Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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I mean LQ is also kind of very low maintenance in that she'll be happy spending most of her time meditating and doing push-ups on her own

(low maintenance in the sense of social interaction that is. Not financially :V )

Until recently she spent that time with Sixiang so she wasn't really alone, per se

Uh the guy was described in one sentence as a kind old man who she stole a blanket from. 'Closest thing to a parent while living on the streets' is a bit far.

She didn't really have much in the way of parent figures on the streets. Its like being in someone's "top 3 parents", its not a big statement of quality.
 
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All choices close off future choices. Protecting choice has to mean protecting even those you disagree with to some extent or you're not actually protecting choice at all.

You can probably stop someone from doing something immediately suicidal, and you can present information and argument, but if someone just wants to marry someone else who's a fundamentally bad choice for them, you're very rarely gonna be able to stop them within the context of protecting choices.
I mean sure. Like, to take an example close to our heart we're not going to stop Xiulan being self-destructive because trying would do more harm than good and it's better to just support her instead.

But just because we're not that controlling doesn't mean we'd be as limited as you worry imo.

(though with the marriage argument I think that only applies to commoners. If we want to stop one of our kids from marrying another noble it's very easy since they need us to negotiate with the other family :V

though it's true we can't stop them from eloping)
 
I mean sure. Like, to take an example close to our heart we're not going to stop Xiulan being self-destructive because trying would do more harm than good and it's better to just support her instead.

But just because we're not that controlling doesn't mean we'd be as limited as you worry imo.

(though with the marriage argument I think that only applies to commoners. If we want to stop one of our kids from marrying another noble it's very easy since they need us to negotiate with the other family :V

though it's true we can't stop them from eloping)

I'm not actually worried about it at all, I'm just acknowledging the actual downside of going with protecting Choice, which is very real, IMO. Personally, it's not a down side I mind having, but it limits our actions in several ways that we should keep in mind.
 
The other thing to note is Ling Qi's slow realization that she made a choice that put her through hell for several years, but her reasons for choosing that way were mistaken. I don't think we've ever seen anyone ask anything like "would you have been better off if someone returned you to your mom the next day, negating your choice?"

Also, re:self destructive behavior and Ling Qi's reaction to it, I assume Su Ling had already been discussed?
 
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Part of the thing is you could ignore all this entirely, and LQ just still wouldn't be inclined to be particularly controlling in large part because her and her mother's experiences have taught her that that's counterproductive.
 
Part of the thing is you could ignore all this entirely, and LQ just still wouldn't be inclined to be particularly controlling in large part because her and her mother's experiences have taught her that that's counterproductive.

It just hurts to see LQ hurt herself and those around her again and again because she views herself as fundamentally awful and to see the thread support that.

It is certainly realistic but damn it makes the thread unpleasant to read.
 
The other thing to note is Ling Qi's slow realization that she made a choice that put her through hell for several years, but her reasons for choosing that way were mistaken. I don't think we've ever seen anyone ask anything like "would you have been better off if someone returned you to your mom the next day, negating your choice?"

Uh...I'm pretty sure this is just flatly not correct. Like, Ling Qi left because she was worried she would be forced to be a prostitute like her mother, full stop. She was very likely 100% correct in that assessment from everything we've seen. She also believed her mother was grooming her for that fate (which was the part where she was incorrect...or more likely lying to herself to avoid the guilt of deserting her mother), but even her mother acknowledged that she might well not have been able to prevent Ling Qi from being forced into prostitution if she'd stayed. Like, her mom would've tried to protect her, but she couldn't even protect herself.

I'm pretty sure that, given her goal of avoiding becoming a prostitute, Ling Qi made the objectively correct choice in running away.

Also, re:self destructive behavior and Ling Qi's reaction to it, I assume Su Ling had already been discussed?

I don't think so, no.

It just hurts to see LQ hurt herself and those around her again and again because she views herself as fundamentally awful and to see the thread support that.

It is certainly realistic but damn it makes the thread unpleasant to read.

Ling Qi is a much better person than she sometimes gives herself credit for, but that doesn't mean she's wrong about what her flaws are, she just mostly ignores her better qualities and overfocuses on them. Which is to say that just because Ling Qi talks herself down more than she deserves doesn't mean she's completely wrong in all ways and should be ignored completely.
 
