Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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Wow. Meng Dizi would have hated the Cai.
I mean yes, but he would've probably worked that into his tirade at this nameless imperial something like this:
"And now we are ruled by a soulless Tyrant of Radiance who scorns the teachings of the Moon and seeks to bring all the Emerald Seas fully under her dominion with a legion of clockwork soldiers, but even that unfathomable monster knows the value of leaving us be so long as we grant her her due, unlike you grasping pale imitations of dragons."
 
Increasing infrastructure allows for specialization of labour and in the long run dramatically improves the quality of life for everyone! Stagnant adherence to ancient contracts made without regard for modern circumstances means things will never meaningfully improve!

While some parts of this old man's dao and thesis regarding cultural self-determinism versus assimilation have merit, I reject his supporting arguments.
 
I mean, since he never mentioned Ogodei or the backbone of the Bai's power being broken, I have to assume that Dizi had the enormous gonads to openly talk shit about the Hui in the days when their power and fear were still intact. I doubt he would have allowed being impolitic to stop him from advocating for his beliefs.

> Last records of the Priest Meng Dizi, during the reign of Emperor Si, later executed for sedition against the Duke of Hui.

Given they actually killed him for it, yes I imagine so.
 
Increasing infrastructure allows for specialization of labour and in the long run dramatically improves the quality of life for everyone! Stagnant adherence to ancient contracts made without regard for modern circumstances means things will never meaningfully improve!

While some parts of this old man's dao and thesis regarding cultural self-determinism versus assimilation have merit, I reject his supporting arguments.

In real life I agree with you, but this is fantasy xianxia deathworld. It's quite possible that increasing population and infrastructure would just cause conflict with the environment, an environment which can bite back and results in an effective state of low scale war, resulting in deaths and generally putting stress on the system which negatively impacts quality of life. It's possible that doing a wood elf impression and living in harmony with the environment results in a greater quality of life, especially if you expand beyond just humans and include spirits and beasts as people.

I expect the traditional system has flaws too of course, this is from the perspective of a high ranking Meng after all. Mortals could have it worse off, or maybe they were appropriately protected and creating badly made cities made them worse off. In the end unless we cut the environment in two and try both cases and then evaluate the quality of life from top to bottom of both resulting civilisations we won't be able to definitively point to either and say 'this is better', and that's never going to happen and even if it did the result could still be argued over.

Best case is probably the Wang dream, take the best of both, cut away the stuff that doesn't work and apply that. But when you have two sides arguing theirs is better and you don't know which parts of each method work better in a given situation... it's incredibly difficult to even begin to implement. The Wang have presumably had the idea for centuries after all.
 
Increasing infrastructure allows for specialization of labour and in the long run dramatically improves the quality of life for everyone! Stagnant adherence to ancient contracts made without regard for modern circumstances means things will never meaningfully improve!
While I agree with the argument, such rationale seems to miss the core of Meng Dizi's counterpoints. He is speaking from a place where he is comfortable with the quality of life for everyone, content with how things are, and sees no need for improvement. Any argument about improvements and increasing quality of life has no meaningful intersection with his stance, which is what I think many of the Peak nobles who try their rhetoric against him find.
 
TBH, the big thing we've learned is that Cai Shenhua isn't actually against the Weilu Ways, but the biggest dead horse she ritually mutilates co-opted them so hard that everyone else thinks she hates the Old Weilu Ways in their entirety, rather than just the assholes who abused it the most.

She's all for modernization, the issue is that basically nobody is willing to try and update the old traditions to the modern day.

Until Ling Qi pops in and gives proof that Shenhua is actually fine with this as long as you're not using it as an excuse to be a Hui basic bitch
 
Increasing infrastructure allows for specialization of labour and in the long run dramatically improves the quality of life for everyone! Stagnant adherence to ancient contracts made without regard for modern circumstances means things will never meaningfully improve!
To an extent you are correct, but you kinda miss the entire core of what Meng Dizi is getting at.

The Imperials want to separate the old clans from their kin because some are not people by Imperial reckoning, and others were forcefully conquered and/or killed because, again, they weren't considered important. The Imperials are bringing in their own systems, saying of course they're right and you're stupid for suggesting otherwise. And look at what he pointed out about the Imperial 'progress.' People stuffed into cities that are rampant with corruption and disease, spirits killed as their homes are violated and destroyed. That's the rub about Imperialism, is that it can be the most well intentioned thing in the world, and it will still wind up destroying whatever was there before as turns it into a mirror of its own ideas.

