Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
It's not a perfect system but it is based on real history, the northern silk road ran straight through the steppes. Cloud Nomads are people, they want the good stuff and they can recognize when there's opportunity to get better stuff by trading with others. Over time when one tribe raids another and captures a shipment of wood or metal the best use for it would be to trade it to another tribe along the trade route. It's basic supply and demand, goods flow the path of least resistance, and with established contact and mutually beneficial trade opportunities between the Emerald Seas and White Sky there's now an actual a reason for trade to move through the Wall. There'll be resistance but the pressure of the market isn't going away, like Jaromila and UGM might say.
And the Wall is the breadth of the Emerald Seas itself. Trade can flow without the aid of friendly Cloud Tribes but I doubt it's economical, why not just offer it to the people already living there and tell them they can trade up if they carry it to someone willing to take it further. You don't have to ally with the entire people to get a good trade route going, that's the cool thing about trade. Some would grumble among both Imperials and Clouds but trade and prosperity has a way of bending principle around it. Nomads raid to survive and prosper as much to stick it to their enemies, and trade is a lot safer than fighting. This wouldn't happen overnight and probably never completely, but it happened in Mongolia and it could happen here. We just need enough to get it going.
Did it happen in Mongolia? I'm far from an expert on the topic, but to my understanding the existence of the Silk Road and trade passing through Mongolia didn't end hostilities between them and their settled neighbours. There were periods of relative peace, but they were punctuated by conflict pretty regularly. Longer term peace came only when one side subjugated the other, like with the Mongols conquering China in the Yuan dynasty, or China controlling Mongolia under the Qing dynasty. Trade didn't prevent the Mongol confederation from trying to profit from raiding or even conquering their richer neighbours, nor did it stop their neighbours viewing them as a threat to be managed.
Going by our historical example, I'd expect that the existence of valuable trade routes to the south of the Empire would incentivise the Emerald Seas to try secure them by subjugating the Cloud Nomads, if the nature of the territory made directly conquering them unfeasible. Failing that they'd likely settle for attempting to dominate them economically/politically like China did with its nomadic neighbours, but that would likely lead to resentment and conflict so long as the Cloud Nomads remained independent. It's a better outcome than the full on cultural genocide that Shenhua seems to be aiming for at the moment, but it's well short of a peaceful coexistence between the two cultures.
To my understanding you are absolutely right, but that the Steppe nomads still remained prolific raiders antagonistic to their neighbors didn't stop trade and peace from having a meaningful presence. I doubt the Wall will ever be as ordered as the empire, at least until Xianxia!Genghis, but trade and imperial influence can coexist in a fashion with Cloud Nomad culture. "Well short of a peaceful coexistence" is pretty much the best Ling Qi can hope for, if it's still a sort of coexistence? Even if it isn't perfect it can still be good despite creating almost as many horrors as it solves, and even if it isn't worth trying a thought can still be spared to the benefits of diplomacy, trade and alternatives.
I think when talking about the cloud tribes it's important to remember that their culture is completely against the core tenants of what the empire believes in if that baby in the interlude had been unable to cultivate they would've left it on top of a mountain to die. The cloud tribes are not victimized innocence they are an incredibly aggressive culture that has been the one to attack the empire on multiple occasions throughout history and tend to destroy cities taking no prisoners. There are no good guys in this conflict but in my opinion the value of a culture can be most easily determined by how it treats the weakest members of its society and although the empireIs is by no means perfect at least there mortals are allowed to live.
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EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
@Apocalyptic Loon is spending his 4 points. Anyone else?
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- He
Does anyone remember when the next Cultivation vote will be?
Next turn, so as soon as the tournament is over.
- Location
- The Space Between
Tsu the Diviner was able to have Peace between Weilu lowlanders and the Cloud Tribes, and that Peace continued until the Weilu disappeared.
In their place came the Xi, Peaks and Throne backed expansionist warlords who did the imperial warlord thing until they overextended and fell apart from one well placed assassination.
Then the Hui, who were assholes about literally everything.
Now it's the Cai, and there's potential for there to be understanding again. The lack of Peace isn't because either society is incapable of non-violent interaction, but because it's in the best interests of the Warlords in each faction to reinforce the miscommunication.