Ling Qi is a much better person than she sometimes gives herself credit for, but that doesn't mean she's wrong about what her flaws are, she just mostly ignores her better qualities and overfocuses on them. Which is to say that just because Ling Qi talks herself down more than she deserves doesn't mean she's completely wrong in all ways and should be ignored completely.

It also doesn't mean she's correct. What evidence do you have that she's actually possessive and controlling?
 
I am looking forward to Qi getting some self confidence and realizing she's not a bad person, and I definitely think she's starting to get it. She's starting to see herself as she should, she now realizes that she's beautiful and she did stand up to Grandpa nightmare when he called her controlling and said her light touch didn't matter. Hopefully Sixiang can keep her off that self deprecating path when they meet up again as they've said that they hate it when Qi puts herself down.
 
Simple way to illustrate how Choice interacts with conflict - the Golden Fields group blowing up.

Xiulan wants to marry Han Jian.
Han Jian wants to do right by his clan, which is fundamentally incompatible with marrying Xiulan.
The conflict blocks both of them from getting anything done until it is addressed.
Action taken is is harm mitigation, as there is no method of resolution available that does not greatly harm all three parties(Ling Qi and the two disputing friends), so Ling Qi instead works on providing a diversion and supporting independent avenues of growth.

Until Xiulan resolved it by choosing to face heaven and eat lightning, then cutting ties.

Which is how I see it playing out.
Where possible, maximize potential futures.
Where this is not possible, prioritize in group over out group.
Where conflict is between in group members, proceed to extended conflict resolution:
-Is the conflict due to miscommunication, incomplete information or temporarily impaired judgement? If so, resolve those, then revisit the conflict.
-Is the conflict fundamental in nature, or accessorial to the true purpose? If the ends are not in conflict, but the means are in conflict, then assist in navigating alternative means, and then revisit the conflict.
-Can the ends be changed? Would changing the ends result in more agency than the conflict or less? People can change and be persuaded, the conflict between Han Jian and Xiulan was ultimately resolved by Xiulan abandoning her pursuit.
-What do you and other members of the in group think of the conflict individually? Will they act on their opinion?

Ultimately, this does not bar intervention, only that you can no longer justify intervention as protection.
Ling Qi is free to talk people out of facing potentially deadly tribulation, but she cannot consider it as protecting them if it denies them agency, only protecting her own feelings.
 
Simple way to illustrate how Choice interacts with conflict - the Golden Fields group blowing up.

But this isn't really about Choice, this is about Protection.

In the Golden Fields mess we decided that we wanted to protect our relationship with Xiulan and so acted to maintain it as the group implode. This included letting her hurt herself as pushing back too hard would have destroyed that relationship. Rather we acted to help her insofar as we could while respecting her wishes and this ultimately resulted in us both going our different ways.

Yet, despite this, we remain in touch and the relationship that we sought to protect endures.

This is what it means for LQ to protect her world for she knows on a soul deep level that trying to seal it in amber will only destroy it. People's wills need to be respected and things need to change.

Saying that Choice is the most important bit is to say that Xiulan being able to hurt herself is more important than our relationship with her and that's bizarre. Of course we'd prefer her to be less self destructive but we don't get that choice, we can only respect her own identity and let her know that we are there for her.
 
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I feel there's something possibly missing from this debate, though I don't keep meticulous track of every comment in a thread this size, so pardon me if it's been brought up before, but...

Protection being the act of preserving Choices does not inherently prevent Ling Qi from Choosing To Not Protect something when we deem the value of blocking choices to be higher than the value of preserving choices..
 
we deem the value of blocking choices to be higher than the value of preserving choices..

I think that's the point under discussion. Do we value preserving choice higher than other things or not? If your answer is to judge by other things, the implication is that choice is A factor, not The factor, for judging what defense is for.
 
It'd be cool if she attains the contrapositive insight, that attacking enemies means depriving them of Choice,
I'm not sure that's necessary; I think we've used the contrapositive of insights we have before without burning insight slots on them.

I'm not sure I'm that into embracing the crushing anxiety of seeing how every choice we make closes off all other possible lives we could have lived as we helplessly hurtle towards death, but it is a valid branch of philosophy that LQ does touch on. There's definitely stuff that could be explored there.
I see Ling Qi has a path to summoning up alternate versions of herself to make attacks, or whatever. Is this where I mention Ashen Shadow Art or Archery?
 