Celestial Peaks and Emerald Seas are different environments, different cultures. Just because the Peaks believe something is good does not mean it is, or that they have the right to impose it on others.
 
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Increasing infrastructure allows for specialization of labour and in the long run dramatically improves the quality of life for everyone! Stagnant adherence to ancient contracts made without regard for modern circumstances means things will never meaningfully improve!

While some parts of this old man's dao and thesis regarding cultural self-determinism versus assimilation have merit, I reject his supporting arguments.
Long term, yes.
This does little to console the thousands upon thousands who get crushed on the wheel of progress in the transition period.
And as others have pointed out, the argument was not about progress versus stagnation, but about cultural imperialism, of destruction of someones way of life for no reason other than it not being the way of the Peaks, of conformity for the sake of conformity.
 
To an extent you are correct, but you kinda miss the entire core of what Meng Dizi is getting at.

The Imperials want to separate the old clans from their kin because some are not people by Imperial reckoning, and others were forcefully conquered and or killed because, again, they weren't considered important. The Imperials are bringing in their own systems, saying of course they're right and you're stupid for suggesting otherwise. And look at what he pointed out about the Imperial 'progress.' People stuffed into cities that are rampant with corruption and disease, spirits killed as their homes are violated and destroyed. That's the rub about Imperialism, is that it can be the most well intentioned thing in the world, and it will still wind up destroying whatever was there before as turns it into a mirror of its own ideas.

Celestial Peaks and Emerald Seas are different environments, different cultures. Just because the Peaks believe something is good does not mean it is, or that they have the right to impose it on others.

Another thing to add to this is the Imperials didn't even tame their own environment. They inherited it already mostly tamed by the gods that ruled there long ago. Their methods may only work because the environment is already mostly pacified in certain ways (it does have it's own dangers of course but they're very different to what other provinces deal with). Even if the entire Empire decided they were gonna terraform the Emerald Seas (or other provinces) to mirror the Peaks, ignoring the effort required to even try and the whole spiritual genocide thing that such a process would entail, it's questionable if they could even succeed. I imagine the most likely result would be either giving up or if they went really hard in on it, using high tier cultivators to burn the entire thing to the ground to rebuild from the ashes, they'd end up with something more similar to modern Golden Fields or Western Territories as a result.
 
Increasing infrastructure allows for specialization of labour and in the long run dramatically improves the quality of life for everyone! Stagnant adherence to ancient contracts made without regard for modern circumstances means things will never meaningfully improve!

I agree that infrastructure supports community growth which fosters cooperation leading specialization which can improve the community's quality of life.

And I agree with CRX's belief in the ordered city where the infrastructure (both legal and architectural) ensures that quality of life is at a standard where commoners aren't driven to vice by necessity.

However I reject the supporting assumption that Weilu infrastructure, division of labor or quality of life is inferior to those of the empire.

This assumption is exactly what Meng Dizi is railing against. It unilaterally assumes that the old ways don't alow specialization and that Imperial quality of life is an improvement over Weilu QOL. They're obviously sophisticated enough to have a political governing body, an economy strong enough to suffer taxes / tribute of valuable goods, and codified construction practices and development plans aligned with their eco friendly ethos.

The Ewoks Weilu, with their pro-nature lifestyle arts have no need for the Empire's "improvements."

Of course an imperialist seeking to develop real estate or extract resources would consider an indigenous polity's dedication to conservation (and keeping inferior beings as kin) to be "stagnant" and detrimental to long term progress. But again, that's the self centered assumption of imperial supremacy that Dizi is railing against.
The Hanyi concert arc showed LQ renewing contracts with land spirits and bargaining with those spirits for concessions. I dunno if the Weilu shared such practices, but that would belie the "stagnancy" of the ancient contracts.
 
Soooo a couple questions regarding our GF friends...

The Han hold the title of Marquis. And Marquis is betwen Duke and Count. The Guo are the Duke clan in charge of GF and equal to Cai, Bai, Xuan, Jin etc. The Guo are trying to keep the Han down because social ascension means Han are new Dukes and prob take a portion of Guo lands. Right?