The Emerald Seas are looking to consolidate the lands they have, and build tall rather than expand. Even those such as the Wang on the border simply don't have the manpower to push further forward, and there is enough unsettled land within Emerald Seas for colonies to continue to be seeded for quite a long time. Similarly, the Cloud Tribes have no inherent need for raiding Lowland settlements.
Relative Peace is possible.
if the undergrounders are empowered by Cultivator Conflict though, battles that tear wounds into Mother. Well. It's incredibly in their interest to encourage the awakening of a "sublime equivalent" and push for war between overlanders. No matter how the brutality plays out, they'll be profiting from it. That's worrying.
In their place came the Xi, Peaks and Throne backed expansionist warlords who did the imperial warlord thing until they overextended and fell apart from one well placed assassination.
Then the Hui, who were assholes about literally everything.
Now it's the Cai, and there's potential for there to be understanding again. The lack of Peace isn't because either society is incapable of non-violent interaction, but because it's in the best interests of the Warlords in each faction to reinforce the miscommunication.
The Emerald Seas are looking to consolidate the lands they have, and build tall rather than expand. Even those such as the Wang on the border simply don't have the manpower to push further forward, and there is enough unsettled land within Emerald Seas for colonies to continue to be seeded for quite a long time. Similarly, the Cloud Tribes have no inherent need for raiding Lowland settlements.
Relative Peace is possible.
if the undergrounders are empowered by Cultivator Conflict though, battles that tear wounds into Mother. Well. It's incredibly in their interest to encourage the awakening of a "sublime equivalent" and push for war between overlanders. No matter how the brutality plays out, they'll be profiting from it. That's worrying.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Yep, still need 2 more points
The Weilu were able to manage the threat of the Cloud Nomads but from what we know I'd be hesitant to call it peace, certainly not a peace built on understanding between the two sides. From the Blue Mountain Sect Promotional:
And we get the Cloud Nomads view of the situation in The Sky That Fell:
To me it reads much more as if the Weilu beat them into submission, and then began steadily expanding into territory that the Cloud Nomads considered their own. This would probably have been the absorption of the Hill Tribes into the Emerald Seas, at least some of which would have considered themselves more akin to the Cloud Nomads than the Weilu, and I doubt this process was peaceful. Tsu the Diviner confined them to the Wall, but that was likely already a reduction of what the Cloud Nomads once considered their territory. The Cai reaching a similar understanding probably means beating down on the Cloud Nomads and expanding to wherever they are confident of holding rather than a peaceful resolution.
And while the Cloud Nomads may have no inherent need to raid the lowland settlements, in that they can survive without doing so, that doesn't mean that they won't. Most nomadic societies could have survived without raiding their sedentary neighbours, but they did so for wealth and the luxuries their own lifestyle didn't allow them to produce. That's on top of the long standing cultural enmity between them and the Emerald Seas, it's telling that the last two great confederations in Cloud Nomad history have been to fight against them.
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- the internet
You're forgetting that the only reason the empire can protect mortals from spirits and the elements are the formation techs that allow the empire to expand its territory and keep spirits out. The barbs don't let their young die when they can't cultivate. There's no other option. The empire is simply that affluent, that they can support mortals. Also the barbs live in the mountains and other areas that are very harsh, very hard to survive in. They would live in more survivable conditions if the empire hadn't pushed them out of course.
You always have a choice they decided their right to self governance and to practice their culture was worth sacrificing the majority of their children I'm not saying that that was a good choice but it was still a choice.Also the Empire didn't even exist yet when they got pushed out unless I'm remembering the timeline wrong.
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- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
I'll throw in two points. Gotta spend them somewhere. Just remember to vote for tree when you can. Tree forever.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
One of Tree. One of Tree. One of TREE. ONE OF TREE.
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- the internet
You're implying that empire armies give barbs a choice of always joining the empire rather than just blowing them away for the "barbarian scum" they are. I assure you they don't.
And I assure you that the cities that they destroy didn't get a choice about whether or not they wanted to retreat or join the barbarians.As I said there are no good guys in this type of conflict.
- Location
- the internet
True. Just pointing out the holes in your argument.
Roll