"That the most common threats to the Empire are the men most like its founder," Jiao scoffed. It was enlightening, full access to the imperial archives. To the deepest depths where the sheer density and age of stored knowledge warped the world and bled into the realms of thoughts and dreams. That all of their great works, their civilization, stemmed from such a simplistic and thoughtless man.
There were many who had built the Peaks, built the Empire, but the one remembered and revered by all was the bloody handed, lusting tyrant.
The worst of humans and the worst of dragons, concentrated in one person.
 
Turn 17: Arc 5-7
"Protection aims to preserve Choice, whether your own, or that of those you are protecting," Ling Qi said thoughtfully.

"Not an answer I have heard before," Elder Ying admitted. "You have come to some interesting insights, dancing in the shallows of the Dream."

"It's my answer for now," Ling Qi said. "I… know its more complex than that. That there are a hundred ways one could pick at it, but I think its the best I can do."

"I wonder, what do you do when those beneath you choose to hurt themselves?" Elder Ying said kindly.

"I… it depends on whether they are hurting themselves or I am only perceiving it that way," Ling Qi said with furrowed brow. "I know many people I know think I hurt myself, putting myself in danger, but…"

"Hm, you've put some thought into it at least," Elder Ying said. "It is true that a protector can crush those they protect. That must be confronted, if you wish to have your compassion."

Ling Qi considered her. "You are not without that."

"I'm not. I am so… so fond of you children, you disciples. It is a delight to see you grow, it is the worst pain to see you die," Elder Ying said sadly. "I care for the children and disciples, more deeply than my own life. You understand?"

Ling Qi thought she did. The Elder was alone. She cared, and cared deeply. She would place herself between her disciples and any harm. But it was a distant care. She cared for her disciples. All of them. She looked at her Elder and saw a protector and a teacher, and that was the all of her. There was nothing outside of that. Ling Qi wondered if she was even capable of having a 'favorite'. Of being anything closer than a distant and kindly mentor.

She suspected that Elder Ying could not. Her Way would not allow it.

+1 Community XP

…You had to sacrifice things, to reach the peak. She knew that. She thought she had accepted that. But until this moment she wasn't sure she really had. No matter how clever she was, how lucky she was. She would have to sacrifice things upon the altar of her Way. There was no method which did not take sacrifice, in one form or another.

After all, their world was built on it. The Nameless Mother and Father were nameless for that reason.

"Holding on to everything, refusing any sacrifice can only end in failure or broken Ways," Elder Ying said. "But in the end, you choose what you will lose and what you will gain. The price of power can only be determined by you," Elder Ying said. "Now, I do believe the lesson is wrapping up. I am glad, that you chose to come here. Do not think I am not."

"I understand," Ling Qi said. "Elder Ying, I am thankful for your advice, and your service to the Sect. I will be leaving my family in your care for a little longer."

"And I will shelter them, like all the other lives in the village, until you may do so yourself," Elder Ying said. "Good fortune disciple. I truly hope you can solve your conundrums."

Ling Qi bowed her head and the image of the Elder beside her disappeared, leaving only the lecturing woman in the center of the room, wrapping up the class with far less cutting questions for the new disciples to consider.

Ling Qi rose to her feet with the rest, bowed her head in respect, and took her leave.

***​
Ling Qi returned to the plaza below to find Hanyi. She'd left her junior sister out, knowing that she wouldn't be able to sit calmly through the length of such a lesson. She had given her strict instruction to remain here, and not pester anyone too much. She had plenty of material to study herself for her next concert, which Ling Qi had hoped would keep her… somewhat occupied.

What she found was unexpected. There was no trouble at all. Hanyi sat on a bench beneath a peach tree, swinging her bare feet happily back and forth.

There was an older woman beside her, reading one of her lesson scrolls aloud. Ling Qi saw the red and blue dress, the silver hair.

"And that is what this passage means, dear. It's a bit flowery, but it seems this mountain here appreciates a poetic flourish in his intermediaries," Xin said.

"Ugh, what a pain. I guess I work the song into a formal meter, but those are boring," Hanyi huffed.

Xin looked up at Ling Qi and smiled softly. "Well it looks like you can put it aside for now."