Are the Fan, Counts under Guo?

What about the Gu? Are they barons or a branch family / vassal of Guo? I vaguely remember something about the Han patriarch trying to keep the Gu clan from rising in rank. Am I mistaken?
 
Soooo a couple questions regarding our GF friends...

The Han hold the title of Marquis. And Marquis is betwen Duke and Count. The Guo are the Duke clan in charge of GF and equal to Cai, Bai, Xuan, Jin etc. The Guo are trying to keep the Han down because social ascension means Han are new Dukes and prob take a portion of Guo lands. Right?

Are the Fan, Counts under Guo?

What about the Gu? Are they barons or a branch family / vassal of Guo? I vaguely remember something about the Han patriarch trying to keep the Gu clan from rising in rank. Am I mistaken?
The Han are Marquis which is an honored border count. And with granny tiger getting close to white the Han are starting to scare the Guo a bit.

On the other hand the Gu are old and powerful viscounts who were a branch clan of the old ducals the Lu. The Han are worried that they are gonna push to become counts and that the Guo are gonna help them so that the Han will have more competition and be unable threaten their rule over the duchy.

And yes the Fan are one of the only remaining agricultural counts in the province, old and powerful but not a threat to the Guo or Han.
 
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Soooo a couple questions regarding our GF friends...

The Han hold the title of Marquis. And Marquis is betwen Duke and Count. The Guo are the Duke clan in charge of GF and equal to Cai, Bai, Xuan, Jin etc. The Guo are trying to keep the Han down because social ascension means Han are new Dukes and prob take a portion of Guo lands. Right?

Are the Fan, Counts under Guo?

What about the Gu? Are they barons or a branch family / vassal of Guo? I vaguely remember something about the Han patriarch trying to keep the Gu clan from rising in rank. Am I mistaken?
The Gu are a viscount under the Han. However they may soon reach the level of count and thus be given more land to administer, land that would likely come from the Han. So the Han don't want the Gu to raise to count because that weakens them.
 
The winning plan was this, correct? Have we already started or are we still in the preliminaries?
Yes3​. Boulders and Bluster has started (that was the decision to direct the line of questioning between Wang Chao and Xuan Shi) and a Link up for Wang Clan Solutions has appeared (the choice for what kind of support the Wang would provide).

It looks like based on the current structure of the story that the Craftsmen's Tourney and Diao Clan Solutions will start soon, Boulders and Bluster will finish, and then probably finishing the Wang subplot before starting the Meng Clan subplot, as that limits the number of balls we're expected to juggle when strategizing for Ling Qi's actions and responses.
 
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Great!! Thanks a lot for the clarification @Zeful!

Boulders and Bluster: Wang Chao and the others in your little training group might not be friends precisely, but you've grown a little fond of them. Spend some of your free time at the tournament following up with some of them and their families. You could take this opportunity to introduce Xuan Shi too, he needs every good contact he can get. Characters: Wang Chao, Luo Zhong, Xuan Shi, Zhengui. Synergizes with Wang Clan Solutions

Btw... Luo Zhong... Uuuuummmmm... 🤔
 
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Wow. Meng Dizi would have hated the Cai.
1. Cai knows how to build in the ecosystem.
2. Cai knows extent of her knowledge and ability. And plan accordingly. Shenhua is very very forceful, but I don't think hubris is one of her sins.

So, no, Meng supported Cai for reason and Meng Dizi wouldn't fault said reason. They don't like her, but they can very well live with her.

PS. In a way Cai way is more damaging to Meng than standard imperial bullshit as there is less resistance. On other hand there is less resistance for reason.
 
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So analysis.
First, getting the correct context, we must begin at the end:
Last records of the Priest Meng Dizi, during the reign of Emperor Si, later executed for sedition against the Duke of Hui.
Emperor Si - This is before An/Inexorable Justice and what little we know suggests he was a relatively weak Emperor.
The author here is a priest - a keeper of tradition who's seeing those very traditions be defiled.

