivation that imperials and weilu share. (Or do they share it? Did weilu use spirit stones?)
So I'm really not sure that pro-spirit isn't ultimately anti-world. Even though it's looking like the cloud tribe alliance is going to be the place where that is explored, not the dragon peaks.