"Oh! Sis! You're done with the boring stuff?" Hanyi exclaimed, following Xin's gaze to her. "Auntie was helping me out a lot!"

Xin tittered. "Oh it was nothing."

"Thank you very much," Ling Qi said.

"There's no need to be so formal, even if it has been some time. Could I ask you to spend some time with me though dear? I would hate to miss your parting," Xin said, passing the scroll back to Hanyi."

"Of course, though I sent a message to Elder Jiao and he did not respond," Ling Qi said.

"That stubborn old curmudgeon," Xin sighed. "Managing to hide that from me… his wounds have made him even more petty these last months."

"I'm sure Elder Jiao is busy," Ling Qi said.

"He's not," Xin said in a deadpan. "At least not for one of our ability."

Ling Qi fell silent, having no retort to that.

"It was a bold thing you did, in my siblings domain," Xin said idly, not allowing the silence to become awkward.

"Huh?" Hanyi said, looking between them.

Ling Qi folded her arms slipping her hands into her sleeves. "The… project I was working on with Sixiang, Hanyi."

Her junior sister's expression scrunched up. "Oh. Right, when is the bug coming back anyway."

"Eventually," Ling Qi said, glancing over at Xin.

"My little cousin stopped by, they are fine. Pestering some of the archivists and off duty disciples," Xin said said. She rose to her feet. "Why don't we walk."

Ling Qi inclined her head. Then she looked to Hanyi…

Who held up her hands. "I'll stay and study. You look like you're gonna talk about Big Sis stuff."

Ling Qi sighed. "When did my cute little sister become wise too?"

She puffed out her chest. "A Lady has to be witty and smart too!"

"They do," Xin said, amused. "I left some notes for you dear, they should help you understand."

"Thanks!" Hanyi chirped, unrolling her scroll. One might actually think she was a diligent young miss in that moment.

Ling Qi turned away, and followed Xin down the tree lined path at the edge of the plaza. When they were well away, she spoke "Were you the one who answered, when I begged for aid?"

Xin hummed, her somewhat garish dress blowing in a phantom breeze. "Not entirely. I felt it, but there are other spirits of the Hidden Moon then I. I am an archivist, defending knowledge is a part of who I am but gathering it is my core. You tapped into something else."

"Seeking and keeping," Ling Qi said.

"Pithy, but not incorrect," Xin said lightly. "And you have been seeking some heady secrets indeed."

"Why is that tomb a trial site?" Ling Qi asked, referring to the physical location of Huisheng's corpse. "Something like that…"

"It's quite indestructible, for a start," Xin said. "At least without power that would cause quite an upheaval, and once the cavern split open during Ogodei's invasion, it proved impossible to seal off entirely as well. But more than that it is inactive, save for the reagents it bleeds. You may not be the first, but you have certainly triggered a rare reaction."

"He did say there had been another. Do you know who it was, or how long ago?" Ling Qi asked curiously.

"Hm, I wonder," Xin regarded her intently as they walked, and Ling Qi began to realize she could not sense the plaza nor the end of the path, only a pale gray sky and the way stretching ever on in front and behind. "For a promising student… a small secret. The last was recent by cultivators measure, a mere few centuries ago. A man who swept the province into turmoil, whipped up the youth of the clans into following a radiant star of hope and wrath. A man who stood among the four just beneath that radiance as it burned the webs choking Xiangmen."

Ling Qi frowned, the four close retainers of the Duchess. Diao Lingqin, Xia Ren, the matriarch of the Wang… and the Patriarch of the Jia. Of them only the last made sense. That was…

Well, it wasn't as if she wasn't going to have to investigate all of them eventually, given Renxiang's goals.

"You could have just said his name, if you were going to spell it out like that," Ling Qi said, smiling faintly.

"And miss the fun of a dramatic speech? Ling Qi dear, what have you been doing in the dreaming realms?"

Ling Qi let out a brief laugh as they continued walking the twisting and infinite path, the grey cover of clouds broke, revealing an infinite expanse of stars, with only the black circle of the new moon to interrupt it. "May I ask where we are going?"

"To my home of course."

"You mean Elder Jiao's…"

"Our home," Xin said lightly. "I have as much right to guests as he."

Ling Qi inclined her head. Of course she did. Ling Qi doubted Elder Jiao would even contest that for all he might grouse about it.