This is the last letter he wrote before he was executed for sedition, so you can presume there was a longer communication before it, and he is probably not cussing out the rulers of the province for fun.
Why must you pester me so, lordling. I am here on but obligation. I have no interest in whatever games it is you wish to play with the court.Leave this old man be!
Compelling religious elites to attend court is a classic show of power.
Dragging them into your politics is also classic - if he was wiser he'd give them some face and they'd content themselves with trivialities.

He did not and he became a challenge.
Hmph, your words are as gnats and I have swatted them all before. You lovers of imperium are all the same, you dismiss and deride our traditions. Primitive you call us. Not all tribes of men had the fortune to grow up in a cradle, built by god beasts and dragons, surrounded by an order which merely needed to be found, not built. When my ancestors were setting the seasons, yours were still playing the courts of dead gods. We speak to our land, sing with our spirits, craft our homes hand in hand with the gods of the land, and you call us weak for failing to dominate as you do. Where are your scales, dragon? Your horns, your whiskers, your claws. You seem to have misplaced all your lordly might.
While this rings true, it should be kept in mind that his speech overlooks the rather numerous and potent Beast Kings that Tsu had to beat into line(or those turned to his side), or that the Celestial Peaks' Dragon ruins are more hazard than boon, without a dragon's might and majesty to suppress them with.

He is calling out the reader - one who acts like a dragon, but is worse, because they are not mighty, yet behave like they are. Presumably a Hui.

Different contexts, different solutions.
The works of the dragon gods would likely consider Tsu's mix of diplomacy and force to be confusion, deceptive and generally weak. They would react with hostility.
Were humanity in the Emerald Seas to seek to solve the Emerald Seas like a puzzle with a singular solution, they would fail, for the riches of the forest can support many mighty Kings, all of who behave differently.


We are not weak, we are not soft. We accomplish more together with our land than we ever could in trampling it, moulding it to whatever momentary whims may not even last a century. Our schools of geomancy know this and need not your harsh lord of angles. The Nameless Mother is the world and the contours of her flesh persist for eons, changing only on a scale which only the longest lived may glimpse. It is not foolish to tap into that rather than try to impose some artificial order, invented by a man living in an artificial land.
This part here is more philosophical at first glance - clean lines and sharp angles or contouring to fit the terrain?

But if you think about it, the Celestial Peaks are situated in mountains, space is at a premium, where it is not hewn out of stone and rendered level by the dragon gods. They cannot follow natural contours, there are none to perceive. Space efficiency, well contained effects that do not verge onto those of older ruins. These are key to survival there.

That, and ancient city planners throughout the world tend to favor straight lines and clean angles - its just easier to organize large projects that way, even if things are never quite as simple as white room projections suggest. Even Imperial China made use of long straight lines and square angles for large scale constructions, for all that the principles of chinese geomancy suggests that such things will carry and project killing intent as opposed to gentler, curved and rounded forms(which tends to be reserved for interior usage, or smaller structures like pagoda towers which can be built both round and regular, whereas if you tried such a thing with a city wall its a cointoss whether your walls will meet correctly)

Actually leveling terrain to do so in a forest however, is a pain in the ass, you'd disturb everything and waste an appalling amount of resources simply to make it easier to draw lines on paper.
It will support more people, you say, but why need we expand like locusts on their breeding flight? There are enough of us to rule our lands, enough of us to see the safety of our settlements, enough of us to do our duties to the gods. What good precisely will come from doubling or tripling the numbers in our cities. Ah yes, more taxes and levies for the throne, yes how could I forget the most important factor.
Talking clean past each other here.
The Emerald Seas is an incredibly rich land. Trees abound with fruit, the soil is rich for crops, and the forest full of game.
The Celestial peaks are thin and near barren lands by contrast, all the living space is artificial and maintained by organized labors.

Sure, they'd inevitably expand beyond what they have, but the raiding culture of pre-imperial ES provided a vent for population excesses, and should they have the strength and prosperity, they could always renegotiate the deals from a better position - after all the ES style of spirit relations were always individual deals with individual spirits, the successors could forge newer terms to account for the newer age.