Turning a corner on the starlit path, the silhouette of a manor came into view in the mist, a sprawling two story complex set against the base of a low slumping mountain, set back among the trees. The ominous air of dense qi around it made Ling Qi's hair stand on end and her skin prickle.

Then, she saw it properly, and she felt her expression instinctively scrunch up in disgust. Lurid eye searing pink. Every roof tile was that shade. The walls themselves were a splotchy gradient of bright greens and yellows that seemed to pulse under her vision, a sickening and hypnotic shifting of color that made her stomach cramp up as if she had eaten something bad. Wings of the manor jutted out at strange angles, and structures rose without rhyme or reason. There a six story pointed tower, there a field of distorted plants encased by a sprawling structure of frosted glass, there a rustic hall of stacked logs and bundled straw.

It was… absolute chaos. Only the vines growing everything sprouting silver flowers, lent it any elegance at all, and even that only made the rest worse in contrast!

"My lord husband has a unique way of welcoming guests," Xin said dryly, observing her expression.

"I… why does it make me feel ill, like that. It's just shapes and colors. A formation, no… it's not even that," Ling Qi said feeling queasy, she held her hand up to her mouth.

"If one Master's geomancy, knows everything you should do. Is it not easy to do the opposite," Xin laughed, taking her hand to guide her down the path toward the… manor. "Of course, we're both a bit petty if I'm honest. It gets less offensive inside."

Ling Qi shuddered keeping her eyes on her feet as they passed boundary walls that made her eyes itch, not just from the searing color, but because somehow there was something wrong about the angle of the structure.

They passed through a door that Ling Qi could not entirely perceive, twisted as it was, parallel to proper space. She could not have said whether it was set in the wall, the ceiling or the floor of the manor porch. But the dim hall inside, while still painted luridly, was at least properly aligned with the world.

"We may be walking a moment, so let me ask you. I can sense some turmoil in your cultivation. I can lend an ear, if you like."

Ling Qi nodded, unsurprised that the powerful moon spirit could sense her troubles. Though she had found insights from the nightmare, from rejection its dichotomy of control… there were still doubts, concerns.

[ ] Speak on the nature of power, of the innate ambition of dominance and command that underlies Sovereignty (Additional Exploration and XP to Power Concept)

[ ] Speak on the nature of isolation, of the innate division between things, of the lonely void that grew with each realm. (Additional Exploration and XP to Isolation Concept)
 
Then, she saw it properly, and she felt her expression instinctively scrunch up in disgust. Lurid eye searing pink. Every roof tile was that shade. The walls themselves were a splotchy gradient of bright greens and yellows that seemed to pulse under her vision, a sickening and hypnotic shifting of color that made her stomach cramp up as if she had eaten something bad. Wings of the manor jutted out at strange angles, and structures rose without rhyme or reason. There a six story pointed tower, there a field of distorted plants encased by a sprawling structure of frosted glass, there a rustic hall of stacked logs and bundled straw.

It was… absolute chaos. Only the vines growing everything sprouting silver flowers, lent it any elegance at all, and even that only made the rest worse in contrast!

Only true masters can create such sublime Anti-Aesthetics.

I'm thinking Isolation here tbh, that's far more core to our cultivation, it's our sword. Plus it ties into the bonds we fear sacrificing on our upward ascent.
 
Isolation seems the most fitting, since paradoxically Jiao and Xin appear to have wrapped themselves up in it as they've settled down in the Argent Sect.
 
[X] Speak on the nature of power, of the innate ambition of dominance and command that underlies Sovereignty (Additional Exploration and XP to Power Concept)

[ ] Speak on the nature of isolation, of the innate division between things, of the lonely void that grew with each realm. (Additional Exploration and XP to Isolation Concept)


Hmmm, I'm unsure
 
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It's going to be some hard choices when we come to what gets sacrificed, for sure. The contrast here between the duchess's wife and her unstinting empathy, and Elder Ying with her unending protection, is interesting. Both seem to be very close in spirit to Ling Qi, with paths focused on making things better for other people, but the implementations seem almost opposite of each other's. One unable to really distinguish between individuals, the other unable to see beyond the crushing scale of knowing everyone as an individual.

I wonder if Ling Qi will become unable to recognize people except as their communications to eachother- ie, the silent don't exist.
 
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