And at the same time Meng here is being uncharitable towards his conversational partner - the Peaks are aware of population control. Without it their geography is just plain uninhabitable...to be honest it looks a bit like a more experienced debater baiting out a known talking point and then using that to cast the other party in a bad light.
Your order is not wanted here, your help is not wanted here, least of all because we know it false. It has always been false, a trick to replace us, to change us. You made kings of the Xi and to what end, to subjugate our neighbors, who had been all but brothers for millenia. You couldn't even be content with tribute, nay your dogs demanded blood and control, and both they received.
We know this part. They came in, looked at the mess of factions left behind as the long lingering aftermath of the Weilu's internal conflicts, and decided to unify it by force.

Thats when the Hill Tribes and Cloud Nomads changed from sometimes friendly sometimes hostile to a more hostile facing, in the face of unrelenting hostility.

Meanwhile, there is likely no small amount of culture gap going on here - the pre-Imperial Emerald Seas practiced raiding culture, as did the Hill tribes and the Cloud Nomads. Some level of low level fighting would be practically constant...which as far as the Imperial culture is concerned would be banditry (yes, this is almost certainly still going on in Ebon Rivers, but they were never as weak as the Emerald Seas were, and joined voluntarily rather than by the sword), and responded to appropriately with extermination.


And then came your puppeteers, the Hui, who have made of our faith a laughingstock. The words of the Pure One have disappeared from the minds of men, and only memories of hedonism and the self aggrandizement of the Hui remain. It makes this old man's fists shake with rage to know that such arrogant fools call themselves Teachers, call themselves Pure. As if all it takes to rise above this cruel world is to never lift a finger in labor or hardship, to never know want or connection! As if the overcoming is not how one comes to know themselves and the delineation of their path.

A hint at the original forms of the Dream Cult.
Before it plunged into escapism.

Might be drawn from Taoist Mythology under the Three Pure Ones?
The First is the Great Tao/Great Path, the embodiment of the primordial universe where all was One.
The Second is the power which divides Yin and Yang, then further divides the elements, creating Law/Process.
The Third is the sage who teaches the Law and brings civilization.

In this setting, however, that cannot fit as-is, assuming the mythology of the Father and Mother are sufficiently universally true, but...we know the Weilu were Yin-Yang cultivators, and maybe they want to reach for the perfected union of the Mother and Father, as they sought before all the murder ruined it?

Would their higher philosophers then seek a perfected union of the two? Did they succeed and ascend to a higher plane?
Might be something to keep an eye on as we poke into the Dream cult business further.
Then there are our beasts, and O does the hypocrisy burn. The great clans are exempt from your distaste naturally, as you dare not face their strength. But for consorting with our kin, whose chains Tsu himself shattered the skulls of their gods, we are savage. You tell us it is a foul thing for children to see our companions as kin, that it degrades their humanity, degrades their loyalty to their own kind. In this the extent of your ignorance is revealed. The beasts which live beside us, which have helped us build,which have defended our homes against nomad, enraged spirit and conqueror alike, and have died beside us when we failed are far more our kin than men such as you in your far away mountains and keeps, ever and always taking from us.

But that is the trouble with imperials. You covet the aesthetic, the appearance of order and unity. Our ways offend for the simple fact that they are not your ways, not due to any true objection. You look upon us and are offended to not see a mirror. You will take the world and erase everything which does not match your soulless peaks if you could.
This part though.
This isn't just culture differences or differing environments.

They just don't like different.
But yes, come tell me more how you are improving our lands, bringing your roads and buildings which clash with the spirits and crush agreements older than the sage. Tell us how we are better packed into hovels where disease spirits and misery breed, in buildings which have no spirits, no bond to kith and kin who live within their walls. Tell us more about how barbarous our ways are in letting our children grow with companions four legged as well as two. Tell us that we are savages, little better than the wretched tribes of the Wall. How we will be much improved by answering to your lords and ministers rather than our councils and elders.

..We pay our tithes. We grant our tribute. But it is never enough, for you conquerors of Qin. All must be alike, all must submit, all must obey. Deviation punished.

We have no intentions of rebellion, we just wish you to leave us alone.
I'm kind of wondering at what point did a simple desire for imperium turn into contempt, or if it was the root for that ambition?
 
Peaks take after dragons.
Stronger or weaker, ruler and the ruled, interpersonal web of alliances, friendships, agreements and family bonds must seem like a nightmare to them.
Our view of the Peaks culture is almost certainly very negatively colored, but so far we have not seen any reason to assume that our view is inaccurate, instead of merely uncharitable.
 
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